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 Toyota Sienna: Offroad Minivan It's a 2000 Toyota Sienna CE. Base model, 1st gen, FWD. Why an old Sienna? Reliable Full size spare Seats come out completely 7.5 ft cargo space! It was free It’s a huge box on wheels, and it’s amazing to sleep in. 90 inches of cargo space means you aren’t cramped at all. Even if you’re stuck inside all day during a thunderstorm, it’s not terrible. This is why I don’t drive a 4runner or pickup truck. Those vehicles would be much more capable offroad, but every night I’d be cramped in the back wishing I was in the minivan. (I'm not a fan of tents.) As to reliability, in 21 years it has never needed a tow. Stuff has broken, but it has always driven to the mechanic under its own power. It's a good car. Project Goals The goal is camping and hunting and exploring National Forests and BLM land. The vehicle is a means to that end, and I expect to destroy it in less than 5 years. That said, I very much want it to die close to home, not out in the wilderness 50 miles from the nearest paved road. So most of my modifications will be focused on survivability, not true offroad capability. Never forget that it is a fwd minivan, and it will never actually be "good" at offroading. Project Roadmap Emergency comms and recovery gear Good offroad tires Skid plate Suspension overhaul <-- you are here 3/2021 Front recovery point Intake snorkle Rear suspension airbags? ???      Directory of Projects - Skid Plates - 3D printed strut boot spacers - Torque vectoring brakes: idea, 3D printed bracket, test fit, plumbing, done. - Front bumper: OEM bumper failure, community input, built by Califabrication in Sacramento. - Power supply filter for TPMS receiver. - Mojave Trip and damage assessment. - Outfitting a metal shop. - Front bumper upgrade: Planning, welding, done. - Spare tire carrier repair. - Treed a black bear. - Skid Plate v2: Reinforced - Bear Radar ryanrs fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Oct 17, 2022 |
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Mar 7, 2021 05:37
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Emergency Communications & Vehicle Recovery I only every offroad alone, which many people say you shouldn't do. But I don't drive out to the wilderness because I want to be around other people. That said, I do try to avoid death. Here's how! Help, I'm gonna die! Every time I post about driving around the desert in my minivan, someone brings up The Death Valley Germans. They were a family of German tourists who rented a minivan and took it offroad in Death Valley. They died and their bodies were eaten by wild animals. To avoid death, I carry a PLB satellite beacon. All you have to do is push the button, and search and rescue people will show up in a few hours or maybe the next day. A strictly one-way SOS device costs about $300 and has no subscription fee. Add a first aid kit and some water, and congrats, you probably won't die in the desert. Or if you do, it'll be because you died pretty quickly, not slowly over several days from dehydration. Help, I'm not dying, but can't get home. I carry a 50W 2m+70cm ham radio and a decent antenna. I've only needed to use it once, to report some other guy I thought might be in trouble. It works great if you know how to use your radio and have a handy list of local repeaters. I did, and I was able to summon the Kern County Sheriff from the middle of the Kiavah Wilderness. Basically you tune around the local repeaters until you find someone, then ask them to call the sheriff for you. Or if you don't know how your radio works, you tune to an active repeater but nobody can hear you because you didn't set the right frequency shift and PL tone. If you just buy a radio and throw it in your emergency kit without using it, you're pretty much guaranteed to be hosed in a real emergency. Self-help: Goddamn it, stuck again. This is where the real money and planning went. I get the minivan stuck on most trips. Usually I have a pretty good idea it's going to happen when going in, but sometimes it comes as a surprise. My number one recovery tool is my Wyeth-Scott More Power Puller. Unlike a bumper-mounted electric winch, this baby can pull the van in any direction, backwards, sideways, whatever is most helpful in getting unstuck. It's $400 and 26 lbs of iron, steel, and UHMW synthetic rope. Unlike the $50-100 cable pullers on Amazon, this one won't break when you really need it. I also carry about 50 lbs of shackles, steel carabiners, rings, pulleys, straps, and another 300 ft of 5/16" amsteel blue. Winching the van out of a ditch by hand is not super easy. You sit on the ground and crank the lever with a full body rowing motion. Each stroke moves the van less than an inch. Usually you only need to move the van a foot or two. But using the winch is never not a pain in the rear end. It does work, though. Carry a shovel. Hopefully not a bullshit little folding "tactical" shovel, but a real, full-size shovel that you might use if you need to do a lot of digging. I also carry a sledgehammer, pickaxe, axe, chainsaw, and crowbar. When you're traveling in a minivan, you might as well bring a lot of crap with you. I also carry some knock-off maxtrax traction boards. I've only used them once, but they helped get me out of some sand. I have a 100W solar panel that can charge the van battery. And I can jumpstart the van off the chainsaw battery in an emergency. For me, the big unknown is getting stuck somewhere without a convenient tree or rock to anchor to. 300 ft of rope usually gives me a lot of options. I carry some circus tent stakes, too, which could work in sand or soft dirt. I'm not super eager to test them, though.    
