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OwlFancier posted:I don't think this is true. I think there's even a lot of explicit racists who would be fine with an internationalist approach if they could be persuaded that it's actually capitalism that's threatening their (& all other) culture. They'd probably stop being so racist, too, if they saw that other cultures existing near them actually isn't a threat to their culture at all.
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Feb 28, 2021 14:23
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think this is true. Do you mean you think most people would actively consider themselves disrespectful to the cultures of others and be proud of that/make no effort to be more respectful, or that many people are ignorant of what constitutes proper respect and how to act respectfully? If the latter I can see your point.
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Feb 28, 2021 14:25
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I mean I just don't think people care about other cultures, they like what they like and what they like is what they are used to and they are likely to see anything different as bad, and the response to that can vary between ignoring it or being hostile to it, and that this is exacerbated when they are in contact with narratives that cause them to view the presence of Others as a threat to them, because this builds on an existing and very simple impulse. They may or may not identify or express this as racism, but whether they do or not, I don't think there is fertile ground for cooperation. They might tolerate others as long as they feel in control of them but I don't think that there is a large latent constituency of people who want to align themselves with people that they think are different to them. If you want one of those you have to build it. The example that comes to mind is LGBT groups, which are comprised of people with quite heterogenous "cultures" within the various subgroups but which are forged together by opposition to cisheteronormativity, a common enemy, because it is quite easy to see how that affects all of us and doesn't affect the majority (or at least, the greater plurality) of people. Without that common and distinct enemy, I don't think the grouping would exist. And I don't think that capitalism works the same because capitalism isn't something we are apart from, it's isn't an outsider, it is in and throughout us, it is intrinsic to a lot of our culture. It is easy to feel it is the enemy if you are outside of it, if it has pushed you out the way the dominant conception of sexuality and gender pushes out LGBT people, if you have no money, if you don't like the things it makes, but I think it is harder if you are a naturalized participant in it. The exclusion is the thing that builds a new, common culture, and that culture forms the basis of a conflict with the one that suppresses it. And eventualy, I hope, it supplants the old one. But I don't think that's different cultures allying so much as it is material conditions making a new culture out of parts of other ones, and that one conquering the old dominant one. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Feb 28, 2021 |
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Feb 28, 2021 14:29
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Is it time to post these (again)?      So here you can see that British and Irish and Portuguese episcopalianism is under threat from degenerate foreign forces calling bishops all kinds of nonsense, and true English values are calling a castle after an old Indian name for a car. Also castles are boats in Russia, not bishops, even though their bishops have a little folding thing on their hats like some boats do.
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Feb 28, 2021 14:32
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OwlFancier posted:I mean I just don't think people care about other cultures, they like what they like and what they like is what they are used to and they are likely to see anything different as bad, and the response to that can vary between ignoring it or being hostile to it, and that this is exacerbated when they are in contact with narratives that cause them to view the presence of Others as a threat to them, because this builds on an existing and very simple impulse. They may or may not identify or express this as racism, but whether they do or not, I don't think there is fertile ground for cooperation. I guess we’ve just had different experiences then. Most people I’ve ever met think other cultures are cool even if that is expressed in ways that can be patronising/exoticising. Also, genuine question: if this is your view on how different cultures tend to react to one another, how on earth do you survive mentally as an internationalist, or even think of your internationalism as anything but wild fantasy? Like I can’t see how internationalism and your thoughts expressed above would gel at all but I am genuinely interested to hear your answer.
