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just got told to "explain in my own words why glenn is bad" lol
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Mar 31, 2021 19:46
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Sharks Eat Bear posted:I'm not a GG stan, but I do find his Posting Energy entertaining in a sort of trashy way. I think his comments on trans issues and racism in the US have been ~problematic~ or alarmingly naive at best... i think the problem with this is that when you study the totality of what he says and does - and not his angriest tweets - it turns out he isn't actually principled in a "classic liberal" (really libertarian) way, because he only believes about things like "free speech" when it applies to angry white men who like to shoot up synagogues, and not women or minorities. i think there are many other people who make the same criticisms of us foreign policy - the only place where you could argue that glenn is useful - without everything else (and selling his statements as transgender people as "problematic" is really short selling it). like, look at his recent focus on the dangers of tech censorship - which really only started when technology companies started censoring people on the right - and its like, no loving poo poo? that's been happening to leftists for literally decades (if not centuries). if your introduction to the idea of "its bad when large oligopolies control communication channels and can effectively censor groups with ideas they don't like" is from glenn, then i would encourage you to read like... any us history. like, glenn is not the ACLU who are defending everyone because free speech is a sacred principle that should be defended regardless of how objectionable content is - he only speaks up about censorship when it targets right wing ideologies. and if you study everything else he does, you start to see a pattern: he has an affinity for defending right wing white men and attacking minority groups. you could argue that's just a crazy coincidence, but i think its reflective that the core of his belief isn't "classic liberalism" its "right wing populism". like, if he legitimately is outraged by the idea of a corporate controlled press and his meltdown about his editors at the intercept wasn't just him being a giant manchild, then why the gently caress is he appearing on fox news? rupert murdoch is the ultimate symbol of the dangers of corporate controlled media in stifling viewpoints. why is he shouting out tucker carlson on twitter? he's either disingenuous (and doesn't really care about media censorship as long as he's - or other white men - are not being censored) or he's the worlds most naive moron. Owlspiracy fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 20:00
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Sharks Eat Bear posted:I'm not a GG stan, but I do find his Posting Energy entertaining in a sort of trashy way. I think his comments on trans issues and racism in the US have been ~problematic~ or alarmingly naive at best... I don't think Glenn has enough of an impact anymore that people should be crusading to scrub his words from the internet or anything, i'm just tired of people using him in shitheaded appeals to authority. There may be times when something he has written is good or cogent, but that doesn't mean I need to treat every tweet of his as good or act as though his thoughts on trans rights are worth considering just because he doesn't call for exterminating them all. And honestly the thing that sticks most in my craw with him now is everything to do with the US election. You can understnad that Biden is not an anti-imperialist revolutionairry while also understanding that the people who wanted Trump in power instead are not in any way better. It's people defending that position (the real socialists are the strasserists!), and lending legitimacy to it, that is the biggest problem now, and there's no way to pretend that's not what Glenn is doing.
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Mar 31, 2021 20:01
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hbag posted:just got told to "explain in my own words why glenn is bad" lol please don't liveblog your adventures in other forums here
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Mar 31, 2021 20:04
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Sharks Eat Bear posted:In a better world, we wouldn't need someone as ~problematic~ as GG to be a leading voice of neoliberal criticisms; it would be better if that voice was coming from an actual leftist, rather than from a glorified libertarian shitposter. But unfortunately that's not the world we live in What? There are tons of prominent critics of neoliberalism who are nowhere near as lovely as GG. Plus GG is really a fringe figure at this point anyway, he's not really the vanguard of anything in 2021. For the most part people who aren't part of the extremely online fringe like us have no goddamn idea who he is. Or he's just "that dickhead on Fox" in an ocean of dickheads who go on Fox News.
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Mar 31, 2021 20:21
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The Snowden thing is the crux of GG's popularity, because it was legitimate blow to the US security apparatus. Despite GG being a poo poo head (and apparently Snowden is like a techbro douche of the highest calibre) what they did there was objecitvely a good thing. I think it's hard for people to reconcile that with the idea that the people who did it were not leadership figures for the left.
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Mar 31, 2021 20:46
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Sharks Eat Bear posted:Unlike Carlson or other RWM pundits, he's not just a charlatan that will do & say whatever it takes to own the libs; he's uncompromisingly principled in his belief in Liberal values, namely individual freedoms. If you lend credibility to fascists and their platforms and their agenda in order to maintain your principles in Liberal values, you are a charlatan because those values in incompatible with the people who you're giving credibility to. Glenn is not some bastion of leftist ideals, he's a hack. He lauds and befriends open white supremacists and actual nazis while attacking Liberals and even actual Leftists, that is not principled criticism, its an agenda. He has leftist credibility and he uses it to empower the worst human beings in the world, including people who want him dead for being gay. That's why I say Glen is a nazi. Not for rhetorical flourish, not for a gag. He uses power from whatever source he can get it completely cynically to increase his own power and wealth and to attack people he deems lesser than himself for being outsiders to his ideology. That's fascism.
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Mar 31, 2021 20:52
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If you like the kind of critique that Greenwald offers, particularly of cliquey media culture, but want it without the Greenwald, I’ve found Freddie deBoer an insightful and talented writer fwiw. He’s not without his own mental health issues, which have caused him to do some bad/bizarre stuff in the past. But at least he’s upfront about those, and has apologized and sought treatment. E: also he’s kind of a weird dude, so obligatory I don’t agree with with every etching he’s said, etc. etc. I just think he’s interesting to read and appears to have an actual basis for his views rather than Greenwald’s contrarianism. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 20:53
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sean10mm posted:What? There are tons of prominent critics of neoliberalism who are nowhere near as lovely as GG. Who would you list as prominent critics of neoliberalism in the mainstream US media? I’m not sure GG is more fringe than any other journalist in the US, which is more of a reflection of the low awareness/engagement with journalism among the general public than it is of GG’s fringeness. I wouldn’t call him the vanguard of anything either though.
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Mar 31, 2021 20:59
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Sanguinia posted:If you lend credibility to fascists and their platforms and their agenda in order to maintain your principles in Liberal values, you are a charlatan because those values in incompatible with the people who you're giving credibility to. Glenn is not some bastion of leftist ideals, he's a hack. He lauds and befriends open white supremacists and actual nazis while attacking Liberals and even actual Leftists, that is not principled criticism, its an agenda. He has leftist credibility and he uses it to empower the worst human beings in the world, including people who want him dead for being gay. Also he defending the 1/6 Insurrectionists and made fun of AOC for being frightened during an actual threat to the life of herself and other congresspeople (to the point he basically called her a liar). Dude's a loving Nazi (or Nazi-sympathizer) just by that even if we don't get all the way into the weeds on how he ardently defended an entire Nazi hate group and illegally wiretapped witnesses. Or that time he supported the Oath Keepers. Or that time he agreed with Donald Trump that the election was rigged... etc. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 21:00
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Jaxyon posted:As an aside, "I am a classical liberal at odds with the establishment" is a very common phrase among people who are actually pretty far right. Indeed. One oddity of modern politics is that right-wingers will rarely admit how right-wing/authoritarian/racist their views actually are. (Even the ones often described here as "saying the quiet parts out loud" are just admitting openly to what more mainstream right-wingers privately believe; you get the impression that their own private views are even more extreme.) One form this takes is fascists or near-fascists posing as "classical liberals" or centrists. This is the shtick of basically the entire "Intellectual Dark Web." A cruder form of it is the "neutral citizen journalist" mask used by fascist grifters like Tim Pool.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:04
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Sharks Eat Bear posted:Who would you list as prominent critics of neoliberalism in the mainstream US media? Uh, what? He’s way more fringe than anyone who regularly appears on say, the PBS Newshour or other evening news shows on broadcast tv. Easily. Or the hosts of Morning Edition or All Things Considered.
