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acting like there is any predictive power in a public persona in either direction literally always boils down to how much the person engaging that rhetoric does or doesnt like a personality or product that kind of post-facto posting youre calling out is tedious and diminishing and so is the inverse where people preemptively and performatively go 'luckily [creator/celebrity/public figure i like] could never be/hasn't been exposed as/gee i sure hope they never get shown to be [whatever kind of horrible sex pest] yet' we've gone through this nonsense multiple times in the metoo thread in games before finally seemingly getting the message out to the crowd to not and it'd be nice to not see it here the reality is whatever known name with whatever kind of forward-pacing personality who's been involved in whatever thing historically or currently is completely capable of having been or having done whatever awful poo poo regardless of whatever public standing they've got which should have been proven in people's minds a million times over by now. absolutely anyone can be an abuser. sorry to bust in from lurking with a fingerwagging post at theoretical thread mishaps save one recent example that was already jumped on but this poo poo's a hairtrigger to me by now lol
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Aug 10, 2021 07:19
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Famethrowa posted:I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this kind of post hoc "guess I was right! Sorry if you felt me making a snide comment about a band made you interpret my post as that way. I absolutely know that predators/rapists are everywhere. I quickly learned that back when I was a teenager from how pervasive it is in the hardcore/punk scenes, even if that band sang against rape culture. There's a lot of bands that I really liked that I stopped liking when member(s) being a predator/sexual assaulter/rapist came out. As an FYI, I only used this as an example simply because that's what I was most familiar with, not because I think it's any worse than other subcultures. E: I guess I just felt like my comment wasn't much more insensitive than the comment I was replying to, sorry if I was wrong in that assessment. Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Aug 10, 2021 |
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Aug 10, 2021 15:11
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" really bugs me. part of "me too" is that most predators hide in plain sight, and most are successful predators by being really charming and sliding through life. doing this little dance when someone who was shady and weird gets caught only seems to obfuscate the real predators sliding on through.
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Kalit posted:Sorry if you felt me making a snide comment about a band made you interpret my post as that way. I absolutely know that predators/rapists are everywhere. like I said, not trying to drag you or anything stupid, just that snide comments read a little insensitive sometimes yknow? I am totally with you wrt local music scenes. there is a real problem that I've seen and heard from many men and women who were involved. speaks to the inherent risks of insularity + having vulnerable teenagers experiencing the fandom "power hierarchy" for the first time. In that sense, I am similarly (unfortunately) less then shocked that a musician with a cult teenage following was exploitative. e. to your e, I also feel the same way about the preceding comment, so I really mean it when I say I don't intend to pick on you specifically
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Aug 10, 2021 15:45
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Violen posted:the reality is whatever known name with whatever kind of forward-pacing personality who's been involved in whatever thing historically or currently is completely capable of having been or having done whatever awful poo poo regardless of whatever public standing they've got which should have been proven in people's minds a million times over by now. absolutely anyone can be an abuser. People still love and support Oprah despite the fact that she has platformed and supported multiple, incredibly awful people. Evil people. Including serial sexual predators with hundreds of victims. This is a person who is a victim of sexual violence herself. Some of them, at least (perhaps all, considering her resources), she could have discovered by doing background research, yet she didn't even with the massive amount of resources at her disposal. Most of these people were found out (by her and everyone else) after stuff got so bad that it became impossible to hide or ignore. It's complicated.
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Aug 10, 2021 15:51
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Cuomo resigned because of the sexual harassment and being a generally awful human being. It's good, but is a bummer that it will probably save him from being raked over the coals for his other corrupt activities. quote:In my mind, I have never crossed the line with anyone, but I didn't realize the extent to which the line has been redrawn. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Aug 10, 2021 |
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Aug 10, 2021 17:35
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Yeah, I had to walk away toward the end when he brought up his daughters, who are the same ages as his targets for abuse were when he harassed them. Shame about all those dead seniors.
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Aug 10, 2021 17:45
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Willa Rogers posted:Yeah, I had to walk away toward the end when he brought up his daughters, who are the same ages as his targets for abuse were when he harassed them. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Aug 11, 2021 |
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Aug 10, 2021 17:49
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"It's not my fault! I was vote the handsomest boy in Albany, NY. And we all know twitter will stop at nothing to ruin handsome, successful men!" - Andrew Cuomo
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Aug 10, 2021 18:16
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Timeless Appeal posted:Cuomo resigned because of the sexual harassment and being a generally awful human being. "Did I do anything wrong? No, it's the women who have changed!" I wonder what the final straw was to prompt a resignation. Slimy pieces of poo poo like him normally hang on by their fingernails until the bitter end to avoid admitting wrongdoing. Maybe when Biden signalled they were cutting him loose?
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Aug 10, 2021 19:50
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some plague rats posted:"Did I do anything wrong? No, it's the women who have changed!" I am 100% sure the answer is that he/his aides spoke to members of the state legislature and concluded that his impeachment was inevitable. I don't think he would've resigned for any other reason. People like Schumer/Gillibrand/Pelosi/Biden putting on the heat probably helped move some holdouts on the issue.
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Aug 10, 2021 19:58
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Are there any legal advantages to resigning instead of getting impeached? I saw someone said if he resigned he could run again, but I really doubt that would go over well.
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Aug 10, 2021 20:13
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bobjr posted:Are there any legal advantages to resigning instead of getting impeached? I saw someone said if he resigned he could run again, but I really doubt that would go over well. e: I wonder if the legislature could strip him of his pension? I imagine they could. Do it!
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Aug 10, 2021 20:16
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It’s probably humiliating to be impeached. Also there’s less of a chance people will start to forget what you did so that you can get a show on cnn like Spitzer.
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Aug 10, 2021 20:18
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Yeah I think he resigned only because impeachment was 100% guaranteed, and this way he can say "well I was never impeached" gently caress him. One down.
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Aug 10, 2021 20:20
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bobjr posted:Are there any legal advantages to resigning instead of getting impeached? I saw someone said if he resigned he could run again, but I really doubt that would go over well.
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Aug 10, 2021 20:23
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bobjr posted:Are there any legal advantages to resigning instead of getting impeached? I saw someone said if he resigned he could run again, but I really doubt that would go over well. There's an unspoken rule in... most leadership positions but especially politics, where resignation leads to less severe or no further consequences. In theory, the utility here is to encourage people to resign rather than cause a bunch of damage to a government or organization by fighting till the end, but it also exists just because it lets wealthy and influential people avoid consequences.
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Aug 10, 2021 20:24
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Cuomo is already in legal trouble, so it's sort out of the legislature's hands as to whether he comes out of this otherwise unscathed. All he's really done is limit the circular firing squad stuff with the state party.
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Aug 10, 2021 20:42
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fool of sound posted:There's an unspoken rule in... most leadership positions but especially politics, where resignation leads to less severe or no further consequences. In theory, the utility here is to encourage people to resign rather than cause a bunch of damage to a government or organization by fighting till the end, but it also exists just because it lets wealthy and influential people avoid consequences. A standard tactic in the UK at least is to quietly resign into a golden parachute to diffuse anger and then the resigned gets replaced by someone who's more or less the same. In this way blatant corruption can pass without damaging the party at large Cuomo probably won't stay hiding for long though, his ego won't really allow it.
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Aug 10, 2021 20:50
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Cuomo is already in legal trouble, so it's sort out of the legislature's hands as to whether he comes out of this otherwise unscathed. All he's really done is limit the circular firing squad stuff with the state party. He's in no legal trouble, lol. He has enough money for lawyers to go up against Boies. The state atty. gen. & the federal DoJ have given him a pass on his granny death camps, and James said she wasn't referring him for criminal indictment and saw it as a civil issue. I look forward to his lucrative gigs down the road, and by "look forward to" I mean "hope he's sued into oblivion." I also don't understand why Chris Cuomo hasn't lost his job yet with America's Most Trusted News.
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Aug 10, 2021 20:51
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Willa Rogers posted:He's in no legal trouble, lol. Definitively untrue by any standard. In fact, he's placed himself in additional jeopardy based on laws passed under his watch.
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Aug 10, 2021 20:57
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Willa Rogers posted:He's in no legal trouble, lol. He has enough money for lawyers to go up against Boies.
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Aug 10, 2021 20:59
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Mellow Seas posted:I am 100% sure the answer is that he/his aides spoke to members of the state legislature and concluded that his impeachment was inevitable. I don't think he would've resigned for any other reason. People like Schumer/Gillibrand/Pelosi/Biden putting on the heat probably helped move some holdouts on the issue. Yeah this makes sense, figures the people in his office would be in favour of him going quietly so they can shift straight over to working for someone else with the same awful policies who will keep their hands to themselves. In public, anyway.
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Aug 10, 2021 21:06
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Timeless Appeal posted:Yes, but there's already a criminal complaint and local jurisdictions are allowed to charge him and ask for resources from the State AG. Yah, I forgot about the one criminal complaint.
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Aug 10, 2021 21:11
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From the other thread: People who assume Obama didn’t know about Weinstein must have a head injury. He just knew Weinstein wouldn’t dare. Weinstein was having public jokes made about him being a rapist by this point, not to mention the three letter agencies would absolutely have let him know. It’s as dumb as thinking Epstein wasn’t some kind of op. Motherfucker was pimping for Clinton, Ehud Barak and Prince Andrew, you’re dumber than dogshit to think he wasn’t up to his ears in spook poo poo (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 10, 2021 21:55
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selec posted:From the other thread: I mean... yeah. absolutely.
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Aug 11, 2021 00:17
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It is seriously naive to think that Weinstein would have raped the president’s daughter. People like that know how to protect themselves. The claims about Epstein being a spy etc strike me as fantastical however, and I think they do a disservice to his victims by directing attention away from how a creep like that actually gets away with it. It’s a bit like the satanic panic, where the wild claims become the main story and people stop caring about “mere” mundane abuse as it actually happens. He was able to get away with it because America hates victims and sells justice. The thing that chills me cold about Epstein is that he told his victims he’d ruin their reputations by calling them whores and showing how they’d cut class and then everyone would blame them, and he was right.
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Aug 11, 2021 01:12
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I thought the idea was more that the security services probably knew and were involved because they are usually involved in all the worst poo poo, not because they necessarily start it but because that at the very least is the nature of a clandestine organization with a gigantic amount of money to throw around and zero accountability.
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Aug 11, 2021 01:17
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Timeless Appeal posted:A lot of public statements from abusers are of course lovely theater for them to avoid consequences, but I honestly don't know if there has been a worth public reaction to harassment or assault allegations outside of maybe Spacey. I posit that "I choose now to live as a gay man." in response to child molestation accusations is in fact not a good response bobjr posted:Are there any legal advantages to resigning instead of getting impeached? I saw someone said if he resigned he could run again, but I really doubt that would go over well. Impeachment and conviction could/would bar him from any future public office in NYS. (But not from the legislature, or national office, or say US House or Senate.)
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Aug 11, 2021 01:23
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Fuschia tude posted:I posit that "I choose now to live as a gay man." in response to child molestation accusations is in fact not a good response I believe that "worth" in Timeless Appeals statement might have meant to say "worse"
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Aug 11, 2021 01:32
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:It’s probably humiliating to be impeached. Also there’s less of a chance people will start to forget what you did so that you can get a show on cnn like Spitzer. That, yes. He now has the last word, a parting shot at his accusers, instead of having all the survivors of his assaults giving graphic testimony about what he did to them in a televised proceeding. I’m sure the NY legislature is eager to drop all the other things he was involved with and will now bury the look into his book money, his high-casualty nursing home policy and the cover up of said policy.
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Aug 11, 2021 01:44
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OwlFancier posted:I thought the idea was more that the security services probably knew and were involved because they are usually involved in all the worst poo poo, not because they necessarily start it but because that at the very least is the nature of a clandestine organization with a gigantic amount of money to throw around and zero accountability. Yeah, it's not worth diving into it too much, especially not in this thread, but sometimes people assume that all conspiracies are automatically  when if you think about them they're really mundane and basic. Other than some people saying that Epstein had to have help to get started, most of the spy talk is just that he knew had he basic coverage as long as he occasionally handed dirt over to the alphabet agencies. That's less and more everyday mob/criminal bullshit. It's either that or the theory that he was smart enough to hang out around influential people under the correct guess that the association would make them put a finger on the scale if he ever got charged even if they weren't personally guilty.
