Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
BassMug
Jul 19, 2022
Congrats on game clear! Especially on hard, this game can be brutal. And thanks for great coverage of the game, too!

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

BassMug
Jul 19, 2022
Good going! Tangybug is a terror and a half, and it’s pretty amazing just how obscure the little dude is. Maybe Tanjerin really is the strongest!

BassMug
Jul 19, 2022

Alxprit posted:

Don't worry about making me feel inadequate - obviously as an LPer, especially in screenshot form, you have to show the most optimal and best ways to do that. It's "Let's Play" after all - in a way it's a form of helping those of us with less of a mind for this sort of thing get the advice they may need. I'd be the same way about things if I were LPing. Some might find it boring to only show the correct way to do something and would rather laugh at failures or whatever, but there's room for all sorts of methods and audiences here.

I guess what I meant moreso by "humbling" was I'm a bit incredulous that a reliable strategy even exists for this fight. Like I actually couldn't fathom it. But it only speaks to how intricate the systems are at their core!

If it makes you feel any better, I washed out of hard mode around the bandit lair. This game expects a lot of system mastery!

BassMug
Jul 19, 2022

Quackles posted:

Having seen all this, I'd say— Bug Fables is a pretty cool game!


(I've been thinking of adding a second challenge mode to Master Quest. Maybe one where you always are refilled to max HP/FP/etc after each battle, but...

...well, haven't got the drawback figured out yet. Or the special parameters. But maybe someday.)

The idea of a “go all out constantly” mode is pretty awesome. Maybe just make it full-on rocket tag and make enemies hit harder/decrease player HP or Def so both sides are throwing out massive offense constantly?

BassMug
Jul 19, 2022

Explopyro posted:

Design Interlude: Degenerate Strategies

The biggest downside of an obvious degenerate strategy existing is that it turns engaging with the mechanics as intended and playing the game normally into a sort of challenge run. If a player is constantly thinking about having to intentionally play suboptimally or under self-imposed restrictions, e.g. "X move is clearly the best here, but I'll choose not to because the game's better if I don't", or "this equipment combination is too overpowered, let's not use it", it can really ruin their immersion and enjoyment. This is the biggest reason to avoid them: they can often make a game less fun even if the player chooses not to employ them.

This entire writeup was excellent, and succinctly explains an elelent of game design I knew about but didn’t have all the words to articulate. This particular paragraph makes me think of FE3H’s Warp Abuse strategies, and the sheer optimality of using Lysithea/Constance over whatever mages your house started with.

Your later point about the sort of dichotomy between “let them optimize” and “optimizing too much” kind of makes me think of how MMBN’s balance works: you’re expected to start showing system mastery regarding deckbuilding around the midway point of each game. The game pushes you via tankier and more aggressive enemies to start putting together faster and stronger decks to push back; but the right options can push back so hard that the game just plain snaps (Gater.)

Game design really is an art.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

BassMug
Jul 19, 2022

Explopyro posted:


I haven't played Three Houses so I'm not familiar with how Warp works in that game, but it makes sense, that's definitely a mechanic I can see breaking very easily. (I'm guessing it's no longer a finite resource, in some way? It was pretty broken even in the earlier games, but the limitation of needing to decide where and when to use it helped keep it interesting, at least...)


Yeah, essentially that. Warp refreshes every map, and you get 2 charges in most classes (4 in Gremory.) It still scales off of Magic, and it’s attached to the single most busted mage in the game (prior to DLC,) Lysithea von Ordelia. She has like a 70-something magic growth before class bonuses, so this girl can hurl a unit all the way across the map sometimes, leading to a lot of degenerate/abusive strategies boiling down to “drop a wyvern lord behind the boss.” or “get to the current objective NOW, and screw whatever was supposed to contest you.” Like you said, the change from Warp charges being a campaign level resource to a map level one makes it utterly insane, to the point that the next game, Engage, cheekily acknowleged this by designing a FE3H themed challenge map around the enemy army warp spamming you for a change.

This is made worse by Lysithea being all around busted. Her spell list is huge and features some of the best offensive magic in the game, she has a huge speed growth, and is compatible with Thyrsus, a relic staff that grants something like +3 or 4 range to spells. She’s basically an RNG-proof walking nuke. It wouldn’t so had if other mages were even close to being in her league, but the only mage in direct competition with her is Constance from the DLC, who can spam bottomless siege magic if she gets lucky. Both are squishfests, but there isn’t a 3H mage who can take a punch anyway, so only comparative speed/Mag/spell lists matter.

The game wants you to focus on your house’s units, but 90% of the time it’s easier and stronger to just recruit those two and ignore your generally less powerful mages. Degenerate strats! Or degenerate army building, anyway.

And I completely get bouncing off of MMBN, it is a beautiful but often frustrating game.

EDIT: To bring it back to Bug Fables, it was interesting as hell to see the kind of big brained strats/loadouts MP builds let you use! I don’t have the head for it, so I ran a pure TP build on my playthrough. It led to entirely different strategies that didn’t really scale well into postgame… but it’s so cool that the game allows it. I wound up with essentially nuker Leif, white mage Vi, and high damage Kabbu.

BassMug fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Apr 23, 2023

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply