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The asymmetrical warfare that the new faction adds is a ton of fun. Got me to finally jump into multiplayer last night and had a blast, and people were largely chill and friendly.
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Mar 11, 2023 18:36
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The OSP really shakes up the game in a good way. There is no thrill like managing a drive-by ambush on a battleship with a couple of rocket shuttles. "Nice 3000 points of dreadnought you got there. Be a shame if a couple of good old boys from the belt in 500 points of shuttles with Katyushas bolted to them took it out."
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Mar 11, 2023 21:58
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Arghy posted:Happened to be reading the expanse then saw this randomly on youtube and it looks amazing and totally scratches my space sim itch but i'm afraid to buy it now as i don't have the free time haha. Surprised this isn't more popular, i'm totally gonna grab it once some more content drops. Now would be a good time since there's been such a big drop and there probably won't be another for a good long while. Dev team is like 5 folks workin part time
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Mar 12, 2023 18:48
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Have kept playing since the OSP update, which is new for me. In the past I'd check out the latest update, go "huh that's neat but [mechanic] needs more time in the oven," and be gone within a week. Not this time. This time it's stuck. At the end of the day, there aren't any mechanics that I feel are negative play experiences. There was always something in the past that I'd get fed up with, whether it was old-style railgun dominance or gigastacking ECM or absurdly stealthy hybrid missiles, but the game's dealt with pretty much all of the egregious stuff now. Everything has a counter, whether through build or tactics or both, and executing those counters is interesting rather than agonizing. Though I'm not skilled enough to say this with total confidence, right now the game feels like it favors bringing a toolbox rather than a hard skew; counters are "hard" enough to encourage threatening and probing along multiple axes rather than going all-in on one and just hoping for the best. Been considering writing some ship-specific strategy pieces. The game is deep enough to warrant it and I'm now getting experienced enough to identify most of the common ship builds. The gun battleship, for example, is a simple ship at first glance - yet all too easy to misuse in practice. Contrasting the Axford and the Ocello would also be a fascinating exercise. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Jun 4, 2023 |
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Jun 4, 2023 17:23
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As a sicko who has won games with double gun battleships I would greatly enjoy such writeups. Double container ships is possible, but less comedic with the current PD meta.
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Jun 4, 2023 19:25
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habituallyred posted:double gun battleships That's pretty wild; when last I looked at the possibility it seemed like two battleships would actually be less capable than one, given the lack of points for buff modules. What can you afford on those?
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Jun 4, 2023 21:03
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Honestly just go double Axford instead. The original idea was to field it just enough that people would accept that the second giant radar signature could be a battleship. Then break out the gun battleship/a Raines escort with a battleship sized radar signature. But for posterity: 3 x MK66 Double Barreled 450, front facing 2 x CR 10s; structurally integral, on those sunken side mounts 1 x Bullseye on Prow mount (Originally a floodlight, swapped out a parallax for point reasons) 5 X Defenders, remaining "external" mounts Room for improvement on where the internal stuff is, so leaving out the nitty gritty. Reinforced Magazine: 6000 Defender rounds, 450 HE, 100 AP 2 x Basic CIC as far from each other as possible 4 x Rapid DC I have too much self respect to take one engine out; but have improved design by taking out redundant reactor 1 x Frontline Radar 1 x Mount Gyro 3 x Ammo Elevator One of the won games came on a mod map where I despaired of getting the second ship from the thoroughly secured bottom to the top before the end of the match. A very surprised backcapping corvette rued that day.