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Feb 28, 2021 14:42
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the problem with nationalism is that liking things isn’t cool
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Feb 28, 2021 14:43
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Only weirdos consider themselves racist or disrespectful. The vast majority of people would dispute the charge if made to them. But many of them in the same breath will tell you that all travellers are criminals, you can't trust somalis around white women and that the neighbourhood was very nice before all the blacks moved in. People aren't very good judges of their own characters or beliefs. Since I've started shaving my head (combined with my sense of fashion), other people have become very comfortable telling me their views on other cultures, I have previously tried to engage when this happened. "Of course you can only get one of the those council houses, if your pakistani or somali now" "Those houses haven't been council houses for 20 years, their all owned by buy-to-let landlords" "Well the government says you have to rent to them first" "No, it's the fact those groups have fewer options to rent so will accept worse conditions making it easy money for the landlord" Next time the subject comes up it's like memento. But on the other hand it's noticable that I don't think I've had one of these conversations with anyone under 40? While I don't believe the young will save us or they're as super-woke as talked about, it's worth mentioning. JoylessJester fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Feb 28, 2021 |
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Feb 28, 2021 14:55
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Jakabite posted:Hasn’t this professor actually said a ton of actually anti-Semitic poo poo tho? No but some accusations he's made have sometimes been vague enough around the structures and motives of the societies to allow them to accuse him of that. Nothing he has said or done has been outright bigotry and abandoning him because of loose use of language is a huge mistake. Trusted friends should be having quiet words to say he needs to be a bit more specific when he's talking about these things but the general approach to take is to defend him from losing his position.
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Feb 28, 2021 15:00
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Jakabite posted:I guess we’ve just had different experiences then. Most people I’ve ever met think other cultures are cool even if that is expressed in ways that can be patronising/exoticising. To extend the LGBT example, I think the way that works is that our common exclusion makes us form a new culture based around that exclusion and incorporating elements of ourselves and our experiences with others like us, that culture is hammered together, hardened by political activism and... like existing politically together, whatever you would call posting in this thread where we get exposed to each other's ideas, it's not activism but it's not apolitical either. Stuff like that forms a new culture and that culture begins to dominate key places, key positions, it comes through in schools, it comes through in young people's spaces, and it begines to supplant the old culture. In so doing it also incorporates parts of it, and eventually as people raised in that new culture get older it begins to spread through the rest of society, slowly, facing institutional opposition every step of the way, but so long as the institutions cannot completely control our social activity, it cannot truly be stopped. Eventually, it conquers the old culture and there is a new, I guess you could call it synthesis dominant culture which can better include the inital excluded group. It might not be total though, and the new, free-er environment might allow the growth of new excluded groups. That is broadly how I see the move from LGB acceptance to include greater focus on T acceptance, the better environment is what allows trans people to talk about themselves and for the rest of us to be improved by incorporating their understanding but at the same time there is not enough inclusion for people to really have their needs met, and to be themselves. And so the same thing happens again, exclusion creates culture, culture spreads in the key formative places, from there outwards, supplants the dominant one. I think, also, that this can happen multiple times at the same time. I don't think the initial LGB accceptance wave has even remotely finished moving through society yet but we are already getting successive waves iterating on that idea for the better, and I also think that it sort of... thins out as it travels, and needs to be continually refreshed by new, living, liberatory ideas forming out of that mixture of enough acceptance to let them grow but enough exclusion to make them into a political force. Continual waves of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis rippling through society. To try to express this in more general terms, I think that anticapitalism does not have a constituency with people who are doing well enough in it or people who have been exposed to nothing but the dominant capitalist culture. Which is why I think it skews so hard with age, younger people have been more excluded from it, and they also have spent more time in spaces where that critical view is normalized, their continued exclusion helps to build this into a political force as well as a cultural one, because the exclusion causes more and more rejection of pro-capitalist culture, distrust of the news, celebrities etc, and it will continually look for ways to assert its own dominance in the world, but again will face institutional opposition (and more dangerously, co-option) at every step of the way. As far as this intersects with other forms of culture, I think, ultimately, the way it works is by overruling them. Or at least, that "anticapitalist" becomes your primary identity and form of cultural expression, I think that the internet helps with this by showing us (if we look in the right places) that people all over the world want similar things and it certainly shows us the horrors of the world far better than the traditional media ever would. And to a degree that interaction might cause parts of those other world cultures to be absorbed into the broader anticapitalist one. Though language is still a limiting factor. But I think that ultimately it works by either minimising or erasing other cultures you might identify with. It is, again, a form of conquest, not co-operation. It's