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I've been attending a Quaker meeting, it's very nice. It turns out, a change of architecture was one major thing I needed to be comfortable in a religious space again. Unprogrammed worship still takes some getting used to but it's a good challenge and a good break from the rest of the week.
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Jul 15, 2022 23:23
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| # ¿ May 21, 2024 12:52 |
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Gaius Marius posted:How was the oatmeal  It's a very old meeting so they aren't doing post-meeting coffee for now. Maybe I could bring some instant packets in a month or so.
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Jul 15, 2022 23:56
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BattyKiara posted:Welcome fellow Friend! hello friend, looking forward to first day <------- knows the lingo
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Jul 16, 2022 23:44
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This is really my own ignorance showing, as I have barely been exposed to un-Protestant Christian practice at all. My preconceived notion of joining a religious community is that you kind of show up, ask to join, and alright sure as long as you follow the rules. Having e.g. mental illness would be a good reason to join, not a reason to be barred. Was this impression ever the case? Writing it out, it seems very impractical, but I guess I had just never heard very much about the modern process of joining a community. Are you interested to enlighten me?
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Jul 20, 2022 07:15
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Thirteen Orphans posted:So how one joins a religious order/community is slightly different for each community, but they are FAR more rigorous in admitting candidates than you thought. I'll give a summary, then tell a bit of my story (sorry old timers who know it all already) to put it all into context. Firstly, the reason mental illness can be a reason to reject a candidate is because when you join a religious community it's akin to joining a family. If you have a mental illness that's untreated or poorly managed, you could have trouble living in community. But back to how one joins. Usually the prospective candidate starts in prayer and introspection to help guide where they want to go. Do they have a monastic heart? If they are a man do they feel called to the priesthood? Often people have a spiritual director to help discern this as well. Once this preliminary work has been worked on the prospective candidate will start researching different orders/communities. If they see one they like, they may reach out to the vocations director. From there, depending on the type of community, they may have a number of meetings with the vocations director, some visits to their monastery or community house, and if everyone gets the sense there may be a "vocation" (from the Latin word for "call") they may apply to the community. If they got this far, the next step is collecting letters of recommendation, having a medical exam done, being interviewed by members of the community, and having a massive battery of psychological tests done. That's pretty average. Who decides to accept is different for each community, some have a council, others one guy. This is very illuminating. I'm going to marinate on it a bit and may have additional questions later. The overlap all of these organizations have with the (new and improved) process of accession to the priesthood was new to me. TOOT BOOT posted:I mean, I kinda get it in a way, but 'We as as a religious order don't want to take any responsibility for the vulnerable' is a somewhat alarming position for them to take I would assume the classical Catholic answer here is "we have other ways to take you under the wing" but I agree that a nominally all-encompassing worldwide religious organization should have a way for just about anyone to pursue dedicated religious life. A specific religious order doesn't have the same nominal responsibility I think. e: oops Ohtori Akio fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Jul 21, 2022 |
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Jul 21, 2022 05:19
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I think I should clear something up, since I went and made it personal. I don’t think anybody was wrong to reject me (anymore), it just royally sucks and I hope there’s a community for me. I feel a little embarrassed that my inquiries about your personal journey could be seen as questioning or doubting the validity of your trust in those institutions. I hope you find or form the right crew for you, deeply and truly. If you're open to suggestions, the Catholics could really use an order of empty-hand reclusive warrior monks IMO. Give it some thought.
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Jul 22, 2022 23:33
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Nessus posted:It would seem easy for Francis to obey the commands of the Pope. After all, he sees him regularly - I believe they correspond. this post made by the benedict #sixteen loyalist society
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Jul 22, 2022 23:44
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Thirteen Orphans posted:This is a true story: My father, 8th dahn Hapkido at the time of his death, was not at all religious and not super happy about me thinking about religious life. He very seriously asked me to consider making my own religious order based around training Hapkido, specifically saying it could be the “Catholic Shaolin.” always listen to sensei (dunno equivalent word for a korean art). he was right OT: I am a very secular and non-nicene christian, think a tolstoyan anti-mystical conversion experience, but calling everyone brother, sister, etc is one of my favorite elements of christian (and other) practical tradition. it applies to everyone imo
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Jul 23, 2022 00:05
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Gaius Marius posted:Thread poll. Are aliens real? I hope there are other sentient lives out there, and I hope they and us both understand selfless love by the time we ever make contact. I think it is pretty likely though yeah, even if we never detect them.
