#metoo and the impact of rape culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > #metoo and the impact of rape culture

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Grouchio posted:

I believe that Reade was sexually harassed in the distant past but not sexually assaulted like with Ford. There would've been more credence to her larger claim had she not decided RT to be her main outlet, and had she not begun actively supporting Putin before 2020.
That is my stance.

Yeah this is really not true. I am sure this Vox article will not get much love as its main thesis is that the author sympathizes with Read, but does find credibility issues, specifically with a coworker Reade pointed to initially using language that specifically names Biden never tried to even kiss her. It does give some background that legit outlets like Times and Vox had multiple reporters working with her for some time

Also, a lot of sexual assault stuff has come out of twitter, so come on... we believe a lot of cases that are the internet equivalent of standing in the middle of street and yelling. As we should.

Also, friendly reminder that if you really think that Reade lied about the sexual assault, like THE best case scenario is that Biden's office was a lovely place to work for women. The story about the sexual assault may not be consistent, but there is clear support that something happened. And there's a huge amount of women who support Biden's touching of women that is condescending at absolute best. And that's still lovely.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2021 17:34

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 18:39

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Grouchio posted:

Whatever the case, I feel that Biden is atoning for his past actions with his policies, and that at the very least he has stopped his ~~misdemeanors~~ crimes.

I think that there is something to be said when we discuss the ethics of voting for Biden--which with only some exception this is not what this thread is about--that rape and sexual violence are not mere issues of character. Yes, Biden has supported policies in the past that are a net good for victims and survivors.

But your logic is incredibly shaky. Here is an awful story of a man in power operating for something that has good intentions, but used that position for awful things:

I am spoiling the relevant quote because it does mention rape and homelessness

quote:

The move was a swift response to a New York Times investigation into the chief executive, Victor Rivera, who has gained prominence in recent years as his organization grew into one of the largest shelter providers in New York. Ten women � including employees and women who lived in shelters run by Mr. Rivera�s organization, the Bronx Parent Housing Network � had accused him of sexual assault or harassment, The Times found. In two instances, women said Mr. Rivera had coerced them into performing oral sex.

Like if we want to get out a piece of paper and tally up the people who benefited from housing to the people Rivera took advantage of because of their housing situation, maybe we'll have more people who benefited? Does that matter? Of course not.

The broader issue is that you are steering this conversation to be about Joe Biden who at the very best case scenario made some women feel like poo poo. Our focus should not be on the sanctity of Joe Biden's soul, but what it means for women who he hurt to live in a nation that he now leads.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Feb 8, 2021

# ¿ Feb 8, 2021 20:17

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Herstory Begins Now posted:

idk what republicans you're referring to, Christine Blasey Ford had to move out of her house from the stream of death threats and other harassment she was getting.

While I do agree it's unfair to claim that people are weaponizing Reade, I do think there is a segment of the discourse where the main focus is on political tribalism and Reade is simply a bit player in that narrative. There is clear Democratic, Liberal, Progressive, and even Leftist hypocrisy when it comes to Reade, but I think:

1) When we get to the point where we're trying to celebrate Republican treatment of Ford which is simply undermining what Ford went through. Republican politicians acting with decorum while they know that their followers are harassing her isn't good treatment, it's gaslighting.

2) It really is not as straight forward as "We don't go after people on our side." I think the big example of this is Bloomberg in the primaries. The candidates went hard after Bloomberg for the BEST case scenario of the Biden story. And to be clear they should have, gently caress Bloomberg. The issue was that Biden ALWAYS had a huge boost going in. You can throw a donor or a congressman to the side or unlikable New York Mayor, but the candidate with the most juice who is tied to the biggest political force on the Democratic side while also going against Donald Trump.

That's not to excuse or justify any of it. I agree with the sentiment that either someone needed to take Biden aside and tell him no OR something like the Warren smackdown needed to happen early on. Instead we had Castro making agist jokes.

I think it's a moment that more illustrates underlying calculation of risk taking that always goes on. It's not a happy feel good narrative and it doesn't paint the people involved any better as in the tribal narrative. I do feel like the issue of calculation is an easier one to solve than the issue of tribalism.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Feb 9, 2021

# ¿ Feb 9, 2021 14:27

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Insanite posted:

It's a great test case for whether the wider Democratic party will lift a finger about this kind of stuff ever again.

I do think when we get into what I honestly consider as toxic #MeToo hyperbole, we tend to conflate two coexisting issues.

One is positive cultural shifts and institutional reforms. The other is powerful men not receiving consequences for their actions. And while we can definitely critique the hypocrisy of those who embrace the former without meaningfully pushing against the latter, the latter does not exclude the former.

In short, no, it's not a great test that the wider Democratic Party will never lift a finger about this kind of stuff ever again because I'd argue that there are already broader social reforms that curb future men like Cuomo or at least that behavior in men like Cuomo. Not because of the Democratic Party, but just because of society in general.

I think regardless of what happens, we already see that prominent men who have already risen to to power in our terribly patriarchal society are still going to be at least somewhat insulated from consequences by that power. The fact that Cuomo is being allowed to make such a clown of himself right now is evidence of that. Even if Schumer later comes out against it, I think the pause we're seeing is evidence enough of that.

# ¿ Mar 12, 2021 22:39

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

silicone thrills posted:

Al Franken was an anomaly since he actually just was decent enough to resign. Anyone who is a bigger poo poo head like Biden and Cuomo and Kavanaugh certainly wont.