zero sum, each human has a finite capacity for culture and the more of it that is filled with anticapitalism the less space there is for other stuff. The chance to win, I suppose, comes when capitalism successfully marginalizes all other cultures but its own, and therefore by extension, creates the dominance of anticapitalism, because that is defined by opposition to capitalism, the larger and more exclusionary capitalism gets, the more its contained antithesis grows as well. I would like to think that there may be some surviving remnants of the old cultures that could form the basis of new, postcapitalist culture, but I don't know. Either way I don't have any real faith in the idea of proactively rallying all the cultures of the world to come together and defeat capitalism before it rips out their hearts, that's just not how I understand the historical process to work. Also to be clear I don't think this is good, it's just how I see things working, I get that it might be a horrific idea but history often is. It sucks but I can't interpret what I see any other way. This view is necessarily internationalist because capital is too, in its own perverse way. And the other part of why I am an internationalist is because I simply do not see at all how any nationalist opposition can or has worked. I am in no small part, internationalist by elimination. How difficult or unlikely it is is kind of irrelevant, because I don't see any national effort in history managing to do anything but recreate all the problems I want to see fixed. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Feb 28, 2021 |
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Feb 28, 2021 15:18
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JoylessJester posted:Only weirdos consider themselves racist or disrespectful. The vast majority of people would dispute the charge if made to them. But many of them in the same breath will tell you that all travellers are criminals, you can't trust somalis around white women and that the neighbourhood was very nice before all the blacks moved in. People aren't very good judges of their own characters or beliefs. Hoo boy. Nope it's a lot worse than you think. Take it from someone redheaded who used to speak with an eastern European accent.
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Feb 28, 2021 15:22
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What we're grappling with is that there exists in most people a sense of pride in a community that they care about being at its best. The right wing take that and frame it in ways that lead to their desired outcomes of retaining power and wealth. School's overcrowded? Great teachers but too many immigrant kids who can't speak English. Hospital full? Love the NHS but health tourism is killing it. Roads knackered? Council wasting money on cycle lanes. Honda moved their plant to Japan? Remember we kicked their arses in the war. That pride is so misplaced it's easy for us to deny the validity of it altogether. But it exists nonetheless, so we'd be better to try to articulate it in ways that lead to our desired outcomes of a fairer society. School's overcrowded? We need to cultivate academic excellence from playschool on up and now is the time to invest in our children's futures. Hospital full? Nurses are some of the hardest working members of society. They need a salary that reflects their value to our society and visas that allow the world's best medical talent join the world's best health service. Roads knackered? To kickstart our economy we need to invest in transport, not sit around stuck in traffic. Honda moved their plant to Japan? Swindon is our new high tech manufacturing hub. If we just point out flaws without explaining a vision for something better, we get accused of "doing down Britain" by the people responsible for Britain being poo poo in the first place.
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Feb 28, 2021 15:24
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I'm going to start comparing things to the Netherlands again, for two reasons this time (other than the usual one of living here and it being easy): 1. NL is culturally very similar to the UK in many ways. It's a racist country full of people who will swear that it's an amazingly non-racist country, a colonial history that an alarmingly large proportion of people are proud of, a sense of national exceptionalism, and a sense of superiority. Key sentiments are "the Dutch are different", and the conceited "gidsland" (guide country or model country) idea. 2. The difference is that NL has sort of done the thing I mentioned in a previous post: leveraged the pride into a feeling that they deserve nice things. However, they've done this with the nationalist superiority sentiment, rather than instead of it, so maybe my theory was over optimistic. By chance during the discussion ITT, I came across this article in DutchNews, by a fairly naive liberal expat (and author of the book "Why the Dutch are Different", which I haven't read so I can't confirm how cringe the title is). It's an interesting dissection of the lackluster Covid response here, but this line jumped out: quote:Other countries’ failures prove we’re right, but their successes are largely ignored. I can almost imagine the guys in my favorite bar in Rotterdam shouting: ‘Yes, Belgium’s infections are lower, but have you seen the state of their roads?!’ Ok, it's a line he made up, but I recognise the sentiment. What's the point of being the best country in the world, if we don't have the best of everything? And these hypothetical Rotterdammers are right, the roads here are very good - but under this worldview, that's not enough, they've got to be better than the Belgians' roads, and the Germans'. So obviously I'm not advocating this approach, even though it would be quite fitting in the UK. I think we need to look at absolutes, rather than relatives - make the trains/NHS/schools good, don't keep looking over your shoulder to see if you're "beating" the "competition". Do it for its own sake, because this is the part of the world we can actually influence. The trains here are good. They may not be the best in the world. The cycling infrastructure here probably is the best in the world, but that shouldn't matter. If it's good, good, and if it's not good, let's make it good. Also worth mentioning that NL is just as neoliberal and privatisation-happy as the UK, but with slightly less disastrous results, possibly because if they privatised things the British way, the population would revolt at being worse than Belgium. Or maybe they're just boiling the frogs slower, who knows?
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Feb 28, 2021 15:34
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JoylessJester posted:Since I've started shaving my head (combined with my sense of fashion), other people have become very comfortable telling me their views on other cultures, I have previously tried to engage when this happened. Maybe stop wearing brown shirts?
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Feb 28, 2021 15:51
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Angrymog posted:Supermarket chat. I haven't been to the supermaket as much recently because I started getting meal boxes about half the time, but I went yesterday and I noticed it looking distinctly emptier. Not shortage levels, just noticeably emptier. Anyone noticed simillar? Not shortages in general, but specific items that just aren't getting restocked for months. And not just the economy lines like Monroe was saying. Mebh posted:Having slept on it, I think that while it'd be nice to have someone that could identify with the public a bit more and help get rid of the unfair reputation that we've gathered. It won't work. Not with the press the way they are and all the levers of power stacked against us. I think the left get this image of complaining and being too serious, because the few times we do get on the news or panel shows or question time, we're stuck opposing some tory oval office saying everything is fine, so we have to be the ones going 'this is serious and people are dying.' Jones particularly is a victim of this, to the point that I was genuinely surprised there wasn't a vaguely homophobic spitting image puppet of him. It would be great if there was a straightforward path to making comedy that is relatable while also highlighting the massive, glaring problems with society that people just want to escape from. Boyle is good, but still has an air of "and you're also a oval office" to his audience that I can see putting some people's backs up. To a certain extent you're also fighting the 'it wasn't a problem until you pointed it out' effect, where someone can go to a Michael Macintyre show and then go to work the next day with some funny head wobble jokes about Waitrose that cheer everyone up. If you go to a Frankie Boyle show however, there's a risk of going into work the next day and suddenly realising "Yeah why do i spend the majority of my waking hours doing pointless poo poo for a complete oval office?" and if it's the first time you've noticed it, or you start pointing it out to other people, it can bring the mood down. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that it's part of human nature to want to feel good and not to feel bad, and so much leftist thought necessarily invvolves pointing at the problems, even when advocating for obvious solutions. Could we be better at it? Probably, but it's always going to be a tougher sell than the lies and easy answers the right try and peddle, and there's always going to be an element of shooting the messenger when people look at who ti blame for feeling bad. If you call someone bigoted, they don't get mad at themselves for saying a bad thing, or at their parents for letting those attitudes become ingrained, or at the government for nurturing s hostile refugee policy. They get mad at you for bringing it up. Ignorance is bliss in other words, and a lot of people resent the person they see as taking the bliss away from them. That doesn't mean we can't try to be relatable, nor especially does it mean we have to start using typically right wing things like nationalism or austerity. But it does mean we're always going to have a tougher time connecting to people. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Feb 28, 2021 |
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Feb 28, 2021 15:54
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https://twitter.com/TheStuffOfMemes/status/1366033113583931396/photo/1
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Feb 28, 2021 16:02
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the sunday sport is the only leftist newspaper in Britain
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Feb 28, 2021 16:12
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OwlFancier posted:To extend the LGBT example, I think the way that works is that our common exclusion makes us form a new culture based around that exclusion and incorporating elements of ourselves and our experiences with others like us, that culture is hammered together, hardened by political activism and... like existing politically together, whatever you would call posting in this thread where we get exposed to each other's ideas, it's not activism but it's not apolitical either. Stuff like that forms a new culture and that culture begins to dominate key places, key positions, it comes through in schools, it comes through in young people's spaces, and it begines to supplant the old culture. In so doing it also incorporates parts of it, and eventually as people raised in that new culture get older it begins to spread through the rest of society, slowly, facing institutional opposition every step of the way, but so long as the institutions cannot completely control our social activity, it cannot truly be stopped. Thanks for the well thought out response. There are bits I really agree with and bits I would disagree on but it’s too nice a day for me to write anything substantial right now! Just to say thanks and I enjoyed reading that - internationalist by elimination makes a lot of sense.