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Jun 4, 2023 22:17
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Yeah, some of those design compromises - PD in particular - are big oofs. I've been sufficiently traumatized by S2 rolloff spam that I will never leave home without maximum flak. Not a big fan of double Axford either though, tbh. Spoilers for if/when I write up a piece dedicated to them, but I really think Axfords are designed to take advantage of multiple weapon systems - which tends to either preclude taking two or makes the second kind of redundant compared to diversifying on hulls. I've seen single Axfords wreck house by putting points into either big hybrid capability or a beam plus escorts/cappers for map control, but double gun Axford feels like it gives up a lot of durability compared to a gun BB without actually gaining that much in map mobility. Workable but lackluster ime. The double-gunship build that I do like is double Ocellos... which means I have some harsh words for ANS procurement. Ocellos just kick all kinds of rear end, even if they die the instant that they get flanked. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jun 4, 2023 |
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Jun 4, 2023 23:20
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Okay, let's take a minute to discuss the Gun Battleship. The battleship chassis has two unique defensive features: thick armor and sheer size. If you're going to bring a BB, you want to leverage these defensive strengths. The simplest way to do this is, of course, by bowtanking. Like all ANS warships of cruiser size or larger, the BB is designed to face the enemy: it is long rather than wide and presents highly angled armor across most of it's relatively narrow front profile. These angles multiply the effective armor thickness across most of it's frontal target profile. For a BB, sporting thick armor to begin with, that makes it possible to deflect even 450mm shells from some angles. This effective armor thickness is then further multiplied by the ship's sheer size and internal density, since any shell that penetrates armor will be further slowed by crashing through the ship's structure. The result is that impacts from the front are basically never going to damage components in the back, or even middle - which are always the critical ones for the ship's operation. Size also has the advantage of permitting a huge complement of damage control teams. Given how slowly damage will leak through to critical components, it's not difficult for a BB's damage control complement to repeatedly return damaged compartments to operation. As long as the incoming damage is too infrequent to punch out reinforced components with consecutive hits, a BB can keep trucking almost indefinitely. Even if the occasional significant compartment goes grey, the sheer amount of restores that a BB can bring makes it easy to fix.  Good luck, I'm behind 7 reinforced modules! Step one of battleship doctrine is, therefore, to always be pointed toward the enemy and avoid being flanked. Attacks from the side, after all, will bypass most of the BB's unique defensive advantages. It's components are still tough, but if you're not bowtanking then your damage control teams won't have a prayer of keeping up. The gun BB's primary armament is the 450mm gun - a long range weapon that inflicts heavy attrition over time. It's a good weapon, one that the BB can buff to the max thanks to it's many module slots, but that "over time" part of the description is a very important limitation given our vulnerability to being flanked. If you play aggressively early, which is an overwhelming temptation with this giant imposing ship, then you will almost certainly get flanked by overwhelming force and die before you can inflict compensating damage of your own. Even the powerful 450mm gun takes time to kill a prepared target; I once saw a bowtank duel between a gun BB and a pair of Ocellos that lasted for the entire match because no third party intervened. If you position aggressively and get mired in such an attritional gunfight, even one that you would eventually win, then you're very likely to get flanked and die for nothing. A BB is not maneuverable enough to quickly escape a bad situation, especially after taking inevitable thruster damage from bowtanking. (Side note: the one exception to this is that you can disrespect the poo poo out of monitors. Monitors are the epitome of tough exterior shell with soft gooey insides... and the only thing that exterior shell does against 450mm is prevent over-penetration. Their weapons are just as deadly as any if left alone, but monitors die shockingly fast to a gun BB.)  Just a few big compartments with no meaningful depth. Tapdancing on monitors aside, the gun BB is not a hammer; it's an anvil. If you play carefully, staying at range and using cover and teammates' sensors to limit flanking angles, it's effectively impossible to remove you with gunfire. Even in the near-draw Ocello example, the Ocellos will eventually lose (even if it takes so long that it's mostly academic) and are even more vulnerable to being flanked. That means you can squat on a long fire line and dare the other side to fight you in positions where they are vulnerable to your team. If you can fix the enemy in place with gunfire, or restrict their movement with the threat of gunfire, that gives your team opportunities to outmaneuver them. That requires you to find safe positions that can still exert meaningful area control, which is not a trivial evaluation. Worse still, it requires your team to then recognize these opportunities and take advantage of them. The fact is, a gun BB is extremely reliant on the team. You won't have many small craft to scout, contest points, or make risky plays if you bring a gun BB. Only in the late game, after the enemy team has been scouted and attritioned to the point where flanking ceases to be a major