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Mar 31, 2021 21:10
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Aruan posted:i think the problem with this is that when you study the totality of what he says and does - and not his angriest tweets - it turns out he isn't actually principled in a "classic liberal" (really libertarian) way, because he only believes about things like "free speech" when it applies to angry white men who like to shoot up synagogues, and not women or minorities. i think there are many other people who make the same criticisms of us foreign policy - the only place where you could argue that glenn is useful - without everything else (and selling his statements as transgender people as "problematic" is really short selling it). like, look at his recent focus on the dangers of tech censorship - which really only started when technology companies started censoring people on the right - and its like, no loving poo poo? that's been happening to leftists for literally decades (if not centuries). if your introduction to the idea of "its bad when large oligopolies control communication channels and can effectively censor groups with ideas they don't like" is from glenn, then i would encourage you to read like... any us history. like, glenn is not the ACLU who are defending everyone because free speech is a sacred principle that should be defended regardless of how objectionable content is - he only speaks up about censorship when it targets right wing ideologies. and if you study everything else he does, you start to see a pattern: he has an affinity for defending right wing white men and attacking minority groups. you could argue that's just a crazy coincidence, but i think its reflective that the core of his belief isn't "classic liberalism" its "right wing populism". https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1377247040963551232 https://theintercept.com/2018/12/17/israel-texas-anti-bds-law/ I'm sure there are more examples.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:15
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Quotey posted:https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1377247040963551232 https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1377247746156036103 His objection isn't about her. It's about himself and his nazi buddies.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:23
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Quotey posted:https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1377247040963551232 Are you just going through his twitter and posting the first thign that isn't him being explicitly bigoted Because do you think A) The guy with some really really questionable writings on race and gender and who appears on the biggest white supremacist platform in the country is a big fan of Angela Davis or B) He's using someone that a large part of the left would agree is good to push a cynical self-centered argument trying to fight his own deplatforming Hint: It's not A
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Mar 31, 2021 22:30
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Somfin posted:https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1377247746156036103 lmao at the mush brained free speech take. It is absolutely bizzare that people keep trotting this out, because history demonstrates pretty clearly that being *principled* about free speech or whatever does not at all stop people with power from making GBS threads on it when convenient, which leaves the only coherent position that free speech is and always has been a lie and what actually matters is power and the exercise thereof. The assholes aren't going to stop trying to censor people if you do, so the correct solution is to get your side organized and shut them down before they do it to you. Literally every take that I've ever been exposed to from this guy is just absolutely terrible and I have no idea why anyone likes him.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:38
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Jaxyon posted:Are you just going through his twitter and posting the first thign that isn't him being explicitly bigoted I was responding to quote:i think the problem with this is that when you study the totality of what he says and does - and not his angriest tweets - it turns out he isn't actually principled in a "classic liberal" (really libertarian) way, because he only believes about things like "free speech" when it applies to angry white men who like to shoot up synagogues, and not women or minorities. Somfin posted:His objection isn't about her. It's about himself and his nazi buddies. How is it even possible to respond to this? I think that you're protecting your nazi buddies from Glenn Greenwald!
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Mar 31, 2021 22:39
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Jaxyon posted:Are you just going through his twitter and posting the first thign that isn't him being explicitly bigoted Since when was Glenn at risk of being 'deplatformed' by his woke critics? I highly doubt he gives a crap. Him and his woke critics feed off each other. He's probably more concerned about Bolsanaro trying to jail him (or his supporters killing him).