I think that's giving too much credit to Al Franken:

A) The flagship case against Franken was a photograph of him smiling while molesting a sleeping woman. There was really no way to spin that.

B) Chuck Schumer was working with McConnell in the investigation.

C) I think people who announce the death of MeToo often just don't understand that reforms and movements are always going to naturally go through a honeymoon period. But yeah, the Franken stuff did happen at the sort of high of MeToo.

D) Franken isn't really unique. There were 10 House Representatives who in a similar timespan either actively resigned because of allegations or quietly retired from congress.

E) I think that does beg some meditation on how the systems to deal with executive politicians differ from legislative although US Congress is obviously not some exemplar.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2021 01:18

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

silicone thrills posted:

Eric Massa ( ~ 2010 ish ) sexually harassed a staff member but had said he was going to not seek reelection anyway before this came out due to a cancer scare.
Weiner literally went to jail because sending pics of your dick to minors really does get you sent to jail so he didn't really like quietly resign or retire.
David Wu (resigned 2011) admitted he had a "consensual" relationship with someone who was 18 and the kid of some prominent democratic fundraiser so he peaced out pretty quick.
John Conyers (resigned 2017) was accused of sexual harassment but was old as hell anyway and died 2 years later at 90 years old
And Katie Hill's case

Barton, Farenthold, Franks, Kihuen, Meehan, and Murphy.

You're simplifying the timeframe of the Weiner scandal. He resigned because of the original dick pic before we knew worse poo poo. Remember that the other scandals came when Weiner tried to make a comeback.

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

Franken was in tour in Iraq motivating the troops and this was supposed to have been joke. Granted, it's still harassment, poor taste, etc. but remember this the perfect combination of young men, a former comedian and in the early 2000s. And to top it off, Tweeden had done similar raunchy skits. She even accepted Franken's apology.

I don't like the trend of victims coming to terms and finding peace being somehow counter to the victimizer facing consequences. Which is maybe what you're implying with these wishy washy statements? Also, she was clear that the photo was part of a larger trend of Franken being a creep and leveling his power and COMEDY to justify his bullshit.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Mar 19, 2021

# ¿ Mar 19, 2021 13:09

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

Franken lost his entire career, he did face consequences? I don't get what you are trying to say here.

What I am reading from your posts is that Al Franken did something that was bad but not necessarily worth kicking him out of office. And the fact that his victim accepted his apology should have been weighed in how he faced consequences. I don't think that's true.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2021 14:39

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

Why not?

Because forgiveness is a personal thing and the idea that such a personal thing should shape the consequences someone receives is grotesque because it presents an added pressure to victims if their choice to forgive or not is what determines another person's future.

Cuomo and Trump's victims are allowed to forgive them. Some of Biden's have. Victims of child abuse often forgive their parents. Should that matter?

# ¿ Mar 19, 2021 14:55

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

Courts have been asking the feelings of victims for decades and it does have an impact.

That often requires a level of agency and choice on the victim's part, knowingly swaying the outcome for their abuser.That is different from just picking a public and somewhat off the cuff statement from Franken's victim to justify him not stepping down. And to be clear her full statement was:

quote:

The apology, sure I accept it, yes. People make mistakes and of course he knew he made a mistake, So yes I do accept that apology. There's no reason why I shouldn't accept his apology. People make mistakes. I�m not calling for him to step down. That�s not my place to say that.

Tweden was clear in her actual statement that her personal forgiving of Franken is a separate issue than the question if he should step down or not.

quote:

Yes, it should matter? What are you trying to say?

In the context of if Cuomo should be impeached for example, does it matter?

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Mar 19, 2021

# ¿ Mar 19, 2021 16:04

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

silicone thrills posted:

The ones you named are Republicans? Sorry I was only naming democrats. I hold dems to a higher standard just because I feel like the party at least pretends to care about women. Republicans have never pretended that.

Sorry, miscommunication there. I think that actually supports my point more though that Franken's actions were't really uniquely noble--for lack of a better word--though, no?

# ¿ Mar 19, 2021 18:59

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

silicone thrills posted:

I didn't say he was noble. Just apparently more decent than dick heads like Cuomo and Biden. And if a dem doesn't resign on their own there aren't any consequences, barring weiner.

I understand that, and like I said, lack of a better word. I just don't think he's necessarily unique in his actions.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2021 20:20

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Pretty much everything they ever said about BernieBros was always projection.

I feel like this is a vague enough statement that it's worth noting that the Sanders campaign did not only have an issue with sexual harassment and violence, but dealt with it in a lovely way. This is by Bernie's own admission and he apologized for it. Ijeoma Oluo has a good chapter in Mediocre about real harassment that was felt from women political commentators from mostly male Bernie supporters. I've seen in real life Leftist males use their perceived moral righteousness as a license to act horrible to others.

That's obviously not to say that lovely behavior from some Leftists should be used to disqualify Leftism or a political candidate who shows no signs of abuse, assault, and any examples of sexism are at worst implicit bias that is not rare of a man.

But in a thread this is implicitly about partisanship blinding people to the actions of men in power, I feel like your post can hand wave actual things that have happened.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Apr 11, 2021

# ¿ Apr 11, 2021 22:29

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

Kissing was a part of the skit. I don't know if anyone has ever kissed you before sometimes people kiss with tongue and grab their partners head. Obviously, Franken took this way too far and but it doesn't appear he was intentionally trying to violate her boundaries but made a really stupid mistake one that he should have absolutely have known better especially for such an experienced actor. They literally teach "Sex Consent Courses" in acting school for this very reason so they everyone is aware of other people's boundaries. I don't believe accidentally crossing those boundaries rises to a criminal sex act but it still isn't acceptable conduct.

At this point I feel there's little value continuing this discussion and I've explained my view more than once. If you disagree with it by all means then do so.

Dude, your point of view is like REALLY BAD. I don't even agree with everyone on every detail who is arguing with you. But of course a middle aged man knows to not shove his tongue into the mouth of a lady for a kiss for a stupid comedy sketch. Everyone knows that. They weren't performing Portrait of a Lady on Fire or Sleep No More. Sex Consent Courses are great, but because actors actually appear nude, do indeed make-out, and touch each other intimately in performance. If you watch when characters kiss on like SNL, most of the time it's a stilted fake kiss because as much as she enjoys her craft, Kate McKinnon doesn't need to makeout with the host for a dumb sketch.

You're infantilizing a grown man and that is part of the problem of how we deal with these issues in general.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2021 22:48

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

some plague rats posted:

Do you have any links or anything about this? Because I am absolutely not going to read that book

Here's a really good first person narrative from the main person who spoke out.

The reference to sexual violence was in a letter sent to the 2020 Campaign and Sanders. There was no specific allegation, but the letter implicitly states its existence.

Mediocre's good though, but not going to dig to check her sources on that atm. The first article talks about how some Bernie supporters defamed her and told her she was making poo poo up.

EDIT: To be clear, the 2016 campaign by all accounts was bad at dealing with it. Bernie and the 2020 campaign were much better.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Apr 11, 2021

# ¿ Apr 11, 2021 22:57

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

some plague rats posted:

Gotcha. The original point was that the "bernie bros" narrative was horseshit

I think calling it all projection can be read as that there were not actually cases of misogyny, harassment, and most likely assault based on the language from the letter within the Bernie Campaign and amongst his supporters. That is clearly not true, but as Oluo alludes, it speaks to greater culture issues and specifically with men.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2021 23:30

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

some plague rats posted:

If that's what they meant then you're absolutely right. That's not how I read it, but I can't speak for whoever posted it

I don't think the OP's intention is to undermine the women I'm citing at all and I assume they're on those women's sides. Regardless of intention though, people were actually harassed, likely assaulted based on the language of the letter, or dismissed by Sanders supporters or members of the campaign. They should not have their experiences wrapped up as just projection because some people weaponize their experiences in a bad faith manner.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2021 00:17

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

some plague rats posted:

To my mind the projection is question is not dismissing the women mentioned in the letter, the projection is by the dem partisans who concocted the entire Bernie Bro smear, who accused all his supporters of being white men who love misogyny and all the women were just trying to impress boys and so on who then went immediately to the mat to dismiss the crimes of Biden, Cuomo, etc

Yes, what they means when they said projection.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2021 04:50

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

How are u posted:

Biden has 10 accusers? Reade is the only one I've ever heard of.

I think it's including people with accusations of inappropriate touching or behavior outside of the actual assault Reade reported.

V Oh, maybe I was wrong. V

# ¿ Apr 12, 2021 16:30

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

I feel like the voting stuff is a bit of a non-starter in every direction. People choose who they vote for and cannot vote for anyone for a variety of reasons. People can justify their votes for a wide variety of reasons, in the case of Biden vs Trump, there is literally the matter of Title IX rules that currently make it easier to rape people. And I feel like it turns away conversation from being survivor focused.

# ¿ Apr 13, 2021 21:49

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

Which I think is perverting the intention of #metoo. The purpose of the movement isn't to be a bludgeon against things you don't like, nor does it have anything to with your moral absolution of "canceling" David Bowie. It's to hold the rapists and sexpests legally accountable for their crimes and dismantle the culture that enables and protects them. Part of that culture is the idea that there is "good" art by "good" people who would never do something like exploit vulnerable people, only "bad" people who make "bad" art would do such a thing.

While these goals are not against the intent of MeToo and I also REALLY agree with you, this not the intent of MeToo

The origin of #MeToo came from Tarana Burke after she was teaching a thirteen year old girl who had confided that she had been raped and later wished she had told the child she had also been raped. When it later became more popularized through Alyssa Milano, "If all the women who have been sexually harassed or assaulted wrote �Me too.� as a status, we might give people a sense of the magnitude of the problem."

The movement's roots have always been about empathy, healing, and de-stimagtizing sexual assault.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jun 18, 2021

# ¿ Jun 18, 2021 17:10

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

PT6A posted:

* I'm vaguely uncomfortable with the word "victim" in the case I described, because while I was the "recipient" of a potentially criminal action, I don't actually consider myself a victim of a crime. But I don't think there's a better word to use.

My training has been to tend to lean towards "survivor," but not challenge people who consider themselves victims. EDIT: Sorry, you did talk about this.

silicone thrills posted:

Part of de-stigmatizing sexual assault is to bring it to a point where the police will actually believe the victim instead of immediately writing them off as "asking for it" or "that person would never abuse someone!"

The reason I never spoke with my mother, who was a police officer, about my own rape was she always made it clear that if it happened it was always your own fault. It really hosed me up for a long time to have those combination of factors in my life.

I agree with this and thank you and PT6A in general for being honest and direct about your experiences.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Jun 19, 2021

# ¿ Jun 19, 2021 01:14

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

I think the issue of how the Cosby decision is being discussed is that the values being expressed are good. Prosecutors generally should be held to a high standard, should not lie to people, or walk back an assumed promise because they were doing the legal equivalent of crossing their fingers behind their back. We also don't want prosecutors going back on deals just because of a change in who is in charge.

But the whole thing just seems dubious. As I think people have stated, the circumstances of Cosby's situation and the press release are so unique. It also seems that a lot of work has to be done on Cosby's behalf. The decisions involves a lot of assumptions being made about Cosby's thinking and why he did not invoke his 5th Amendment rights during the Civil Case. I think when we talk about the application of law in regards to class, I do wonder if there is a place for equitable but not necessarily equal application.

Like let's create the parallel situation to Cosby's. The cops pull in a kid in a gang to testify against a member of the gang who murdered someone. The kid has done some bad stuff, but the prosecutor has told them they will be not be prosecuted for anything they bring up in their testimony. It would be bad if the Prosecutor went back on this. But I think it's also fair to say that Cosby and his vast legal team have are much more capable of navigating the legal system. So, should he be given the same benefit of ignorance as some random kid?

But even then, giving such wiggle room is probably problematic. But I do think people are trying to jump on folks who are questioning if the choice was the just decision by trying to move the ball to more broad conversations about the legal systems. But I feel like they're side-stepping what they think would be just. I think it's fair to say it's just that prosecutors can't go back on a deal even if I'm not fully sure that's how this situation should be described.

EDIT: Can people please check condescending others in this thread? Rape, abuse, and harassment are such an epidemic that it's hard to find people not connected to it if not victims/survivors themselves. And berating people--even if you really disagree with them--feels like a lovely thing to do when there is a good chance that this is a really wrought and emotional topic.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jul 6, 2021

# ¿ Jul 6, 2021 16:53

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Regardless of reasoning, I read this AP Article the other day that I think really illustrates how devastating the decision is.

quote:

When Indira Henard, director of the DC Rape Crisis Center, received the text message Wednesday, she thought she wasn�t reading her phone correctly. �Indira oh my god,� said the message from a colleague. �Cosby�s walking out of prison.�

�I put on the news and there it was, and my heart just dropped,� Henard said. �I thought about how all our survivors would be feeling.�

During the afternoon, Henard says the center�s hotline was �off the hook, with survivors needing a place to process, and people asking, �What happened? I don�t understand. He got convicted. Why would they do this?�� The center held support sessions Wednesday evening and scheduled emergency sessions Thursday to deal with the news.

I honestly tend to get annoyed by people writing obituaries for MeToo, but I think it's important to remember how traumatizing something like this can be. Abusers tend to make their victims powerless often gaslighting them or legitimately threatening to believe they have no control or means for justice or safety. Obviously Cosby's ruling--regardless of anything else--is tied to his unique level of celebrity and wealth. Still, it is a reminder that when courts act unwisely or callously that it does impact survivors and challenge their faith in living a life they control.

But more importantly we need to remember that dismantling systems of power is difficult and has and will be a hard road.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jul 14, 2021

# ¿ Jul 8, 2021 00:25

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

E:Nevermind

# ¿ Jul 8, 2021 01:46

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

I think while it's hard to find a silver lining with the Cosby case, it's important to remember that the underlying issue was that the notion of even prosecuting Cosby at all was just not taken seriously when the press release was created. Progress rarely is a straight line and our legal system is run by people, so we're never going to see consistent change. I agree that Weinstein's conviction was amazing, and there are valid cynical reasons we can explore for why Weinstein was brought down, but we also shouldn't treat is an aberration, but sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth on that end, Willa. Cosby's initial conviction was also in many ways an amazing thing compared to where we started from despite how lovely he ended up.

And I understand that progress doesn't feel like much. The Hannibal Buress bit people often cite as the start of Cosby's downfall is a good example of how we were starting from a place where Cosby was very clearly a serial rapist and people just didn't even acknowledge it.

A good example of what I'm talking about is This Havard Business Review study.

quote:

We measured sexual harassment along three dimensions: gender harassment, unwanted sexual attention, and sexual coercion. Gender harassment involves negative treatment of women that is not necessarily sexual, but may include things like a supervisor or coworker making sexist remarks, telling inappropriate stories, or displaying sexist material. Unwanted sexual attention includes coworker or supervisor behaviors such as staring, leering, ogling, or unwanted touching. Sexual coercion includes bribing or pressuring women to engage in sexual behavior. We also measured participants� self-esteem and self-doubt, to see how these correlated with their experiences.

What did we find? In terms of what has changed, we saw that fewer women in our sample reported sexual coercion and unwanted sexual attention following the #MeToo movement. In 2016, 25% of women reported being sexually coerced, and in 2018 that number had declined to 16%. Unwanted sexual attention declined from 66% of women to 25%. In contrast, we noticed an increase in reports of gender harassment, from 76% of women in 2016 to 92% in 2018. This data suggests that while blatant sexual harassment � experiences that drive many women out of their careers � might be declining, workplaces may be seeing a �backlash effect,� or an increase in hostility toward women.

Is that progress? I'd say so. Is it progress that feels good? Not particularly and it's okay to feel lovely about it. But I'd also argue that we cannot be absolute in our failures or minimize our successes in the face of our failures.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jul 8, 2021

# ¿ Jul 8, 2021 17:17

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

I think to some degree there is also like a weird aspirationalness with the discourse around men and rape and the risk of being falsely accused. Like something you'll hear is how men have to be careful now when they try to sleep with a woman. Like this fear of dudes going out to bars and just trying to have a fun time but any little thing being misconstrued. It's a bullshit argument on many levels, but for most men that's not actually that big of an issue because the average person only has sex with like 6-8 people.

For the vast majority of people, the times they are initiating sex with a new sexual partner are very, very low over the course of your life. Not that rape can't happen in relationships of course, but more the idea that some hot blooded man on the prowl is going to get screwed over by some random lady on one of their nightly conquests is pretty divorced from how most people live.

So, when you get a guy like Cosby on top of relating to a man who has more money and power than they'll ever actually have, you have men basically pretending that our out of control war against men puts people like them who are of course having or had sex with many, many women in danger. And of course you can be a dude who has had many partners and not be lovely, but the idea of status in sexual conquest is toxic and adds another layer of normal people cheerleading wealthy ghouls.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Jul 14, 2021

# ¿ Jul 8, 2021 23:28

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

This New York Time piece on trends in Egyptian authorities abusing power to essentially rape and sexually assault women is very harrowing and worth exploring. I know the paywall sucks, but not linking specific text because it's a whole multi-media thing that I think is worth finagling with. The site also makes the purposeful decision of allowing you hear these women's voices despite language barriers.

While it creates a narrative of a history of abuse during examinations and searches including women being complicit and even initiating such things, it is also worth exploring for its first person narratives of brave women speaking about their experiences. It's also a reminder of how rape and abuse are used as tools against dissent and rebellion.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jul 9, 2021

# ¿ Jul 9, 2021 15:57

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

some plague rats posted:

What's the actual possible legal outcomes here? Because from what I'm reading, it seems like the strongest possible result of all this investigating and gathering testimony and so on is going to be someone calling a press conference to say "yeah it definitely seems like his staff mishandled some complaints. Lessons will be learned. Okay thanks everyone for coming out today."?

Impeachment would probably be as far is it goes unless there is more than the harassment and grooming we've seen. I'm doubtful of the impeachment angle, but not absolutely. I think if they found quid pro quo for example chances would be stronger. But yeah, I think some public shaming and then just trying to push through his term is probably most likely, sadly. His big punishment will be not running a failed presidential campaign which is more of a favor really, but he'll still complain about it because a man not getting exactly what he wants is the biggest tragedy in America.

I think the big thing about the Cuomo stuff is that the harassment is being lumped in with the nursing home stuff and misappropriating funds. In short, Cuomo getting any consequence is rooted in the question of if Cuomo misused his power for personal gain in general. Warped numbers to look better and misused money. That's why I feel like him being generally a lovely creep is probably going to be written off unless he straight up raped someone or clearly used his power for sexual favors. Being a sex creep in general is kinda secondary to the abuse of power which is lovely on multiple levels.

Ytlaya posted:

This will end with Cuomo having a beer with all of the women in a touching moment of forgiveness and understanding

Willa Rogers posted:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/15/nyregion/cuomo-investigation-harassment.html

It's a serious topic that I think deserves more effort than an emoji and confusing satire that casts brave women speaking out against their abuser as props.

V Then make the status update without an emoji that makes the topic look like a joke. There are actual people taking risks to seek justice regardless of how unlikely that justice might seem. V

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jul 16, 2021

# ¿ Jul 16, 2021 15:06

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Willa Rogers posted:

I've made plenty of effort posts about Cuomo in this thread & others.

Yesterday's post was a status update of the state's investigation, and I'm not sure how much further discussion that warrants till either his testimony is published and/or leaked, or till James announces the results, and whether there will be an indictment.

eta: I'll edit out the emoji.

I appreciate that a lot and thank you for listening.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2021 15:37

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Moving away from the realm of powerful men, the Times ran this piece that paints a picture of what many normal victims go through, and it is pretty horrifying

quote:

Most New York City prosecutors� offices rejected a greater percentage of sex crime cases in 2019, the last year for which reliable data is available, than they did roughly a decade earlier, before the case against Harvey Weinstein touched off a national reckoning.

In the Manhattan district attorney�s office, prosecutors dropped 49 percent of sexual assault cases in 2019 � among the highest rates in the city, and an increase from 37 percent in 2017, state data shows. Only the Bronx rejected a greater percentage of cases. The data excludes most sex crimes against children, and certain nonviolent offenses like stalking.

The low prosecution rate partly reflects the inherent challenges of prosecuting sexual assault, particularly cases like Ms. Duong�s, in which the attacker is not a stranger and alcohol is involved. For cases that are not dropped, conviction rates for sexual assault cases are typically much lower than for other violent crimes: 44 percent in Manhattan in 2019, compared with 79 percent for first-degree murder.

I don't love the "despite Metoo" headline as that's not really the movement's job, and it sort of buries the lead on these disgusting numbers playing a role in the recent primary election for DA.

quote:

Alvin Bragg, a former federal prosecutor who won the Democratic primary for district attorney, making him the heavy favorite to succeed Mr. Vance, has promised to revamp the office�s beleaguered sex crimes bureau.

Mr. Bragg, in an interview, said he planned to �reboot� the sex crimes bureau �from the ground up,� by assessing its leadership and staff with input from survivors. He said he also intended to evaluate why certain cases are rejected, and that the likelihood of a conviction should not be a determining factor.

Of course these are all just campaign promises.

But I feel like the following anecdote was really worth relaying because it really gives up the game of how rape victims are treated...

quote:

t was Sept. 30, 2017, and the woman, then a graduate student at Fordham University, had been drinking heavily at her sorority�s party at a venue in Brooklyn. She said she recalled trying to help a drunk friend in the bathroom, when, she said, a male friend came in and raped her. (The Times does not publish the names of rape victims unless they choose to be identified.)

