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not remotely a physics person but in my experience many scientists come down more on the side of "yeah the universe is super complex and amazing and sure could be some sort of God(s)" and are more agnostic or at least respectful of religious beliefs and spirituality, as opposed to a bunch of militant atheists or whatever. Gould's non-overlapping magisteria is a good read on that and kind of reflects my own views. https://caspar.bgsu.edu/~courses/4510/Classes/48A078B0-8402-4995-9161-A2C418612C75_files/Gould_97.pdf we can understand a lot about the natural (physical, touchable, material) world through science, but there are some things science just can't do--ethics, morality, spirituality. those are outside of science. science and religion only really butt heads if you're trying to make scientific claims about religion or vice versa.
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Aug 24, 2023 01:20
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unrelated but I was talking to a coworker last week and they were talking about how when they came out of the closet their grandma drove them out to the reservation to talk to some family elders because being two-spirit is sacred and there are certain cultural expectations. a big one is that two-spirit people are looked to to interpret dreams; people that have both male and female souls have a unique perspective and they're who you go to to interpret dreams.
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Aug 24, 2023 01:25
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Ohtori Akio posted:i finally sat down with this one and hell, it's good In many of the classes I teach, the first day I have the students do some brainstorming on what "science" is and kind of come up with a definition. it's always interesting to see what they say. I like to emphasize that science is "a tool for understanding the natural (physical) world" and that it cannot answer all questions. You need ethics, morality, etc to conduct scientific research and apply scientific knowledge. An example I give is that a "simple" solution to address climate change would be just to Thanos snap half of humanity out of existence. That's hardly moral, though!
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Sep 1, 2023 04:51
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Tias posted:I know you're making a philosophical point, but as someone with a climate-specific degree, I have to say this isn't really true. The earth could hold even more people than it does now, the problem is overproduction, overextraction and overconsumption. Eliminate capitalism, hyperconsumption and meat-eating and we'd be able to hold a couple billion more. Yeah I just use it as a quick example that also is a pop culture reference. You're right that population in and of itself is not the issue, it's resources. For every human to live (and consume resources) at the level of developed nations, it'd take something like four Earth's worth of resources. The philosophical point is that science is not a belief system, it's a tool and it can only answer questions about the natural (physical) world. Bringing it up is also a way for me to sort of validate students' spiritual or religious beliefs--your belief system, whatever it is, is important and relevant to science! NikkolasKing posted:Possibly my favorite part about the Jurassic Park novel is Malcom's long speech about how humans grossly overestimate their importance to the planet. Climate change and nuclear war won't destroy the planet, just us. Well, too bad for us. The planet has survived species extinction before, it will do so again. Yeah, Earth's history is one of mass extinctions, though the current man-made one is much more rapid. On a geological timescale stuff will bounce back. edit: I'm not trying to be flippant here or minimize the severity of the climate crisis and the incredible damage it will cause. I didn't really intend to start a climate derail edit: a more serious thought experiment would be a worldwide one-child policy for a few generations. But, again, population control by itself (or an overemphasis on it) misses the point. Gotta be a kitchen sink approach. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Sep 1, 2023 |
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Sep 1, 2023 07:52
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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:e: I feel as though the explicit divide between science and religion also raises some interesting room for thought vis a vis creation mythology. Synthesizing some of the things I have learned here, I can see why members of a religious sect that perceives its creation myth as, also, scientific fact, can have such a difficult time encountering religions with multiple creation myths. I experienced a lot of pushback that went, "obviously your religion is fake, they can't even keep their story straight with how their 'Gods' made humanity. Nailed it, case closed." I was raised in a mainstream Protestant tradition so we didn't read the Genesis creation story as literal historical fact. The way we were taught is to read the Bible for "truth," which is not the same as "literally true." Genesis can contain important truths about the nature of Creation, God, and humanity, but it doesn't need to be a literal historical retelling of events for it contain those truths. That's one major way of studying myths: a myth is a story meant to communicate important ideas and truths, but it's not necessarily meant to be understood as verbatim fact. re: science and faith, my grandmother had a pithy saying related to that. Something along the lines of "God wouldn't have given us brains if He didn't want us to use 'em." Which might be drawn from the three pillars of Anglicanism: Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. e: A Bad King posted:I'm going to get this book. yeah this might be a good winter time read Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Sep 1, 2023 |
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Sep 1, 2023 15:46
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video games is the closest thing that goons have to a shared religion so im gonna go with that.Ohtori Akio posted:LF has a case for martyrdom i was irl friends with mccaine for a short while and let me tell you, he was no saint
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Sep 10, 2023 01:35
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With fall here and winter coming shortly (for those of us in the nothern hemisphere anyway) I'm looking for stuff to read during the cold. Any recommendations? Reading LAB's posts I think I should get into some Tillich or similar but idk where to start in particular.