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Feb 28, 2021 16:30
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I am sorry for being a prick to you yesterday, as well.
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Feb 28, 2021 16:32
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considering how he is around women while he's on camera i can 100% believe this
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Feb 28, 2021 16:48
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OwlFancier posted:I am sorry for being a prick to you yesterday, as well. All good!  The Sport is all just totally made up stuff right? I seem to remember it is but my brain always tries to say it’s real cos it so badly wants it to be. Greggs pasty BOILED MY BELLEND can’t be fake 
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Feb 28, 2021 18:17
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honourable posting 
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Feb 28, 2021 18:21
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It probably uses the same defence as the National Enquirer in the US, which is essentially that any normal person would be able to see that it's obviously not true. And then use the grey area of people who don't realise that to advertise horrific scams to.
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Feb 28, 2021 18:23
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Jakabite posted:All good! We could ask the Jeremy Corbyn sex dwarf if he's real or not but sadly he was eaten by otters.
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Feb 28, 2021 18:25
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Bobby Deluxe posted:It probably uses the same defence as the National Enquirer in the US, which is essentially that any normal person would be able to see that it's obviously not true. And then use the grey area of people who don't realise that to advertise horrific scams to. 
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Feb 28, 2021 18:46
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Bobstar posted:By chance during the discussion ITT, I came across this article in DutchNews, by a fairly naive liberal expat (and author of the book "Why the Dutch are Different", which I haven't read so I can't confirm how cringe the title is). I read it when I lived in NL and as far as I remember it's about what you'd expect. A pretty light, somewhat naive look at the most obvious cultural differences and national quirks but without examining anything too closely. I think he'd only lived there a few years when he wrote it. quote:Ok, it's a line he made up, but I recognise the sentiment. What's the point of being the best country in the world, if we don't have the best of everything? And these hypothetical Rotterdammers are right, the roads here are very good - but under this worldview, that's not enough, they've got to be better than the Belgians' roads, and the Germans'.
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Feb 28, 2021 19:03
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big scary monsters posted:I read it when I lived in NL and as far as I remember it's about what you'd expect. A pretty light, somewhat naive look at the most obvious cultural differences and national quirks but without examining anything too closely. I think he'd only lived there a few years when he wrote it. Yeah it's easy to slip into that expat bubble and assume it's all wonderful, especially if you don't/can't take in the local news (as I'm sure you know. Are you in Scandinavia now?) My Dutch teacher from when I did a course said "Nederland is geen paradijs" - clearly he's come across this before. Strangely, he's about the only person I've met who had a sense of humour about his country's foibles, and acknowledged that his language was basically easier fake-German. big scary monsters posted:The Belgian roads really are terrible though, it's not even a joke that you can tell when you've crossed the border just by the potholes. I think it's due to local council funded roads vs. nationally funded roads, much like how some of the UK's largest cities have absolutely dreadful road surfaces while tiny A roads in the middle of the Highlands can be great because they are looked after by the Highways Agency (and also see less traffic). Oh definitely. And concrete surroundings. The motorways are just uglier, which shouldn't be a thing, but they manage it. Probably helps here that the same agency does both roads and keeping the water where it should be.
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Feb 28, 2021 19:15
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namesake posted:We could ask the Jeremy Corbyn sex dwarf if he's real or not but sadly he was eaten by otters. Wait, both the Jeremy Corbyn AND the Gordon Ramsay sex dwarfs were eaten by wildlife?
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Feb 28, 2021 19:17
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If you're in Wales and on twitter and haven't already, can you jump on #sackhelenmaryjones please, diolch.
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Feb 28, 2021 19:21
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There's entire species in the UK that have sex dwarves as their only remaining prey after loss of native fauna and wild spaces.