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Mar 7, 2021 07:06
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Good Offroad Tires The first Sienna upgrade, and probably the most useful, was a set of BFG KO2 LT215/75R15 tires on the OEM steelies. The tires definitely make a big difference compared to normal minivan street tires. They’re not going to turn the Sienna into a 4x4, but I haven’t ever regretted having the KO2. They are louder on pavement, but only nominally so against the background noise of a 20 year old minivan. There are some minor drawbacks. They rub a little at full steering lock. And I bet I can’t use snow chains anymore (though I haven’t tested it). Air down to 15 psi and rutted washboard roads become a lot nicer. But don't forget you're still driving a FWD minivan. 
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Mar 7, 2021 07:17
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kastein posted:I wonder if anyone makes a good limited slip or lunchbox locker for your differential? No! Stop trying to make the Sienna good offroad. It's already "good enough" and it will never be great. I think if you want lockers, you should start with a Sequoia. That's probably my upgrade plan when I finally kill the Sienna.
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Mar 7, 2021 08:37
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Skid Plate The Sienna oil pan is pretty well protected from the factory. It's nestled inside the beefy front subframe which will take most of the hits. And even if you do hit it, it's a steel pan, so it generally just gets dented, not broken. As you can see, my front subframe is well acquainted with the terrain.  Learning from other people's mistakes   I found this dead 2019 Civic on the trail to McIver's Cabin in the Scodie Mountains (southern Sierras). There were sneaker prints heading back towards the highway, which is 15 miles away. In the Mojave desert, in August. According to the Kern County Sheriff, the guy got a ride and made it out OK, unlike his new lease!  I had been thinking about getting a skid plate for the Sienna for a while. But this scene is what convinced me to actually do it. Minivan Armor I called around to many 4x4 fabrication shops, but all were booked for many months, and some were not so interested in working on a Sienna. Apparently the pandemic summer was great for business of you made offroaders. Califabrication in Sacramento was down with the idea of an offroad Sienna, so I booked an appointment. The problem is they're a couple hours from me, so dropping off the minivan for a couple days would be a huge hassle. So they offered to do the job while-you-wait. They had never worked on a Sienna before, so the plan was to do the design, fabrication, and installation in one marathon day. I arrived at the shop at 8 AM bearing donuts. It was done by 6:30. Cost $1600.             
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Mar 7, 2021 09:42
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FWD with an open diff, so really it's 1WD. Update 9/2021: It's still 1WD, but now I can pick which wheel. ryanrs fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Mar 7, 2021 09:58
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The real issue with the plate mounting is the 1/2" rivnuts securing it to the frame. The plate is 3/16" steel with somewhat oversized mounting holes. The subframe is full of weird curves and poo poo. So when the van flexes or bashes the plate, the rivnuts get chewed up. One has broken and there a couple more that aren't great. I think I'm going to go back to Califab for some fixes. I want better mounting points for the plates, either better rivnuts, or a weld or something. Or maybe run a giant 4" coupling nut straight through the subframe member and weld it on both sides? I also need a better front recovery point for my winch. Right now I'm using the factory tie downs, but they are thin sheet metal and I've already smashed them flat a couple times and bent them back. They are not long for this world. I don't think I need two front recovery points. Just one big one in the middle should be fine.  As for the cat, the skid plate doesn't trap much crap. There isn't actually a path to get there from the front, since it's buttoned up tight at the bumper. Stuff would have to come in from the sides or something. In practice, the most I've found back there is a few pieces of gravel. The fire danger is a good point, though. I do check it every now and then.
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Mar 7, 2021 11:03
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None of my gear is rated for a kinetic recovery, so I'm only thinking of my hand winch. The recovery point(s) would be welded to the front subframe ("engine cradle" in toyota terms). That also carries the front wheels and engine, so it should be pretty sturdy. But I have zero knowledge of 4x4 fabrication (or minivan fabrication, for that matter) so I'm open to ideas and suggestions before I talk to Califab about the work. And speaking of fire safety, here's me camping last September near Ruth, CA. Sep 7 at 6 PM.    9 AM the next morning.    The campsite burned later that day.
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Mar 7, 2021 11:31
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Safety Dance posted:Do you have a ham radio operator's license? Yes, for the last 30 years. I don't use it much, though. InitialDave posted:Do you have a Hi-Lift? And somewhere either end reinforced enough to jack from? I don't think a hi-lift will work with my minivan. It seems like you'd at least need heavy steel bumpers or something to use one. The Sienna is wrapped in plastic bullshit all the way around. I've been thinking of getting one of those balloon offroad jacks. I haven't done it yet because I'm having a hard time thinking of a situation where they'd be useful. The last time I got a flat offroad, I didn't even notice until I got back to pavement. I don't carry enough spare parts and tools to do major repairs, like replacing a CV axle or steering linkage. Elmnt80 posted:You might consider a literal anchor as a thing to attach your winch to in sandy conditions. I've heard of people burying their spare tire in the sand as an anchor. KozmoNaut posted:Is a mild suspension lift something that's in the cards (or even reasonably possible on a Sienna?), or is that something you're planning to go along with the bags in the rear? I put in 2nd gen Sienna front springs, which gave me 2 inches extra height in the front. The 2nd gen springs have a higher spring rate since that model is heavier. The 2nd gen rear springs won't fit, though. I need to expand my search, as there's probably something out there from a totally different car that will work in the rear. The bags I'm looking at aren't full suspension airbags. They are balloons that fit inside the OEM rear springs.. The idea was they'd add an inch or two when I'm carrying a lot of firewood or other heavy things. I'm kind of stuck on the hose routing, though. I don't think there is clearance at the top spring mount to run the tube, and if I install the bags upside-down, the tubing will get shredded when I go offroad. The Sienna OEM ground clearance is at the level where an inch or two makes a big difference, so I'll take it if it's cheap. But I don't think it's worth spending $$$ to take it further. The front springs were "for free" since I was already changing the struts.
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Mar 7, 2021 19:43
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I know a lot of Sienna owners use them when towing, because the Sienna has a notoriously soft rear suspension. I have all the parts, but I've put them on the shelf until I finish my current huge suspension + engine mounts replacement project. Yeah, it would make sense to do the airbags at the same time as the rest of the suspension, but I ran into some hassles and didn't want to delay the whole project. The van has been on jack stands for over 2 weeks. It's important to get it going again quickly, lest it become one of those car projects that never actually drives anywhere. It's getting an alignment tomorrow, then hopefully my strut boot spacers arrive sometime next week. Gonna try to go on a trip next weekend.
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Mar 7, 2021 21:47
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Safety Dance posted:I don't think I've seen you mention it, but do you carry Maxtrax or similar recovery boards? I was just watching a video where a guy buried some as a winch anchor. Wow, that looks way better than burying your spare! Thank you for the great idea. I carry a pair of these $95 maxtrax ripoffs. For those unfamiliar with the name brand maxtrax in that video, those 4 plastic boards he had retail for $600. Noooope. My off-brand traction boards aren't as strong as the maxtrax, but they seem to work ok. I've heard they can get brittle in freezing weather. I can also throw some of my long-handled tools in the hole to reinforce the boards (pickaxe, sledgehammer, pipe, etc).
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Mar 7, 2021 22:16
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Safety Dance posted:The same guy did a video comparing his maxtrax to ~$100 knockoffs, and came to the conclusion that the maxtrax were a little better, but the knockoffs weren't bad at all. They cracked a little when he used them as a jacking point and that's about it. Yes, that might have been the video that convinced me to buy the knockoffs. For the cost of 4 maxtrax boards, I could buy a dozen knockoffs, lay them across the ground, keep moving the rear boards to the front, and drive across the desert without ever touching the sand.
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Mar 7, 2021 22:53
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Raluek posted:Moog has a pretty handy page for this kind of thing: https://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/universal_coil_springs.asp That is excellent, thank you! I don't know how I missed that when finding my front springs (I used moog because they published specs). I wish they didn't half-rear end the parametric search, though. I need to be able to enter numeric ranges! e: ugh, their parametric search is using substring matching for the numeric values. 
ryanrs fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Mar 7, 2021 |
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Mar 7, 2021 23:11
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How do I weigh my minivan? Just front/rear weights would be ok, but all four corners would be cool, too. Please tell me I need to take it to a high-end race shop. That'd be hilarious.
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Mar 8, 2021 00:08
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Dumped the moog data into google spreadsheets. I deleted a ton of rows, leaving these 7 that seem workable and give 1.3-2.5 inches rear lift (assuming my rear wheels weigh 950 lbs). But I still like the idea of airing up/down the airbag helper springs so the Sienna isn't permanently stuck in harsh ride mode. Hmmm, I will need to think on this.
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Mar 8, 2021 00:31
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Problem is the upper spring mount is flush against one of the frame rails. I need to pull apart some of the interior to see if I can just drill straight up and end up somewhere sane. I wasn't able to route the tube through the frame rails because I think there are some bulkheads or other reinforcement blocking the path. So one of the next projects is to drop the rear springs again and see what I can make work.
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Mar 8, 2021 01:40
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I have not been to a junkyard before! Does anyone have recommendations for one I should visit in the South Bay / SF Bay Area?
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Mar 8, 2021 02:26
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Wow, I am learning so much from this thread! I should have posted it before I started the project, not when I'm almost done.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:55
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Alignment Installed camber bolts, got alignment. Van drives good now. More Tires Well my KO2 with the sidewall puncture and half-assed temp plug has started to leak. This is a good excuse to replace it, which I was planning on doing, but hadn't gotten to yet. Gonna trash the rear punctured tire, demote its neighbor to the spare, swap the fronts to the back, and put the 2 new tires up front. ATF Leak Something is dripping onto my exhaust. When I'm stopped at a light, there will be periodic puffs of smoke from under the hood. Guessing it's the passenger side diff seal leaking ATF, since I just swapped that CV axle. Oh well, poo poo should come apart easier this time since everything is slathered in copper anti-seize. I want to do a trip first, though. I'll keep an eye on the ATF level. I don't think this leak is bad enough to cause a fire, probably. I think it's dripping on the exhaust between the header/precat and the main cat.
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Mar 9, 2021 00:15
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Safety Dance posted:Automotive Insanity > Offroad Minivan: Burnt Sienna Mods, please change thread title.
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Mar 9, 2021 00:58
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The Sienna doesn't need stickers to tell you it goes offroad.
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Mar 9, 2021 02:21
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Safety Dance posted:with the exception of a big dent where I tried to push a shopping cart without getting out of the car once. Zoom out, enhance:
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Mar 9, 2021 02:52
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Atticus_1354 posted:You're so close to convincing me I don't need a new truck and camper and should get a minivan instead. UNDER FOUR THOUSAND. Both the price and the curb weight.