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Oct 2, 2023 18:59
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Gaius Marius posted:Christian books? Religious books? Philosophy books? Or just book books? yes edit: not really being flippant here, I'm open to any recommendations. Just lookin for books
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Oct 2, 2023 21:27
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Hmm I might check one of those out, thanks! I've been listening to a couple podcasts and doing some reading on the Russian Revolution, so another book on my winter reading list is the first volume of Kotkin's biography of Stalin
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Oct 4, 2023 05:21
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Spacegrass posted:I just need some advice on this. Is it OK to be Christian and Muslim at the same time? I do believe Jesus is my savior but Islam and the Koran really help me. Idk but some people say it was the last word of God till the end. But that would mess up the Book of Mormon I think; if thats true Are you Mormon/LDS then, or are you just saying more generally that the Book of Mormon claiming to be the last revelation would conflict with the Koran being the final revelation? You might be interested in the Baha'i faith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%CA%BC%C3%AD_Faith They believe that Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, and others are all different manifestations of God. They might have some insights or perspectives that are useful to you, I'm not really familiar with the Baha'i other than they seem pretty chill? I don't recall we have any Baha'i regulars posting in this thread but maybe a lurker will pop up. Small-o orthodox Christianity and Islam are not really compatible, no. They have much in common, of course, but the fundamental declarations of faith of each are mutually exclusive. Christians believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God made flesh and the most important of God's messengers. Muslims believe Jesus was an important prophet, but he wasn't resurrected on the third day and wasn't divine, Muhammad is the most important and final messenger. At the core of Islam is the concept of Tawhid, oneness of God, which conflicts with the Christian belief in a Trinity. Personally I would put the LDS outside of orthodox Christianity because Mormon theology is quite different than other Christians in some fundamental ways. I don't know how LDS theology and Islam would interact, I'm sure there's been stuff written on it. edit: my own personal perspective is that the Christian God as I know them would welcome a faithful Muslim into Heaven, but I tend toward a universalist theology. Not necessarily in the sense that everyone will get to Heaven eventually, but more in a The Great Divorce sense. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 03:30
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it's largely my Protestant upbringing but I've always been really uncomfortable with intercession of saints, the idea that you can pray to saints who are hanging out in Heaven and they'll put in a good word for you with the Father. I'm of course being flippant and horribly flattening the theology, so apologies. I'm probably Too drat Lutheran but it feels like edging into idolatry to ask saints for help when you could just pray to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost directly. otoh I think telling stories of the Saints and holding them up as examples is very rad and cool. more dog-headed saints, the goodest boys, we should all strive to be like them. even the saints who are probably mythical like the dog-headed saints have value, I feel like. that's how mythology works--even if a myth isn't literal truth, it can be metaphorical truth and there are important lessons we can learn edit: Liquid Communism posted:It rather has to because modern Christianity is already shedding believers at a massive rate because it cannot articulate a benefit in their lives. Modern culture has rather rejected the concept of holy suffering for the sake of your temporal lords in exchange for post-mortem benefits, having seen rather conclusively since the Industrial Revolution that suffering only profits said lords further and further while their own people die early of preventable conditions and the diseases of overwork. It will not help if they reach the question of 'why is this God deserving of worship' and come up with no better answer than 'I'd rather spend my Sundays at home, thanks'. idk, I think a lot of it is also political, at least in the US. you can't convincingly separate evangelical Christianity in the US from all the culture war bullshit, and the more progressive flavors of Christianity often get lumped in with the culture warriors. I've encountered this a good bit as a queer person of faith. most of my gay and trans friends are baffled that I identify as Christian because for them, Christianity is synonymous with the loud evangelical bigot crowd. a lot of those reactions are very visceral and personal. it's not productive to try and "well, actually" queer people on how the ELCA is very accepting and does a lot of work to help refugees from Central America or whatever. there are plenty of progressive and even leftist flavors of Christianity but they are absolutely drowned out by the bigots, at least in America. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Oct 22, 2023 |
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Oct 22, 2023 12:14
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how dare you have a different religious perspective and experience than i did
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Oct 22, 2023 13:59
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sounds like you might be looking for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution which is pretty much along my beliefs as a scientist as well the big mainstream Protestant churches as well as Catholicism are down with evolution and happy to chat about dinosaurs with you. I'm not sure about Orthodoxy.