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Jul 23, 2022 03:28
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Gaius Marius posted:Odd thing to say. If Ikuhara hadn't seen that UFO Utena wouldn't exist as an aspiring good quaker, i choose to interpret the ufo as ikuhara receiving divine leading
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Jul 23, 2022 04:55
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Earwicker posted:since we don't have confirmation of alien civilizations even existing in the first place, we have absolutely no historical record of how spacefaring civilizations interact with one another. every element of Dark Forest theory is based entirely on human behavior and how humans civilizations have interacted with one another and with other species' on Earth. I agree and would like to elaborate with one more assumption of DFT: that the mechanisms of terrestrial empire also work like that in space. What if it turns out that projecting power to other solar systems simply is not economical, let alone economical on the timeframe required to pursue as a matter of policy?
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Jul 23, 2022 20:40
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The unfortunate truth about any kind of clear mental illness-related filter (be it bipolar, any harmful compulsion at all, or something else entirely) is that, as typically implemented, they select for people in denial about their issues and people lying about their issues. Granted, the third-party screenings are intended to help with this - and they are always quite fallible. There's no substitute for caring for your own. Re:cloning: what are the takes of the thread (or your institution, if they've mentioned a stance) on its moral permissibility? I have idly fancied the idea of pursuing that as a path to parenthood some day (if the technology matures), but it'd be kind of an awkward conversation to have with the kid and make clear that I don't expect them to Be Like Me in any way. I assume that human cloning in the general sense would need to become socially acceptable before we could entertain sending clone-laden spacecraft out in to the cold expanse.
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Jul 24, 2022 01:21
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Gaius Marius posted:Mostly that transporting a Human in the form of Data would be easier than keeping a brain, or worse a whole body on ice for what could be a couple billion years. I suspect the legal default would be personhood for all full clones. Legal wrangling would probably have to take place before anything remotely similar to a full body is allowed to be industrialized, and frankly the institutional churches are already on top of this legal conversation.
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Jul 24, 2022 03:14
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Nessus posted:I once got someone mad as heck by suggesting, while we were brainstorming things that humans in a sci-fi setting might be 'uniquely good at,' that perhaps for humans it would be "peaceful diplomacy and reconciliation." Our actual conclusion was environmental and dietary tolerance, cardiovascular endurance, and throwin' poo poo Do you ever think about how much of our brain is devoted to eyeballing ballistic trajectories in a hurry?
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Jul 25, 2022 08:44
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The intergenerational lifespan thing is one very good reason I plan to not own any pets that naturally live more than 20 years or so. My potential kids don't need to worry about mother's bird that knows a lot of slurs, when they could be worrying about their own lives.
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Jul 26, 2022 00:11
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tortoises rule, it is pretty cool to be the caretaker of something that by rights will be trundling along chewing on veggies for decades longer than yourself
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Jul 26, 2022 06:39
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I've been typing out a few responses defending the honour of traditional Lutheran practice which does not include conches but am realizing I'm just an anti-symbolic anti-iconic anti-worship music type. The comparison to UU feels apt; adding more symbols and avenues of practice appeals to many people, and pointedly turns me away. I would probably have acute anxiety if I attended, but that's just as true of herchurch as it is of UU as it is of a mainline Protestant church.
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Aug 18, 2022 21:39
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I just attended one uu service and had fight or flight the entire time. I believe this counts as 'discernment'.
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Aug 18, 2022 22:31
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I generally prefer the Christian doctrine of judgment that goes like this: at some point you will have to give a full account of your life and choices. What comes after that? Not as productive to ponder imo.
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Aug 20, 2022 01:17
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My friend James McGill on the television is an innocent man op
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Aug 20, 2022 03:14
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Yeah while I am very pro- reconciliation with yourself and reconciliation with God, the idea that going to jail represents reconciliation with your fellow man has always struck me a bit off. The fact that there's plenty for a reformed person to do outside of jail, the fact of the inhumanity of prisons, but most importantly to me the fact that the State is not an infallible stand-in for the wronged party, or even society as a whole. Perhaps you feel that we should treat it as such in the here and now, but that's not what I pick up from the Gospels.
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Aug 20, 2022 23:09
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church owns. post-church fellowship? owns too
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Aug 21, 2022 20:43
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Faintly related: A while back I picked up the Ruden translation of the Gospels. It's a hot take, and maybe the most controversial bit is John 1:1: Sarah Ruden posted:At the inauguration was the true account, and this true account was with god, and god was the true account. This is closer to my personal feeling than 'the Word', but I think I would just say 'the Truth'. Jesus of Nazareth knew, lived, and ministered the Truth, so he meaningfully was the Truth. In English, how would you render Logos? Do you believe that word conveys such complexity that it should be left Logos? Does your institution have a formal take here?