threat, can you really play aggressively. You can create opportunities by limiting enemy options, but you can't take full advantage of those opportunities. If you team is too passive or too reckless, or simply too uncoordinated, then there's very little you can do with a gun BB to change the outcome. If your team can't or won't play the control point game, you certainly won't have the hulls to do it yourself! Playing a gun BB means accepting a significant loss of agency. I don't think the gun BB is bad or unfun - it's one of my personal favorites, in fact - but the conservative positioning that a gun BB requires tends to prohibit punishing opposing mistakes in the way that a CL wolfpack, cruise missile fleet, or beam BB could. (Side note: the reason a beam BB can play proactively while a gun BB struggles to do is because beams have a better chance of murdering flankers before they can disable the BB. Beams do absurd amounts of damage within their limited range bubble, which pretty drastically alters the tactical priorities of a beam BB compared to a gun BB. I don't personally play beam BBs though, so I won't attempt to elaborate on specifics.) Finally, before we go, a quick word on missiles.  Pay your taxes. As resilient as BBs are against frontal gunfire, missiles can still smash them. I am of the firm opinion that a BB should always fill every single point defense mount, without compromise, and really wants to bring some softkill to boot. An undamaged BB can mount a seemingly absurd amounts of PD, but gunfights have a way of degrading PD networks. Heck, even an undamaged but isolated BB's hardkill can be swamped by a really dedicated missile spam fleet - and given the size of the prize, there's no reason for the enemy to make anything less than their maximum effort. Give yourself a fighting chance by bringing an excellent point defense network. Bring a lot of both stonewalls (for S2 spam) and defenders (for container spam). Doing anything less will undermine your role as an nigh-impossible-to-dislodge area control piece.
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Jun 5, 2023 04:42
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Nice writeup. I really enjoy this game. It got so much going for it. 3D warfare, sensor and electronic warfare, missiles, the many different playstyles, and then ultimately coordinate all this with your teammates.
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Jun 5, 2023 06:11
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Knew it was going to be good when I saw the back slot turretless. Do you go with all AMMs or mix in some short range stuff for if you get flanked? On that point I noticed you have substantial PD in the side pits. I can never get those to shoot enough threats to justify Stonewalls or above.
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Jun 6, 2023 03:34
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habituallyred posted:Knew it was going to be good when I saw the back slot turretless. Do you go with all AMMs or mix in some short range stuff for if you get flanked? On that point I noticed you have substantial PD in the side pits. I can never get those to shoot enough threats to justify Stonewalls or above. At the moment I use the VLS-1 for softkill, but AMMs are a completely viable option that can do a lot to blunt the first few huge missile waves. Right now I use the points from not bringing AMMs to afford a second bullseye + gun corvette (which is also part of my answer against enemy small ships - outsource the secondary battery). Never regretted bringing all six stonewalls though; I'm really not kidding about needing every single mount against dedicated S2 fleets. If I could fit even more stonewalls without sacrificing 450 turrets or active decoy capability, I would. e: Part of why I wrote in generalities most of the time is that I keep tweaking my fleets to reflect new experiences and meta shifts. Most recently, for example, I doubled the PD ammo on my BB after running out and dying against the rare double-containership OSP team. e2: Thinking about it, sustainability is precisely the reason I shy away from AMMs. They work wonders against missile waves from small ships that can't afford huge missile magazines, but against a container ship or missile bulker that can and will chuck wave after wave after wave... well, flak shells and 20mm ammo are a lot cheaper than AMMs. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Jun 6, 2023 |
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Jun 6, 2023 03:58
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Corbeau posted:Excellent write-up How do you feel about using the MK62 in the side slots with RPF rounds as part of your PD network?
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Jun 6, 2023 04:35
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Phrosphor posted:How do you feel about using the MK62 in the side slots with RPF rounds as part of your PD network? Not something I'd do post-RPF nerf.
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Jun 6, 2023 04:38
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I mostly float around with 6xFrigates in two task groups of 3 to hunt monitors and shuttles early game and then provide cap, vision and fire support late game. I do use a lot of RPF and RPF-PreFire to deal with rocket swarms but maybe that isn't a thing at the higher skill levels?
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Jun 6, 2023 05:07
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On the contrary, huge frigblobs with ewar and guns are popularly considered the strongest build in the game. They were the main reason RPF got nerfed, and they are still extremely good after the nerf. I just don't see them often because most people don't particularly want to manage a ton of ships and I don't play anything more competitive than random lobbies. They're real nasty when someone does dig them out to prove a point though.