Parakeet vs. Phone fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Aug 11, 2021 |
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Aug 11, 2021 01:56
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:Yeah, it's not worth diving into it too much, especially not in this thread, but sometimes people assume that all conspiracies are automatically Unless you have some evidence for these claims, the objection to them is that this kind of mythologizing is disrespectful to his victims and distracts from what is known about how he operated. It’s as if you’re saying the truth is less interesting, meaningful, and real than a set of speculations that you’d prefer to focus on. If your interest is in justice and reducing harm to women, this is not the way to go about it. Epstein wasn’t some fascinating mystery: he was a crude rapist.
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Aug 11, 2021 02:08
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Unless you have some evidence for these claims, the objection to them is that this kind of mythologizing is disrespectful to his victims and distracts from what is known about how he operated. It’s as if you’re saying the truth is less interesting, meaningful, and real than a set of speculations that you’d prefer to focus on. If your interest is in justice and reducing harm to women, this is not the way to go about it. Epstein wasn’t some fascinating mystery: he was a crude rapist. I am absolutely certain the two most insane intel agencies on earth also had no interest in two of their former heads of state having the same pimp. Why would that interest them? Jesus H dude listen to yourself. Just ground floor, it’s an enormous blackmail risk. It was public knowledge Epstein was an international trafficker and Clinton and Barak palling around with him was no biggie? Seems incredibly weird to assert they’d have no interest in him, and in no way detracts from or seeds doubt in his victims stories. What a weird angle to take.
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Aug 11, 2021 02:12
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e: ^^ yeahAntifa Turkeesian posted:Unless you have some evidence for these claims, the objection to them is that this kind of mythologizing is disrespectful to his victims and distracts from what is known about how he operated. It’s as if you’re saying the truth is less interesting, meaningful, and real than a set of speculations that you’d prefer to focus on. If your interest is in justice and reducing harm to women, this is not the way to go about it. Epstein wasn’t some fascinating mystery: he was a crude rapist. There's a whole thread dedicated to the extremely weird poo poo surrounding Epstein, there is a huge amount of deeply weird stuff that went on and trying to frame him as just some guy who liked to do rape is extremely disingenuous. It feeds into the idea that sexual violence is the result of some guy deciding to do it because he's bad, instead of facing the fact that rape culture permeates our society so thoroughly that a cottage industry dedicated to funneling minors to be assaulted by the rich and powerful was set up and chose this guy to essentially run it and keep everyone's secrets
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Aug 11, 2021 02:14
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Unless you have some evidence for these claims, the objection to them is that this kind of mythologizing is disrespectful to his victims and distracts from what is known about how he operated. It’s as if you’re saying the truth is less interesting, meaningful, and real than a set of speculations that you’d prefer to focus on. If your interest is in justice and reducing harm to women, this is not the way to go about it. Epstein wasn’t some fascinating mystery: he was a crude rapist. Not to dogpile, but yeah, there's lot of weird stuff that's not really right for this thread. Off the top of my head, some reporter diving into his money made a good case that his money situation only really made sense if he was running a massive extortion ring. Any evidence from that suspiciously withered on the vine. And I'd personally say that looking at how powerful people get away with this stuff for so long seems worth digging into  . He was a loud and proud trafficker with little or no legal or social consequences for a shockingly long time. And also barring some future development his entire ring got brought down and once again a couple of sacrificial figureheads were burned while everyone else just kind of slinked away. It's shockingly emblematic of the social/culture levels problems.
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Aug 11, 2021 02:27
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Also, someone might be a target of surveillance or is an intelligence asset but that definitely does not make them a spy or agent. Assets might think of themselves that way but it doesn't make it so.