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Mar 9, 2021 03:22
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Driving along a mountain of asbestos in the largest serpentine formation in the world.
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Mar 9, 2021 07:36
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50 square miles of asbestos and yet there were still fire restrictions 
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Mar 9, 2021 10:42
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Coydog posted:FYI The Sienna takes the same TRD 3.5 inch lift that the trucks do. Wait, what? The Sienna is built on the Camry platform. I seriously doubt it has any suspension parts in common with a Tacoma or Tundra. And for all you tire lettering obsessives, KO2s are not available with white letters in 215/75R15.
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Mar 9, 2021 19:00
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:They let you anywhere near an asbestos mine?!?!? Whoah, I'd have turned around and got the gently caress outta there. kastein posted:Man I wouldn't go near that poo poo. I don't even want the dust on my car, I gotta work on that thing sometimes. New Idria asbestos seems to have much lower toxicity than other forms of asbestos. The fibers are much more soluble so they do not persist in the lungs. For further reading, start here: New Idria Serpentinite: A Land Management Dilemma. The high-grade asbestos deposits are indeed fenced off. 
ryanrs fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Mar 9, 2021 |
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Mar 9, 2021 19:20
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glyph posted:Also, thanks for the link about the lost germans in death valley (in the OP). I didn't know I wanted to spend my morning reading that, but here we are. Here, have some more! China Lake Mountain Rescue Group newsletters with rescue writeups. CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:No, it's still chrysotile asbestos. There really isnt a safe level of asbestos exposure so I wouldnt be going anywhere near it. The fact you can still get that close to the main open cut mine would have done my brain in but for the industrys rear end in a top hat attempts to keep itself a thing and not recognise the dangers in the USA. Yeah, I didn't realize it was an actual asbestos mine until after the fact. I doubt I'll be going back to the area. I was scouting for hunting spots, but the serpentine habitat doesn't have much game. I saw some quail, but that was it.
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Mar 9, 2021 23:45
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quote:Death Valley Germans Before I go do stupid stuff in an unfamiliar area, I try to read reports from local search and rescue groups. It's morbid, but very instructive to read about how other people died. I actually do this. For example, in the Southern/Eastern Sierras, dangerous activities are: playing in the Kern River, falling down steep rocks esp in ice/snow, suicide, getting lost hiking in the desert. This is why I immediately contacted the Kern County Sheriff over ham radio when I found that abandoned Civic. The car was unlocked, so I went through his stuff: new car very clean, lives in LA, recent immigrant, no hiking/camping/hunting gear whatsoever, no food/water, brand new metal detector in the trunk. Empty White Claw and an e-cig on the passenger seat. Well, drat! That's just about every red flag I could think of, so I contacted the sheriff and set up camp nearby in case I needed to give additional info from the scene to the search & rescue people (location was a couple hours from any town, so not quick to get to). As it happened, the guy was safe. But I was glad I had read previous rescue reports so I knew not to gently caress around and report it immediately. So many deaths happen because people don't recognize when they're in a life-threatening situation. This was good practice.
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Mar 12, 2021 03:47
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Humphreys posted:So what was he up to? He thought he'd go metal detecting at a historical mining site (not allowed in national forests, btw). But that was only the start to his adventure. The sheriff's office got the first call about an abandoned vehicle a week before I found it, on a different part of the trail. He had high-centered, then got a ride out from someone else. We think he returned later with a truck and tried to tow his car out. It worked right up until he towed his cast aluminum oil pan over that big rock. Then I guess he unhooked and left it again. Hopefully he had better luck on the third try. But we're pretty sure he didn't die out in the Mojave.
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Mar 12, 2021 09:52
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After a year of doing literally nothing / fake-WFH, my boss asked me to do a bunch of actual work (the jerk!). So I've been doing that. In the meantime, the van has been parked. Minivan status: - there is an oil or atf drip onto the exhaust, probably from loving up the seal when inserting the CV axle into the transmission. - everything else works or is minor enough that I don't remember Gonna take off the passenger front wheel and knuckle and see if I can locate exactly what is leaking.