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Jun 6, 2023 05:54
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How does one get into this game? The 3d part of the interface seemed pretty fiddly when I gave it a go back a year or so ago and I ended up bouncing off. It seems wonderfully deep but the tutorials didn't really help much beyond the basic mechanics.
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Jun 6, 2023 06:01
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wins32767 posted:How does one get into this game? The 3d part of the interface seemed pretty fiddly when I gave it a go back a year or so ago and I ended up bouncing off. It seems wonderfully deep but the tutorials didn't really help much beyond the basic mechanics. Honestly the best way is to get into some games. I don't think many goons are currently playing but having a four stack on discord would be very strong and you would get coached while you play. The hardest part of the game is actually the ship building side, in actual combat it's a lot of common sense like not exposing yourself to too many angles at once and making the best use of cover, knowing when to commit to move and when to stay put. If you are looking for general info I recommend https://www.youtube.com/@JDeeGaming, they have a bunch of videos going over a whole range of topics and their delivery is really good. Ewar is very intimidating when you first look at it but it generally comes down to X counters Y. Oh and never ever fight inside a 'friendly' minefield. There is no such thing as a friendly mine. I might play some games this weekend actually, it's been awhile since I had some games. Edit: We could add a new player guide to the OP or something? The game is good and the dev is intensely invested. When the faction warfare system comes in I fully intend to deeply commit. Phrosphor fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Jun 6, 2023 |
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Jun 6, 2023 06:12
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wins32767 posted:How does one get into this game? The 3d part of the interface seemed pretty fiddly when I gave it a go back a year or so ago and I ended up bouncing off. It seems wonderfully deep but the tutorials didn't really help much beyond the basic mechanics. I often found myself frustrated with the interface until the OSP update. I think what happened is the game finally got compelling enough to make me stick with it long enough for the interface to click. It really is quite good once you understand how it wants you to do things. In particular, using the sensors manager view for maneuvering will give you lots of UI cues to help with depth perception, particularly stuff like showing where terrain intersects with the cursor's current elevation while giving movement commands (allowing you to use terrain as a constant reference point) or projecting contacts onto a uniform sphere around the selected ship when giving heading commands (to easily face what you want to face rather than having to eyeball the angle at a distance without true depth perception). The relatively slow and deliberate pace of the game helps a great deal as well. The official discord is also very helpful in answering new player questions. I usually avoid public discord servers, as a rule, but I found this one very informative - especially regarding ship design and component function. Folks are also typically quite chill in games with new players. I think the community knows that being jerks to prospective new blood would be a one-way ticket to having no one to play with, and it's not like Nebulous is some flavor-of-the-month FPS game where it'd be trivial to find another game in the same genre if the current one dies. There's really nothing else like Nebulous out there, and there hasn't been for decades. Phrosphor posted:When the faction warfare system comes in I fully intend to deeply commit. I don't know whether I am eager for or terrified of conquest mode. The prospect pushes all the same buttons, for good and for ill, as Dominions.
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Jun 6, 2023 17:29
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In dominions you can't blue on green a misidentified legitimate freighter and enter a death spiral of everyone hating you for good reason, which I hope will be possible here. I also want to fail an inspection because three rocket technicals popped out of the bulk hauler's bays. SIGSEGV fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Jun 6, 2023 |
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Jun 6, 2023 17:35
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SIGSEGV posted:In dominions you can blue on green a misidentified legitimate freighter and enter a death spiral of everyone hating you for good reason, which I hope will be possible here. That's literally in the design document the developer posted. No more recon-by-cruise-missile, unless you want to lose the war and get prosecuted for war crimes. e: For the curious, here's a link to the document. It's also linked from a stickied post by the dev on the game's steam forum. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Jun 6, 2023 |
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Jun 6, 2023 17:36
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That is neat, I can't wait for new ways to fear loving up.
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Jun 6, 2023 17:52
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That was a great post about how to use a battleship. Let me add an effort-post about the two most significant and confusing mechanics in the game: Radar and armor. If you're playing Nebulous, you're probably familiar with the survivability onion.  The most reliable way to not be seen is to stay at very long range or behind a rock. This is safe, but it also limits your offensive potential, and staying safe doesn't win battles. Radar mechanics are complex, but in practice the two things which matter are max range and the precision of your estimation of where the enemy is. You can see these numbers in the fleet builder in the sensors tab, and in battle with the track quality marker by the enemy icon, which ranges from TQ1 (somewhere that aways) to TQ15 (target locked). Some of this is pretty self explanatory, a ship with a Bridgemaster (8.5 km) going up against a ship with a Spyglass (12 km) can be fired on without being seen and can be maneuvered around, but 250mm and smaller guns have ranges of 8000m, so once the engagement has started it's hard to notice the difference. My rule of thumb is that at TQ10 and above you can expect decent results from gunfire. This corresponds to a positional error of about 20m, which you can get on ANS at long range by stacking 4 track correlators on a Spyglass or on OSP by putting two track correlators on a Bloodhound. Long range radar is really important because jamming only has a 10 km effective range, so you can position your radar ships out of range of the jamming cone and still get decent tracks. The only other options for dealing with jamming are burn through, which provides a single low-value track and OSP can't really use, lots of home-on-jam missiles, getting a lock somehow, getting an off-angle track from outside the jamming cone, or closing the range. The last two are most effective, but can also draw you into a tactically disastrous position. Having radar ships behind your fleet makes things nice and simple. Radar range is also effected by the radar signature of your ships, but what I've found is that stealth is really hard to achieve. Big ships which mount long range weapons have big radar returns. Small ships have to get close enough that prowler drives and turning off radar doesn't help much. Angling matters a fair bit, a light cruiser from the side reflects like a barn door and has much smaller returns head on, but you should be bow tanking already. So now you've seen, acquired, and are hitting the target, but are you penetrating and killing? Armor and hull damage has bunch of math as well, but the thing to note is that even small AP rounds can theoretically penetrate every ship in the game short of the battleship. I've put together a handy chart of ammo types vs ship armor values, which I printed out and taped up next to my monitor. Penetration is effected by impact angle, up to 2.5x the listed value, so bigger guns are still better, but most ships have a flattish area. The other key damage mechanic is hull density. A shell will keep going until it's stopped by a combination of armor and internal density. AP does damage to everything in its path, and HE explodes at a random point and does damage in a sphere. This means that it is effectively impossible to totally kill a Solomon from the front, since the length of the ship means that enough of a CIC + reactor + engine hangs on even after everything is scrape. And big rounds can overpenetrate small ships, doing greatly reduced damage. Understanding the radar and armor mechanics means you can cut the survivability onion to make your opponents cry while staying alive yourself.
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Jun 9, 2023 19:41
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Nice post! I do think there's a bit more to talk about regarding stealth though, specifically when playing ANS. You're never ever going to hide a battleship from radar, but corvettes and frigates are small enough and OSP radar is primitive enough that stealth is a legit factor. Missiles in particular pair well with stealth-based tactics: double-prowler cruise-missile-carrying "submarine" frigates are a venerable classic, but more recently and more shockingly I've seen people playing stealthy insta-stage S3H corvettes. It's an extremely rude thing to run into, since you detect them about the time they're hot-launching an ~800 m/s decoy-accompanied HEKP warhead at you. Even simple whiplash gun corvettes, my personal favorite maneuver element, rely heavily on stealth via emissions control to avoid fights with OSP heavies. OSP ships are much less capable of radar stealth. Shuttles are small and sneaky, but everything else is relatively big and blocky with a hefty RCS to match. The OSP does have solid radar jamming, even on their home-grown civilian hulls, but ANS ships have good burnthrough radar and robust communications nets with which to share tracks. There's a lot of counterplay. Worse yet, jamming can't hide your general position - allowing the enemy to maneuver accordingly. The good old-fashioned Hide Behind a Big Rock strategy remains OSP's best option for denying information.