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Aug 25, 2022 03:51
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When I interact with someone, I ask them how their day is going, for instance. I make some light conversation, perhaps bring up any business I had for them, and resolve that. Then I go about my way. Usually religion doesn't come up, unless it's a topic of serious discussion among friends. I cannot say that someone's metaphysical beliefs have caused me to no longer want to say hi, hello, how's it going, etc. Perhaps you mean to ask about a harassing proselytizer, but I haven't dealt with one in years and years. Either way, I'm sorry to hear of your discomfort with the religious. I feel discomfort with many religious spaces and forms or expressions of religion, as well.
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Aug 30, 2022 19:32
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If someone feels a particular afterlife doctrine is a cut and dry matter of Christian faith, my strong suggestion is to go read the Gospels.FishBulbia posted:Many people who regularly attend religion have told me that their specific form of worship is the correct one and they believe it will give them better judgement after they die. Do you quiz everyone you know on the details of their faith?
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Aug 31, 2022 00:48
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There are some denominations which are very closely associated with an ethnic or national identity, and some of these even have incompatible doctrine. That's a fair point I guess! But it really just isn't as deep as you're making it. Almost all places of worship are stoked for someone to drop by and learn more; my fellow posters have explained the depth of nuance that so many religions have about the hereafter. The institution I am associated with pointedly has no dogma on this issue. I earnestly hope you find the peace you're looking for, whatever that looks like. I spent many years without religion and deeply uncomfortable with the idea, the violence it has been associated with, the hate I saw it inspire, the specific teachings I was given. There's a whole lot of religion out there. If you want to ask follow up questions and do not feel good about continuing the conversation in-thread, my PMs are open.
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Aug 31, 2022 06:28
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the cat on a scooter is correct in my theological outlook
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Sep 6, 2022 03:53
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My feeling that 'salvation' is 'how to properly live' is a lot simpler: when I pay attention to and earnestly attempt to follow Jesus of Nazareth, I am a better part of the world and much happier. I was in a very practical sense saved, and it is an ongoing process. I feel it may be ongoing for as long as I live. Whenever I speculate about what happens when I die, it feels a bit misplaced. BK, you have my prayer, such as it is.
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Sep 6, 2022 20:00
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Valiantman posted:Alright, regarding Paul's letter to Romans and how it is about salvation and what salvation even is. I cannot speak to Bar Ran Dun, but there's a real answer in my case: I attach a lot less importance to the Pauline epistles and associated traditions than a mainstream Christian. My faith is centered on the Gospel teachings, and as NikkolasKing mentioned, especially focused on the moral-ethical core present within; this is pretty common to liberal American Christians, though my personal catalyst for coming back to faith was Tolstoy's writings.
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Sep 7, 2022 17:31
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an unprogrammed quaker meeting is not totally dissimilar to silent empty meditation and i gotta say i am a much bigger fan of that than like, trying to clear my head while someone cuts an asmr track in my headphones
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Sep 15, 2022 06:20
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BattyKiara posted:You are welcome to join our silent online meetings. Drop me a line any time you feel like hanging out with us for silence. I've got a very quiet weekly but I sure wouldn't mind an extra once in a while. Online may be an adjustment for me, I think I fall into the boomerish camp of 'how are you supposed to get in the zone in front of a computer'.
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Sep 15, 2022 18:22
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Arsenic Lupin posted:This is why I stopped trying to be a Quaker (attended youth group, went to the preparation classes, panicked.) It's too hard work for me; I need something to focus on. We once did an informal survey, and every single kid knew how many panes of glass there were in the windows, and how many bolts in the beams in the ceiling. One of us said his parents said they used to count ladies' hats. I think a lot of people do something active that is non-disruptive. One guy at my meeting uses Tibetan prayer beads, I've thought about learning to pray the Rosary and silently praying one during Meeting. If I'm having trouble reaching that real silent center I form a little prayer to myself, or reflect on what's troubling me. It's definitely a challenge though and I can see how people have gotten turned off of it. I may even find it hard to keep up with over the long run. Cyrano4747 posted:I have no doubt that's a quaker thing, but as someone who grew up Catholic I can say there's similar stuff there. In my Baptist upbringing, I ended up reading the pew Bible a lot. I think that may have been where I cottoned on to the uh, discontinuity between white Baptist preaching and the Gospel message.
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Sep 16, 2022 02:52
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I was so grateful for my friend's (both senses) programmed meeting that had hymnals. this is a fundamentally sound conclusion but if it said mysticism on the tin i never would have tried it. turns out mysticism owns imo
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Sep 16, 2022 04:40
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I enjoyed hearing about that a lot, Lupin. The tensions inherent to long-form silent worship are really interesting to me. I guess I'm very grateful to have a very discerning meeting.
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Sep 16, 2022 05:23
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BattyKiara posted:Wow, I have never heard of a Friend's Meeting that is no Queer friendly. I guess it really takes all kinds...But I am saddened to learn about it. Everyone Welcome! and God is love, so all love is good! are so important to me. My own was in a state of internal tension over this for about eleven years.
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Sep 16, 2022 17:06
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I will always be sympathetic to projects of de-mysticalizing a religion's ideas, primarily because stuff like that was the path I took to realizing mysticism owns. That said it's better optics to do it with a tradition you were born into. e: Bar Ran Dun posted:Well and some people don’t want civic religion and culture criticized as religion, too. Critique (for instance) Marxism as a religious phenomenon and certain audiences blow their top. Ohtori Akio fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 22:18
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Josef bugman posted:I mean if be interested to hear this tbh. There are things people call Marxism that are very religious in nature and there are things which are not. Marx's writings are very tightly wound up in his time and what he thought would happen relatively soon after his time; he was essentially making falsifiable claims with some value judgments attached. Not religious. The Marxist critical approach is also not inherently religious: it's just a tool for talking about things. Marxism as in the family of social-political-ideological movements that swept across continents over the last century-and-change, Marxism as in the ideological foundation that states rest their legitimacy on, Marxism as in the civil religion of those states, Marxism as in something people meaningfully 'convert' to and adopt as their own moral foundation: these are similar enough to religion that I find it a useful comparison. It is why, for instance, I ended up no longer identifying with Marxism; my moral foundation isn't a match for it, I already have an incompatible one. I have primarily seen this point of view exposited from a Christian point of view, I think because some Christian writers are sensitive to the fact that the Marxist moral foundation is rather close to the Christian moral foundation. It's polemic (and a sermon), but I really like and agree with what MLK had to say on the topic: https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/can-christian-be-communist-sermon-delivered-ebenezer-baptist-church
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Sep 19, 2022 04:12
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Josef bugman posted:I can see where you are coming from on this, but I would personally disagree. The definition you are using renders there no difference between "philosophy" and "religion" and I'd disagree on that. Many religions do possess an essential philosophy but I would argue also contain elements of difference from them. Usually in terms of rituals and other accoutrements. I guess you could say that from where I stand, philosophy is a stripped-down updated form of a religion. It's not a dig against a particular philosophy to say it fills that particular role in the lives of many, with fewer cool robes etc. quote:What is your moral foundation if you had to lay it out? Universal brotherhood, dignity, redemptibility of humankind.
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Sep 19, 2022 17:22
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zonohedron posted:I recently read Dominion, by Tom Holland. It's about how Christianity came to dominate not just Europe, but how Europeans thought about... stuff. Everything. At one point he talks about how Europeans (missionaries or not) had a hard time understanding religious practices in India, because there wasn't A Religion, there were... religious things that some people did. The British campaign to ban "suttee" (sati, the practice of widows being exiled or committing suicide upon their husband's death) was shaped by religious leaders who wanted their religious movements to be respected by the British - look, we have a religion too! it doesn't like the things yours doesn't like! - and the British, who expected religions to look like Christianity, were perfectly fine with that. Where would you land on a movement with a very clear Christian origin and center, and easily identifiable common values and practices, but which pointedly refuses to adopt a formal creed or rules per se? To be specific, I guess it's not off the mark to say liberal Quakers may each have a religion, but the movement overall does not; but the Quakers I've spoken to on the topic have kinda pointedly said no, Quakerism is a religion, as they also practice a religion which is not itself Quakerism. I would tend to lean towards (say) Unitarian Universalism not being a religion, there's just not enough commonality of value or practice there, except insofar as the Protestant schedule and architecture works pretty well for them. e: not assuming zono's take Ohtori Akio fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Sep 20, 2022 |
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Sep 20, 2022 20:36
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Prurient Squid posted:I think I need to work on my forgiveness. Me too. I really like the Our Father's meditative approach here: accepting that our own need for forgiveness is an ongoing concern is very helpful for developing the capacity to forgive others, as an ongoing concern. I'm sure someone with a cool hat has worded that more neatly before.
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Sep 27, 2022 18:05
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