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Jun 7, 2021 01:07
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Yep, it's the seal around the axle I replaced.  Not sure if I have to remove those four bolts, or not. Should be obvious when I have the new seal in hand, I guess.
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Jun 7, 2021 02:45
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Am I correct that this pink stuff is gasket, and I really don't want to take out those bolts? I feel like I will regret pulling that part. e: service manual confirms you just pry out the old seal and hammer in a new one, using special expensive toyota tools. ryanrs fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Jun 7, 2021 |
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Jun 7, 2021 02:51
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While I'm waiting on that oil seal, I need to fix my front strut boot problem. I have new OEM rubber boots to protect the strut, but they don't fit my KYB replacement strut. In these pics, it looks like the boot is a little too short, but I think that's because the strut is at full extension. The bigger issue is that the boot ID is 12mm larger diameter than the strut OD. Even if you use a hose clamp, there is so much extra rubber it bunches up and really doesn't work. So I made a spacer! It's 3D printed with Markforged Onyx (nylon with chopped carbon fiber). This is what I've been speccing when I want a functional part that is legit strong and tough.      and yes, this was all so I didn't have to disassemble the struts to put on the correct KYB boot.
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Jun 7, 2021 23:06
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I know enough about myself not to make big capital investments like that, ha ha. The downside is I have to pay $$$ to get them printed. Here's how the pricing broke down for these parts: Each strut needs 2 half-circle spacers, so I needed 4 total. Each spacer: 75 x 50 x 37 mm 40.7 cm^3 volume $26/ea in qty=4 That's with 80% infill, which to be fair, I cranked up until I hit the magic $100 minimum order. If I were ordering 100 parts, costs would be: $15/ea for 80% infill $13/ea for 30% infill For comparison, if I wanted 4 parts in anodized 7075 aluminum, they would have been about $100/ea. (But I think Onyx is a better material than aluminum for this part, even if the price was the same.)
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Jun 8, 2021 00:58
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I ripped out the old seal and tapped in the new one, which went in slightly crooked and might leak, fml. If I have to redo it, it's $15 and a couple hours of wrenching. If it doesn't leak, then I'll get an alignment (again, I keep having to undo the strut). Then a longer test drive, reinstall the skid plates, and possibly go on a trip this weekend!
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Jun 9, 2021 08:19
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It does not leak!
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Jun 9, 2021 23:20
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No, you should definitely go to the desert. Research beforehand, bring the inreach, and try not to be too stupid. It's worth it!
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Jun 10, 2021 03:19
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Took it for a long test drive along the spine of the Santa Cruz Mountains from 92 to 152. Starts off as smooth 50+ mph twisties, then steadily degrades as you head south, until it's rutted dirt road as you buzz the rednecks at Ormsby. Then down Hecker Pass into Watsonville, up 1, and up and over 17. It was a good shakedown test, and the van passed! So I guess this means I officially own a lifted offroad minivan, which is amazing. Before and after shots of the lift:  Measuring from the ground to the top of the fender arch, I gained 3" in front and 1.5" in the rear, which will make a big difference offroad, I think. Note that my old springs were sagging, so it's more like +1.5" over stock, not 3". Driving dynamics were notably similar to an unladen truck. Not great, but not punishing, and didn't feel unpredictable or dangerous.
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Jun 11, 2021 07:08
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 14:11 |
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 Top of Hull Mountain, above Lake Pillsbury. The trip to Mendocino National Forest went well. I'm heading out again soon, so here are just a few pics. I'll probably do a larger effortpost later. Some minivan action shots climbing Hull Mtn.      Much of the forest was burned.     Some area burned only superficially with little damage to mature trees.  Other places have changed, but are still recognizable.   3 days was not really long enough to see what's going on in the forest. I'm going to try to go out again this weekend for 5 days.
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Jun 16, 2021 20:11
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