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Oct 24, 2023 02:27
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Yeah basically all of the mainstream Protestant denoms in the US have splintered over the last several decades, largely over ordaining women and then same sex marriage. The Methodists were the most recent. Churches that are strongly affirming of LGBTQ people are usually pretty forward about it and will say so on their website or their church signage or whatever. edit: you might appreciate that Anglican theology is often described as a "three legged stool" consisting of Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. Wesleyan (Methodist) traditions add Experience (lived experience). Wesleyanism is an offshoot of Anglicanism, they both value Reason as a core component of their particular theological perspectives. Wesleyans/Methodists are more low-churchy compare to the heavier ritual and liturgy in many Anglican churches. Wesleyans also were big in the Temperance movement so they serve grape juice at Communion and not wine. I guess a related question is, do you enjoy silly lace vestments, elaborate ritual and liturgy? Then you probably want to look into Anglican or ELCA churches. It varies from individual church to church but both Anglicans and the ELCA can be fairly high-church in liturgy. I always appreciated my devoutly Anglican grandma's saying about evolution, science, and Christianity: "the good Lord wouldn't have given us brains if He didn't want us to use 'em." edit2: her other pithy saying was "the most dangerous people on God's green Earth are they that know not that they know not." Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 03:25
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for whatever reason Episcopalian worship cringe is just so much more cringe. maybe because they are the WASPiest liberal types on the planet
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Oct 25, 2023 00:13
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Killingyouguy! posted:Speaking of, there's a church near me and the building simply looks really cool, how can I find out if they'd be chill with me entering just to check it out ask? the answer is probably yes. not trying to be flippant, I'm sure if you called the church office and asked "hey could you show me around your church building i think it looks really cool" they'd be happy to do so
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Oct 25, 2023 01:20
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there's cringe in the sanctuary
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Oct 25, 2023 03:33
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its only weird if it tastes good. they're supposed to taste like suffering, it's part of the ritual. you aren't supposed to enjoy eating Jesus
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Oct 25, 2023 06:32
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mawarannahr posted:doesn't sound as fun tbh. I hear many of them just use grape juice :/ yeah the Methodists in particular serve grape juice, some other more Evangelical type groups will as well. the Methodists were very much into the Christian Temperance movement so they don't serve wine for that reason. American alcohol abuse was incredible in that time period, I'm no prude wrt drinking but it seems like a pretty reasonable thing for Christians to be a part of at the time.
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Oct 25, 2023 21:37
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keep in mind that many Protestants don't believe that the bread and wine literally transform into the Body and Blood of Christ as Catholics do, so for them it's more symbolic or spiritual and the actual physical substance of the communion elements is less important This is reducing a lot of complexity but basically: Catholics (and I think Orthodox?) believe in transubstantiation, that the bread and wine becomes the actual Body and Blood most mainstream Protestants generally believe in consubstantiation or that there's a "Real Presence" of Christ in the elements, the elements don't become literal blood and flesh but there's a spiritual essence or they're both body/blood and bread/wine simultaneously some Protestant groups believe communion is entirely symbolism and done "in remembrance"
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Oct 25, 2023 22:23
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Killingyouguy! posted:This Paul guy sure did write a lot of epistles devastated to learn that the Pauline Epistles were not written by a badass disciple lady named Pauline
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Oct 26, 2023 22:14
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efb but yeah talk to the priest about Communion, you probably shouldn't partake until you're baptized but the priest will be able to provide better guidance. he can give you more specifics on what to expect but people are gonna be super excited and welcoming you should expect to be doted upon by a bunch of little old church ladies. this isn't an Episcopal thing it's just a Church thing in general. the elderly church ladies love visitors and they will insist on making sure you eat a bunch of stuff with coffee after the service
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Nov 1, 2023 23:47
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awesome, sounds like you're coming at this very much the right way then. as always  this is a very chill and supportive crew and we'd love to hear about your journey as much as you care to share.also sounds like the church/denomination is a good fit for you, hopefully the congregation is as well! how do you feel about lace, silly hats, and incense? edit: and yeah. most denominations require you to at least undergo the ritual drowning initiation rite before you're allowed to eat God Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 01:36
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that's sincerely awesome! always great to hear people itt finding a faith community that feels like "home" to them. I was baptized in an Episcopal church and they're one of the places I feel most comfortable alongside ELCA and UMC churches. Glad to hear your local parish is a good fit for you!
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Nov 5, 2023 21:48
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hell yeah your story keeps getting more heartwarming. glad to hear it I'm curious how many people your age (I'm assuming you're in the mid 30s+ typical goon range) were in attendance? That was always the bummer for me about mainstream Protestant churches, attendance by younger people can be a bit thin
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Nov 6, 2023 01:32
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mawarannahr posted:Do they have something like icons? idk about NomChompsky's church parish in particular (Episcopalians and other Protestants can vary a lot between individual parishes) but icons are a thing for Catholics* and Episcopalians/Anglicans but they're much less emphasized than in Orthodox traditions, in my experience. generally the denoms that are down with venerating saints are also down with veneration of icons. Lutherans and other Protestants generally don't venerate saints, icons or relics. To my knowledge the Anglicans are the only Protestants that do that, which goes to their roots as a deliberate fusion of Catholic and Reformed theologies *not a Catholic, I could well be wrong on my understanding of Catholic theology on icons. apologies
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Nov 6, 2023 22:31
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don't forget that the Saints are chilling in Heaven with perfectly spherical bodies edit: obligatory turn on your monitor / much like goons harharhar
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Nov 6, 2023 22:48
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awesome congrats! fast trackin, straight from baptism into priesthoot training, nice. two new Episcopal posters reminds me I should do some digging into my grandpa's history, he went to an Episcopal boarding school and never talked about it. I wasn't even aware of it until after he'd passed.
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Nov 7, 2023 04:04
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In some European countries there is a state church that is supported with public funds in various ways.
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Nov 7, 2023 20:14
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sinnesloeschen posted:oh poo poo yeah like rabbis who could fly and cure leprosy with chants and spells and poo poo local tradition is that humans had the ability to fly and time travel using their minds, but those abilities were lost long ago I've been doing some thinking on this regarding myths. how much of these things are mythology and symbolism vs. actual beliefs that people had? We can point to Genesis as a myth (or rather, set of myths). Myths aren't bad, they're simply a story told to illustrate certain important concepts or relationships. But like, people in the past have believed Genesis as literal fact and still do. I guess I'm wondering to what extent are myths and magic meant as symbolism or storytelling vs. actual literal fact/truth?
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Nov 9, 2023 03:31
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oh man I hadn't even considered AI religious/sacred art but of course it's a thing i hate it
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Nov 20, 2023 03:44
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I was visiting my parents this weekend and poked around in some of my grandfather's old stuff. There was some discussion of Masonry on the Discord so I'll repost this here, it's a bunch of pictures from gpa's gigantic Masonic Bible. I remember reading it as a kid because it's got a lot of cool artwork and it's physically massive so it was neat for a young book nerd. I know almost nothing about my gpa's involvement in Masonry and frankly very little about his early life (pre-30s and kids), unfortunately. Not great pics but whatever, it's not a super rare book or anything, you can pretty easily find these. I think it's a 1956 Holman KJV Masonic Bible. quote:This special edition of the BIBLE is the first and only book to present the inter-relation of MASONRY and the HOLY WORD, and was prepared under the auspices of a Masonic Educational Bureau for the purpose of showing the Scriptural Source of Masonic Philosophy. Masonic Educational Bureau feels like it'd be part of some very old-timey conspiracy theory stuff. Weirdly enough, there's a page for the Mason initiate and supervising brothers to sign dedications, but it's blank. Gpa was a quite dutifully religious Episcopalian (went to an Episcopal boarding school) and also extremely active in the Masons. My dad remembers cross-country road trips to visit Lodges for stuff. I wish I'd talked with gpa about it, it's a bit odd to me that he never got his three sons involved or ever spoke about it at all. He wasn't active in Masonry during my lifetime, must've stopped at some point. Anyway, a bunch of crappy pics:  The book is a monster, shown with a playing card for scale. It's a good 12" tall and 4" thick and weighs upwards of 20lbs.  It spends a good 30 pages on illustrations and descriptions in exhaustive detail of a "reconstruction of the Temple of Solomon."  Then there's a bunch of masonic ritual stuff that goes through each of the Degrees   Then the Bible text itself, it's a KJV. There are a bunch of gorgeous full-page illustrations and images of paintings.  Then at the end there's a concordance, dictionary, index, and a bunch of Biblical genealogy family trees. 
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Nov 20, 2023 05:01
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see also: filioque but yeah, I need to do more thinking about Jesus' faith. obviously that is something we should try to emulate in some ways, and like Azathoth said I haven't encountered it too much in mainline Protestantism Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 02:38
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NomChompsky posted:I get the feeling that if you misgendered Jesus, he'd forgive you for it. yeah I would guess several people would be happy to volunteer. do you have any family that are vaguely nearby and Christian? at least for me it'd be nice to have some family attend/participate in my baptism, another way to build community I suppose
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Nov 25, 2023 03:23
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hmm, talk of offering food to idols has me thinking of spirit plates which is not really the same thing but I guess I haven't thought about it much in a Christian context a number of cultures (I'm familiar with the indigenous american context but it's a Thing in many) will make a "spirit plate" of food to offer to spirits as part of a meal. say a blessing prayer over our food, here's the food for the living and here's a plate we set aside for the spirits. it's not idolatry because it's not worshipping spirits, it's simply welcoming them and showing hospitality.