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Feb 28, 2021 19:22
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big scary monsters posted:some of the UK's largest cities have absolutely dreadful road surfaces while tiny A roads in the middle of the Highlands can be great because they are looked after by the Highways Agency (and also see less traffic). It's not unusual to be hooning through some empty corner of the highlands on perfect blacktop and pass a sign with "Part funded by the European Union Regional Development Fund" on it.
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Feb 28, 2021 19:24
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big scary monsters posted:The Belgian roads really are terrible though, it's not even a joke that you can tell when you've crossed the border just by the potholes. I think it's due to local council funded roads vs. nationally funded roads, much like how some of the UK's largest cities have absolutely dreadful road surfaces while tiny A roads in the middle of the Highlands can be great because they are looked after by the Highways Agency (and also see less traffic). I remember the first time I visited Belgium we were driving to Brussels, and literally the second the motorway crossed from France into Belgium it was like driving on the goddamn moon. Best roads though hands down has to go to the Swiss. Everyone thinks it’s the Germans and theirs are very good overall, but Swiss roads are just crazy. So is their phone service, we were half way up a mountain in the middle of buttfuck nowhere and still had full 4G reception. Of course the UK road situation isn’t helped by every manufacturer deciding their cars must all have big diamond cut alloy wheels with low profile tyres.
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Feb 28, 2021 19:48
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Saith posted:If you're in Wales and on twitter and haven't already, can you jump on #sackhelenmaryjones please, diolch. Crudely drawn cock & balls party it is
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Feb 28, 2021 19:52
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Borrovan posted:Oh ffs I was going to throw Plaid a protest vote in the locals I keep telling people they count that as a vote for the Tories.
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Feb 28, 2021 20:12
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i'm going to register the cock and balls party with a big cock and balls as the logo and win a landslide at the next election 
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Feb 28, 2021 20:20
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Borrovan posted:Oh ffs I was going to throw Plaid a protest vote in the locals I'd say they keep shooting themselves in the foot but it seems like a systemic thing sadly. @punkistani93 is a pretty good follow re: problems with plaid/indy movement. If anyone's in Cardiff West I'd implore you to vote Labour in the locals mind, just to keep McEvoy out.
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Feb 28, 2021 20:21
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Saith posted:If anyone's in Cardiff West I'd implore you to vote Labour in the locals mind, just to keep McEvoy out. Fairwater next year is going to be a very dirty council ward election imo, it's his last chance at holding public office for a long while. Edit: For full disclosure, I'll probably be standing in a neighbouring ward.
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Feb 28, 2021 20:26
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Why were Plaid not able to eat Labours lunch like the SNP did? Is it because Welsh Labour are less lovely than Scottish Labour, or is it some failure on Plaid's part?
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Feb 28, 2021 20:28
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marktheando posted:Why were Plaid not able to eat Labours lunch like the SNP did? Is it because Welsh Labour are less lovely than Scottish Labour, or is it some failure on Plaid's part? Yes. It's partly because of Carwyn's clear red water rhetoric. Being slightly less Blairite than the Blairites while using all the correct lefty buzzwords. Partly because Plaid did a Lib Dem in 200X and bet all their political capital on a doomed referendum they barely campaigned for. Partly because in much of Wales, we're groomed from a young age to hold anything Welsh in contempt (outside of the sports teams of course), like good little Britnats. And partly because Plaid constituencies are growing more and more infested with English UKIP voters every year.
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Feb 28, 2021 20:39
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marktheando posted:Why were Plaid not able to eat Labours lunch like the SNP did? Is it because Welsh Labour are less lovely than Scottish Labour, or is it some failure on Plaid's part? My immediate thoughts on this: The Welsh Assembly doesn't have anywhere near the powers of Scottish Parliament so it's harder for them to appear different from Westminster and talk about the alternatives if they could just have the rest, Wales is economically weaker than Scotland and so is much more dependent on staying linked to England, Wales has been under English rule for far longer than Scotland has been part of the UK so there's not the same historic vision of seperation to appeal to and a lot of English people move into Wales and don't like the idea of leaving the UK.
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Feb 28, 2021 20:40
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crispix posted:i'm going to register the cock and balls party with a big cock and balls as the logo and win a landslide at the next election Do you have a newsletter I could subscribe to?
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Feb 28, 2021 20:43
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