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Aug 11, 2021 02:37
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selec posted:I am absolutely certain the two most insane intel agencies on earth also had no interest in two of their former heads of state having the same pimp. Why would that interest them? I’m not saying it’s impossible that there is more to the story than is known, but when you ignore what is known about how he found his victims in favor of speculation about how spy agencies must have been involved because there’s no other way he could have gotten away with it, you’re ignoring how abusers get away with it every day. The story isn’t “really” about Clinton and Trump and Bill Gates: they are implicated in a story that is really about how a man got away with abusing women. To say otherwise is to remove the victims from their own stories, which I don’t like because it gives cover to abusers with less sensational stories. Again, I’m not saying fantastical claims about what else might have happened are wrong, but focus on them as the real truth of what happened is unhelpful in the project of respecting victims and preventing abuse. What’s interesting about epstein is how little he had to do to make people not care about his victims and how easily he could silence them, and all because of mundane features of everyday life in the United States.
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Aug 11, 2021 02:57
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I’m not saying it’s impossible that there is more to the story than is known, but when you ignore what is known about how he found his victims in favor of speculation about how spy agencies must have been involved because there’s no other way he could have gotten away with it, you’re ignoring how abusers get away with it every day. The story isn’t “really” about Clinton and Trump and Bill Gates: they are implicated in a story that is really about how a man got away with abusing women. To say otherwise is to remove the victims from their own stories, which I don’t like because it gives cover to abusers with less sensational stories. That’s not at all what I’m saying. I don’t doubt the public story from records we have access to. What I am saying is that he was obviously known and in some way given a pass (at minimum) by these agencies, and much more likely was in some way involved. That doesn’t mean he didn’t do any of the things he’s accused of in the way the victims describe, just that there’s a large part of the story we don’t know BECAUSE it includes names like Bill Clinton. It’s sickening what he did, and if you can’t see Clinton palling around with him as part of the story, when he was definitely loving girls too, I don’t know what to tell you. The rest of your post feels like hand waving. It’s extremely important to talk about these things because if I can’t say, in a room of loyal democrats, that Bill Clinton is a rapist and not get booed, then the work of finding justice for those women isn’t done.
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Aug 11, 2021 03:04
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selec posted:It’s extremely important to talk about these things because if I can’t say, in a room of loyal democrats, that Bill Clinton is a rapist and not get booed, then the work of finding justice for those women isn’t done. This really is the important part to me, and that's why the rush to dust hands and proclaim "well, he was bad, and now he's dead. Out of respect for his victims let us all quickly move on." is so weird
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Aug 11, 2021 03:39
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I think the question of if Clinton or Trump took part in anything is kind of separate from the original post. Trump publicly alluded to knowing that Epstein was having sex with underage people and there was one accusation of him having sex with someone when she was thirteen that didn't really go anywhere, but we know little about it and obviously it not following through in court means little in terms of if it happened or not. One of Epstein's accusers has confirmed Clinton receiving a massage from herself. She describes Clinton as being pretty decent, but I think it's relative in terms of her experience. Another accuser puts Clinton on the island with two girls. We don't need to guess at things, survivors have already told us what they believe about these men. But I do think that's separate from making nebulous comments about Epstein being a spy and calling people idiots for not believing it. Like of course maybe it is true, and it's not like I would be surprised because the guy did have connections with two US Presidents, but we don't know. What I will say is that your take ignores that the FBI went after Epstein for years, intervening when local authorities were clearly not taking it seriously and then going even harder after that. The FBI collected a bunch of info on the guy and again and again, with Epstein getting lenient and sweetheart deals when the information was taken to the courts. The reason Epstein got away with stuff was because he was a wealthy white man, and our society is literally just coming around to giving a poo poo about people like his victims. EDIT: Which is to say, I think Antifa Turkeesian's point is that when we go too far down the rabbit holes of what ifs--which I don't count Clinton and Trump a part of--we distance ourselves from the very obvious and known crimes, corruption, and complicity that we can hopefully learn from. But yeah to the original point, it's definitely hard to imagine Obama hadn't heard the rumors about Weinstein. As mentioned, Seth McFarlane literally went on TV and basically insinuated a bunch of actresses traded sexual favors as a fun joke. Children's movies used to have casting couch jokes. Weinstein like many men were able to commit their crimes because of complicity. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Aug 11, 2021 |
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Aug 11, 2021 04:34
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