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Nov 30, 2023 20:14
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around there the little people are especially associated with protecting springs (as in, springs where water flows from) and are mostly sort of aloof nature spirits that guard clean water. they're not mischievious really, but you're supposed to show them respect. they sometimes help people lost or stranded due to the weather
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Dec 1, 2023 23:27
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NomChompsky posted:So my church every Thursday night is doing an advent series which is just people gathering to sing through the Holden Evening Prayer and boy that is an incredible series of hymns, and the atmosphere of the church at night really brings the entire atmosphere home. Very much enjoyed that and I am gonna do it every week for the next couple. That's awesome! In a similar vein, you might see if there are any Christmas Vespers (or similar) music performances in your area. Some of the larger Lutheran churches and especially colleges had Christmas Vespers performances where I grew up and they were fantastic. That may be somewhat particular to the Upper Midwest in the US though. edit: Lutherans love to sing. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 01:33
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it's really really difficult to "deprogram" or however you wanna describe nudging people gradually away from biblical literalism and other bad stuff like thread boogeyman prosperity gospel. I think it's particularly hard to do in a deliberate way, and it's not fast, it's something that takes a long time and a lot of gradual exposure to slowly change peoples' minds. they really need some sort of personal life experience that pushes them to realign their thinking. I'm hardly a psychologist but it seems easy and comforting for many people to just go with the simple, un-nuanced answer as opposed to the complex heavily nuanced approach that requires you to spend a lot of time doing critical reading and thinking etc. there's also the fact that a lot of people have authoritarian personalities or mindsets and are going to feel more comfortable with a sort of blunt force literalism. trying to destroy biblical literalism with your powers of debate and historical criticism is not gonna work and is likely to backfire spectacularly. you can't logic someone out of a worldview they didn't arrive at by logic themselves. like Azathoth said, it's not just theology, liturgy, exegesis etc you're fighting against it's much moreso human psychology, sociology, and culture.
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Dec 3, 2023 21:27
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most people are not theology/liturgy nerds like we are and have a pretty shallow or unexamined relationship with actual theology and such. that's normal! it's psychologically comforting to fall back on a simple, hard "truth." complexity and nuance are difficult and require mental energy and, importantly, some sense of stability. a lot of people retreat to biblical literalism (or whatever) as a psychological defense mechanism of sorts. I'm going to do a little Old Man Yelling At Clouds but the mass media environment and social media contribute hugely to this. Everything is soundbites or hot takes edit: I'm not a psychiatrist I'm as usual. There was a really good youtube interview with a psychiatrist I saw the other week where the guy made the argument that, at the extremes, right-wing and reactionary psychologies retreat to simplistic black-and-white worldviews and engage in psychological "splitting" which can tend toward schizoid and paranoid disorders. On the opposite end, liberals and leftists tend to get overwhelmed with the complexity of the real world and that can lead toward depression.Anyway my point was a lot of this is just basic human psychology combined with our current media landscape. edit2: psychological splitting is in my understanding when someone is unable to consider both the good and bad of a thing at once and instead retreats to a binary all-good/all-bad way of thinking, often as a defense mechanism. I've been on a psychology kick recently. Eagerly awaiting someone itt with actual psychology knowledge telling me I'm wrong 
Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 17:19
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You might get some value from Stephen Jay Gould (evolutionary biologist, non-religious Jew)'s essay "Nonoverlapping Magisteria" https://caspar.bgsu.edu/~courses/4510/Classes/48A078B0-8402-4995-9161-A2C418612C75_files/Gould_97.pdf which discusses the interplay between religion and science, specifically in the context of Gould meeting with some Catholic priests in Rome while at a scientific conference. edit: also it sounds like you're trying to "logic" your way into choosing a faith tradition that aligns with your values and has a good sense of community, and that you value the community aspect most of all? There are lots of organizations that are not I would encourage you to just start doing some reading on Christianity and Christian history, visit some Christian churches. I'm not trying to be rude here, but you're pretty ignorant of history of the Reformation for example. Which is fine! Most people are! But you've made some assumptions that are incorrect and in fact are pretty uncharitable toward the Catholics Also I'm not sure what the NRC is. The Roman Catholic Church? I feel like you're getting your information and understandings in a very second-hand, abstracted sense and I would encourage you to just jump in the deep end! Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 20:08
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