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Jun 10, 2023 05:57
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ELINT is another topic that I find myself explaining a lot. For those without the background, the system at it's most basic explanation is a passive radar detection tool. Essentially if a source is emitting radar in the battlespace, an ELINT module can detect the direction it is emitting from and give a guess at the approximate strength of the signal. If you have two ELINT detectors at a decent distance from each other (importantly these need to be mounted on two separate ships), you can cross reference the origin vector and signal strength (game does this automatically), and you will get a rough estimate of the location of the ship(s) emitting radar. if you have three ELINT detectors spread out (again on 3 separate ships), preferably in a triangle from the source, you can build a strong idea of where the radar emitting ship is. Strong enough to fire on with low accuracy. Not much use for cannons or beams but great for striking with radar-seeking missiles or torpedo's. Because of the way this works, you can detect and roughly pinpoint enemy radar emitting ships before they can detect you on radar themselves. Corvettes have a nice nose slot for an ELINT module that gives a good forward facing field of detection. Most players, especially those new to the game. Will have their radars on at all times. You can turn the radars off on your ELINT ships, and they can transmit the ELINT data back to your feel via radio comms. If you ever see a corvette or a shuttle far out on the edge of the battlespace you can usually guarantee someone is running ELINT and they have a lot more information on their enemy than you realize. 
Phrosphor fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 00:53
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ELINT track has a flaw in that it only provide positional data, not vector nor speed. So firing on ELINT track is extra difficult especially at long range. You pretty much have to eye ball it. Though the ARAD seeker does have pretty big cone and range. Usually I toss on a steerable active radar as backup in case the enemy is paying attention. I experimented with a fleet focused on eliminating OSP long range radar and it was quite satisfying seeing the ELINT track fly off to the top of the map and you fire off 4 S3H at the track and hit home. pedro0930 fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 01:22
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So I do love the look of this game, but I'm not big on PvP strategy games. Are they planning on adding a single player mode into this? Like a campaign or anything?
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Jun 13, 2023 18:42
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TescoBag posted:So I do love the look of this game, but I'm not big on PvP strategy games. Yes, there's a single player campaign on the roadmap for the future. (Probably not for a bit, though)
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Jun 13, 2023 18:56
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TescoBag posted:So I do love the look of this game, but I'm not big on PvP strategy games. Before single player they will be doing the community warfare gameplay if I remember the roadmap, so it is quite awhile away.
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Jun 14, 2023 00:15
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The next Devlog dropped with a big detailed look at the strategic level of the next multiplayer update which simulates war across entire solar systems with multiple players per team controlling fleets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPauekEe2CE I expect GoonFleet to be a work of art.
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Jun 21, 2023 00:04
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I might have to actually learn to be not terrible at this after all.
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Jun 21, 2023 07:46
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Worth noting that people are figuring out plasma bulker builds now. They gently caress up most anything, but ANS heavies suffer particularly badly because they're too fat and expensive to hide effectively under jamming. Can't really recommend gun BBs right now.
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Jun 23, 2023 23:26
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Current new 'hot' meta is Revolver Liners You cover every side of a liner with guns and micro it so it is always rotating as it reloads so it never stops firing. There are a few micro masters out there capable of keeping up a near endless stream of fire from these ships. It's pretty scary.
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Aug 10, 2023 02:58
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Hats off to those folks. Like everybody else thats a ship I built and utterly failed to pilot well.
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Aug 10, 2023 04:22
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I play games like this specifically to avoid that exact sort of micro hell.
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Aug 11, 2023 03:46
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Putting the unguided short range rockets on the back of the line ship is good micro, constantly inputting rotation seems like a giant pain. Maybe putting in a standing order to constantly rotate would make it less unpleasant. (I know I would have killed for that in SOTS, with the lovely PD angles a lot of species get it would have been helpful for PD DDs and CLs.) (Also BB EWAR sections that despite being designed for that sort of thing with the integrated wild weasel had lovely angles as well.)
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Aug 11, 2023 13:42
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The secret is you only really need to get it to start spinning once, after that you just cycle firing groups. The bigger secret is that 2 or 3 lineships with 5 250s each is just plain better, the revolver is purely for comedy.
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Aug 11, 2023 16:31
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Yeah...that seems very prone to error, wasting micro bandwidth, and is complete antithesis of OSP doctrine.
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Aug 11, 2023 16:50
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Patch Notes are up. Capital buffs, torp rework, penaid warheads, mixed missile salvos, and cooperative multi-ship AMM allocation. It's a big feature list with substantial knock-on effects to the meta.
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Aug 21, 2023 23:01
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Mixed Missile Salvos are a big deal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHp74ZyFaWw Here is a little overview of it from JDee. Essentially you can plan out very interesting attacks involving specially made decoys and ship killers.
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Aug 23, 2023 00:24
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