Later that night, she said, she woke up to the man raping her again while choking her in his room at City College in Manhattan, where he was a student. She said that she did not remember how she got there from the party, and that the man was recording her with his cellphone.

When she realized what was happening, she said, she grabbed the phone and ran into the bathroom. She then showed the video to another student, Carlos Colon, who had been in the next room. After seeing the video, Mr. Colon fought with the man, and was later charged with assault. Mr. Colon said in an interview that the woman had appeared to be unresponsive in the video.

Soon after the encounter with the woman, the man spoke by phone with one of his fraternity brothers, who recorded the call and provided it to The Times. During that call, the student admitted to filming the woman, and said that was where he had �messed up.� He later told his fraternity brothers that he had had sex with the woman while she was asleep, two of them said in interviews.

The woman reported the attack, but during the three-month investigation that followed, she said prosecutors seemed skeptical. They asked her how much she had had to drink, why she did not fight back and whether she had wanted to cheat on her boyfriend, she said.

Prosecutors told the woman that the intoxication she described did not constitute being �physically helpless� under the state�s law and that they could not prove that she did not consent, according to a recording of the conversation. They never found the video.

...

In January 2018, a judge granted prosecutors� request to dismiss the case against the City College student. Through his public defender, the student declined to comment on the case.

But the Fordham student was not the only woman to accuse him of rape.

In defending Mr. Colon against the assault charge, his lawyer, Nathaniel J. Broughty, filed a court motion in January 2018 saying that the student faced another rape accusation, and that City College campus police had found videos on his phone that showed him having sex with unconscious women. But the videos were gone by the time prosecutors searched the phone. Citing privacy concerns, college officials did not respond to questions from The Times about the videos and their investigation.

The Times also interviewed another woman, Maria Guzman, who said that she and a friend had been drinking at the man�s home in Queens in 2016. Ms. Guzman, now 25, said she awoke in pain to him raping her. While in and out of consciousness, she said, she saw him rape her friend, who was completely unconscious.

Ms. Guzman, after learning through friends about the alleged rape in 2017 at City College, said she reported her attack to the police in Manhattan, who told her to speak with detectives in Queens. Feeling dismissed, she dropped the matter.

Though the City College student was never charged in relation to the other accusations, prosecutors could have used their testimony to try to bolster the case they had against him.

Karen Friedman Agnifilo, the former Manhattan chief assistant district attorney, acknowledged that the office had erred in this case by not following investigative leads.

Karen Friedman Agnifilo, the former Manhattan chief assistant district attorney, acknowledged that the office had erred in this case by not following investigative leads.

A 2018 investigation by City College found that the student had engaged in �nonconsensual sexual intercourse� with the woman whose case had been dropped by the district attorney. The student was suspended for four years, university records show.

But the only person punished was Mr. Colon, now 27, whose charges were dismissed only after the completion of community service.

tl:dr: A woman is raped, there is a witness, witness beats up the rapist, rapist also admits it and there are witnesses to him being a rapist, and the only charge is an assault charge on the guy who beat him up.

I think what we really need to consider though when we discuss the difficulty of proving rape cases is how much are the prosecutors actually doing the legwork, but also how much would it matter if they did. Think of it this way, even if the cases fail, having the police dig into your poo poo is scary and an inconvenience. Maybe the case doesn't go anywhere, but we know how just being investigated for a crime can take its toll on people. It acts as a deterrent by itself.

# ¿ Jul 19, 2021 15:58

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Cranappleberry posted:

not politicians but doctors are well-protected, too, usually by other doctors.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/doctor-accused-groping-harassing-24-100000686.html

Yeah, the Times article I posted cites a monstrous gynecologist.

some plague rats posted:

Not sure that's true- it is extremely hard to prove rape in a court of law, which is absolutely by design. The idea is that even if you somehow end up with DAs and prosecutors who actually want to try and charge rape cases, they're going to find it impossible to actually get those cases over the line.

It's definitely a mix of lovely systems, laws, and people. I think at one point it sucks but is not totally unreasonable that there are going to be rape cases that just legitimately end up being hard to prove, but I think the issue is that rape cases being hard to prove becomes sort of a rule of thumb instead of something that can be true. So even when you get the most Hollywood version of things where a lady fights off her offender, steals the evidence, a knight in shining armor beats up the rapist, and other dudes step up and do the right thing to confirm that he admitted he's raped people... you still end up with people going, "Who's to say?" on the premise of its rape and not the actual circumstances.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2021 16:56

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

I feel like the current Activision-Blizzard situation is definitely worth getting into here. It's actually an interesting case study for multiple reasons. There are a lot of good pieces on it, but this CNet article is a good primer if you're not familiar.

quote:

When dozens of Activision Blizzard employees staged a walkout on Wednesday it was the latest update in a troubling week for the company behind Call of Duty and World of Warcraft. Activision Blizzard has been rocked by an explosive lawsuit filing last week when the state of California accused it of workplace discrimination against its female workforce.

The suit, filed by the Department of Fair Employment and Housing, argues that the company has a "frat boy" workplace culture and alleges several alarming incidents of discrimination and harassment.

[...]

What is Activision Blizzard accused of?
The DFEH's suit accuses Activision Blizzard of workplace discrimination. It alleges women are compensated unfairly -- paid less for the same job, scrutinized more heavily than their male peers -- and subject to considerable harassment. The agency called Activision Blizzard a "breeding ground for harassment and discrimination," in which women are subject to regular sexual advances by (often high-ranking) men who largely go unpunished.

Illustrative of the claims DFEH is making against Activision is an office ritual referred to as "cube crawls," in which men allegedly drink "copious" amounts of alcohol, crawl through the office cubicles and engage in "inappropriate behavior" including groping. The lawsuit describes incidents including allegations that a female employee died by suicide during a business trip as a result of a toxic relationship with a supervisor.

"Women and girls now make up almost half of gamers in America, but the gaming industry continues to cater to men," the suit reads. "Activision-Blizzard's double-digit percentage growth, 10-figure annual revenues and recent diversity marketing campaigns have unfortunately changed little."

And then employees reacted?
After DFEH filed its suit, Activision Blizzard responded with a lengthy statement that said the department had filed a rushed, inaccurate report with "distorted, and in many cases false, descriptions of [Activision Blizzard's] past." In an email sent to staff, published by Bloomberg's Jason Schreier, vice president of corporate affairs Frances Townsend said the site presented "a distorted and untrue picture of our company, including factually incorrect, old, and out of context stories -- some from more than a month ago."

These statements evidently didn't satisfy employees, neither current nor former. Over 2,000 of them signed an open letter to Activision Blizzard leadership in which they criticized the company's response. (Activision Blizzard currently has around 10,000 employees.)

"To put it clearly and unequivocally, our values as employees are not accurately reflected in the words and actions of our leadership," the open letter reads, according to Bloomberg. "To claim this is a 'truly meritless and irresponsible lawsuit' while seeing so many current and former employees speak out about their own experiences regarding harassment and abuse is simply unacceptable."

The letter signed by employees made three demands. First, that the company issue statements that acknowledge the severity of the allegations. Second, that Townsend resign from her role as executive sponsor of the ABK Employee Women's Network. Third, that Activision Blizzard's executive leadership collaborate with employees to ensure a safe workspace to "speak out and come forward."

The story is horrifying, but I think symbolic of a different kind of story in which not one powerful man is abusing his power, but a toxic is culture allowed abuse on a mass scale which led to the suicide of an employee. It's such a horrible story that the particular horrible experiences like the treatment of Black women can be lost in the shuffle per The Washington Post.

quote:

The court complaint against Activision Blizzard claims that Black women were �micromanaged� and forced to justify short breaks and requests for time off, while no other workers were required to do so. It also said Black women at the company were singled out for their �body language� and scolded for asking for help when other employees did not receive similar treatment. Regulators also accuse the company of making hiring decisions based on women�s looks.

I think the story is a useful case study and point of discussion for a few reasons:

--Like I said, it speaks to issues of rape culture over tales of one corrupt man, the broader point of MeToo.

--California is actually doing something and this might actually serve as a model of how good government can effectively impact this sort of thing.

--I think most importantly, this reminds us that rape culture is not an issue of the character of certain individuals. Like racism or capitalism, it is a disease that infects many parts of our nation. Just like racism and capitalism are separate forces, but inherently intertwined ones, so is rape culture, fundamentally making it a labor issue, but not something that can only be viewed through a labor and class based lens.

I think that it is heartening to see Activision-Blizzard employees use traditional labor organization practices to further put pressure on the company. I think it also brings up a topic that really should be given more focus: Forced Arbitration, one of the main things Activision-Blizzarrd employees are demanding ends. Banning Forced Arbitration would not only be huge for labor in general, but specifically would neuter the ability of companies to protect abusers.

We have seen some headway on this with the banning of federal contractors using forced arbitration, and the FAIR Act would end it on a broader scale. It's one of the main things labor attorneys lobby for.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2021 17:11

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

some plague rats posted:

What are they actually doing? I don't really know enough about the weird way American law breaks down by state and what they actually have the power to do, what's the possible outcome here?

Well at a basic level the government is actually the ones doing the lawsuit. The employees aren't the plaintiff here, California's Department of of Fair Employment and Housing is. So, it's not Blizzard-Activison going against just some brave employees and their lawyers who they can easily outspend and push for a settlement. They're going against the world's fifth largest economy. And I think you've already seen the impact with the walkout. When the government takes the back of workers over a corporation, it gives them permission to stand their ground. But they are basically seeking to get the company to pay damages,* change their wages practices including backpay, and also pay penalties for not complying with the Equal Pay Act. In short, they are coming at 'em hard. But who knows how this will pan out.

quote:

Was reading earlier that they've brought in the scumbag law firm that helped Amazon bust their union drive to deal with their "HR response" in yet another example of the rape culture/labour crossover you mentioned- not only will we learn nothing and bend over backwards to avoid punishing the guilty, we'll actively bring in the pinkertons to make sure you serfs don't get together and force us to make changes, all while speaking in the hideous corporate dialect of listening and hearing and altering behaviour going forward

These are the people who hired a PR Rep for the Concept of Torture as their Chief Compliance officer.

I mean I have faces sexual harassment and gender discrimination, and a lot of my life is spent supporting kids through trauma. The fact that the Activision/Blizzard stuff has actually shocked me is very telling and just how goddamn evil these guys are.

*Once again a woman died after being cajoled in a relationship with a supervisor and who probably passed on a photo of her vagina to her co-workers, some of these bastards should be treated like straight up murderers so this part is still sadly lighter than it should be in a fairer world.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jul 30, 2021

# ¿ Jul 30, 2021 17:57

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

The report is out and says what everyone expected it do although my understanding is that there are confirmed cased discovered beyond the initial accusations. I don't think I recall the state trooper allegation before. I'm linking the updating CNN article because it includes political reactions that I know people are interested in, fairly. For what it's worth, we are actually hearing calls for resignation from the Majority Leader and the Assembly Speaker probably getting a sore butt from fence sitting, describing the report as actions that would make someone not fit for office.

I think the question now in terms of consequences is if there are people actively trying to push Cuomo to resign and if he doesn't, will they impeach. I think my broader frustration is that outside of the harassment issues, Cuomo already has a bunch of impeachable actions. It's similar to Trump in sort of holding out to get all the bad stuff, and that's obviously the most good faith interpretation of events.

But a bunch of women proved to the world that what they experienced was true and that does matter despite whatever else happens.

Also gently caress Cuomo.

EDIT: Here is the AG Page with the report available.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Aug 3, 2021

# ¿ Aug 3, 2021 17:47

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Lib and let die posted:

Are we going to get pressure campaigns of "if you think Cuomo should step down/be impeached then you want a current democrat position filled by a republican, do you?!"

I think the New York City mayoral race is indicative of a shifting away from viability for Republicans in New York honestly. Even at the state level, Cuomo is the result of Eliot Spitzer's prostitute addiction followed by David Peterson's barely functioning administration. You could have imagined after three years of a total disaster of Democratic Control on the heels of the generally well-liked Pataki administration, Republicans would be able to win, but nope. Cuomo trounced his competition. So, I dunno if the Republican boogeyman is effective in this case.

As far as who would take over, it's the Lt. Governor Hochul who is not great in terms of her political beliefs, but there is legitimately some separation from the Lt. Governor and the Governor in New York, so it's hard to judge her complicity. You can see her response here that similar to Speaker ties in sitting on the fence while seeming like she is giving a sharp rebuke.

quote:

Sexual harassment is unacceptable in any workplace, and certainly not in public service. The Attorney General�s investigation has documented repulsive and unlawful behavior by the Governor towards multiple women. I believe these brave women and admire their courage coming forward. No one is above the law. Under the New York Constitution, the Assembly will now determine the next step

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Aug 3, 2021

# ¿ Aug 3, 2021 20:35

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Comedy option is that Cuomo has the party turn on him because he implicitly took aim at Obama.

While probably not, it is almost funny how broken Cuomo's worldview is. The photos of Bush and Obama hugging people are ya know, consensual. It's sad and upset people looking for a hug and getting a hug. I don't think he's even using the photos in bad faith because if you knew you were you would also know how ridiculous a point it is. He just doesn't understand the difference between giving a consensual hug and touching someone inappropriately without care for their comfort.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2021 16:30

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Lib and let die posted:

I always end up pondering a chicken-or-egg scenario with powerful people like Cuomo.

Well I think there are two things at play here. One, power in the way that we mean with Cuomo is not something that he ever didn't have. Cuomo is much like Trump in that he was born into his power.

But I think it's also worth broadening your definition of power because abuse doesn't tend to happen without some power dynamic. Cuomo has very obvious power because he was governor of the 10th richest economy in the world. But being a CIS man is in itself power. Being straight is power. Being white is power. Being older is power. Having more money than someone is power. Being traditionally able is power. Being older is power. Being in charge of someone, not just in work, but as a parent or educator or religious leader is power. And so on and so forth.

The Cuomos of the world are so grotesque because of their level of power and how they often wield it to such a broader scope. That's all to say that their wealth and status aren't non-factors, but it's always about power. And we need to remember that the vast majority of people who are being sexually harassed and abused are being victimized by people with much, much less power than Cuomo. It doesn't take much for people who are inclined to think they can abuse someone.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Aug 6, 2021

# ¿ Aug 5, 2021 16:35

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Sorry I did and thank you for sharing it, but didn't connect it with your username. Sorry if anything in my post was insensitive on that front.

V I�m glad!

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Aug 5, 2021

# ¿ Aug 5, 2021 16:57

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

misadventurous posted:

If Biden is gonna call on Cuomo to resign he should probably also stop huffing kids

https://twitter.com/AuronMacintyre/status/1423426782250868737

Really disgusting!! That is not the body language of a child who�s ok with grandpa doing that

Biden has touched people inappropriately and is obviously a hypocrite EVEN if you don't believe Tara Reade.

But also maybe not post an image that can easily be out of context posted by a guy who seems to be a fascist prick based on everything else on his twitter.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2021 15:07

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 18:39

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

I don't think I'm being partisan. This isn't a Fox News Article or one of Clinton's rape victims who became a conservative. It's some transphobic fascist sympathizer nobody on twitter posting a photo with no context that could easily be Biden in mid-motion and applying a flippant take on it. Biden has been inappropriate at the very minimum with people and I believe he sexually assaulted at least one person, but just some random photo posted from some fascist nobody I think belittles the actual discourse and experience of those victims.

Lib and let die posted:

Yeah I wasn't gonna really say it but it's kind of weird that you would bring up Tara Reade in what appears to be the context of "she shouldn't have been doubted" (correct me if i'm wrong, though!)

I think I was speaking more from a personal frustration the question of if Biden is a creep has been a binary of if Reade was right or not. I personally was frustrated the DNC didn't go after him early on when the accusations of inappropriate touching and gendered micro-aggressions came up. The whole "Well, he's the likely nominee and Trump is worse" rational bothered me because he should have been gone after earlier. And I feel like with even with the Reade stuff, if you actually follow her narrative, even if she did change her story she had very solid collaboration before that which explained Biden's office was a lovely place to work. And I feel like people who have not believed Reade have used that non-belief to eradicate everything else. But I am sorry that it came off as a non-sequitur.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2021 16:14

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > #metoo and the impact of rape culture

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