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Mar 31, 2021 22:44
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Mister Fister posted:Since when was Glenn at risk of being 'deplatformed' by his woke critics? I highly doubt he gives a crap. Him and his woke critics feed off each other. He's probably more concerned about Bolsanaro trying to jail him (or his supporters killing him). You might want to tell Glenn, who was extremely upset about getting booted from the Intercept, and is constantly posting about his critics Or the posters in this thread who say he has to appear on white supremacist TV shows because he can't get on TV anywhere else But LOL at trying to secondhand "actually I'm not mad at all, and actually laughing" on behalf of a guy as lovely as GG
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Mar 31, 2021 22:51
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Quotey posted:How is it even possible to respond to this? I think that you're protecting your nazi buddies from Glenn Greenwald! It's really on you to make sure that whatever lovely little post you quote from his twitter isn't immediately followed up by GG being a self-serving JAQ moron Also if I have any nazi buddies please let me know directly
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Mar 31, 2021 22:53
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Jaxyon posted:You might want to tell Glenn, who was extremely upset about getting booted from the Intercept, and is constantly posting about his critics Glenn left the intercept not because of some woke brigade trying to get him fired, he left because of a big editorial dispute over an article he wanted to publish. Never in a million years would i consider that being 'deplatformed'. Nobody has actually deplatformed him. And he's not at risk of being deplatformed.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:55
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Quotey posted:I was responding to its fair - when i made the post i almost went backed and edited to say 'almost always' - but my main point, that glenn is most concerned about protecting the rights of people like him - white men - stands. but yes, as people posted, he's not talking about this incident, he's talking about this incident as part of a larger narrative about the PERILS OF CANCEL CULTURE.
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Mar 31, 2021 22:55
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Mister Fister posted:Glenn left the intercept not because of some woke brigade trying to get him fired, he left because of a big editorial dispute over an article he wanted to publish. Never in a million years would i consider that being 'deplatformed'. Is the editorial staff of the Intercept the quote:GLENN GREENWALD’S DECISION to resign from The Intercept stems from a fundamental disagreement over the role of editors in the production of journalism and the nature of censorship. Glenn demands the absolute right to determine what he will publish. He believes that anyone who disagrees with him is corrupt, and anyone who presumes to edit his words is a censor. Thus, the preposterous charge that The Intercept’s editors and reporters, with the lone, noble exception of Glenn Greenwald, have betrayed our mission to engage in fearless investigative journalism because we have been seduced by the lure of a Joe Biden presidency. A brief glance at the stories The Intercept has published on Biden will suffice to refute those claims. GG cannot fail he can only be failed
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Mar 31, 2021 23:00
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Jaxyon posted:Is the editorial staff of the Intercept the But remember it's important to give voice to people who disagree with you, as long as the people disagreeing with you agree with Glenn Greenwald!
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Mar 31, 2021 23:03
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Somfin posted:But remember it's important to give voice to people who disagree with you, as long as the people disagreeing with you agree with Glenn Greenwald! free speech applies to everyone, even people you disagree with* * female journalists excluded
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Mar 31, 2021 23:05
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Glenn Greenwald is buddies with loving Tucker Carlson, which means he is by definition a piece of poo poo
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Mar 31, 2021 23:06
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Jaxyon posted:Is the editorial staff of the Intercept the That's exactly what i said: it was an editorial dispute. I wouldn't call that a deplatforming at all. That's was an editorial dispute between him and his boss. He wanted to write a story, they wouldn't publish it, then he quit. quote:Deplatforming, also known as no-platforming, has been variously defined as an "attempt to boycott a group or individual through removing the platforms (such as speaking venues or websites) used to share information or ideas"[1] or "the action or practice of preventing someone holding views regarded as unacceptable or offensive from contributing to a forum or debate, especially by blocking them on a particular website." ^--- this is completely different than what happened here.
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Mar 31, 2021 23:08
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^^^^^ It's neat how you're very specific on the defiition of "deplatforming" but not "censorship" I wonder why the specific parsing of my words and not Glenns Piell posted:Glenn Greenwald is buddies with loving Tucker Carlson, which means he is by definition a piece of poo poo Actually that's fine because he is not OK with the fascists who directly target him personally, you see Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 23:09
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Jaxyon posted:^^^^^ It's neat how you're very specific on the defiition of "deplatforming" but not "censorship" Uh, because you specifically used the word 'deplatforming' and i was responding to that? Sure, you could say he was 'censored' by his boss. But deplatforming is different, it's usually an outside activist thing to get someone booted of a website or prevented from being able to speak at a university because of some controversial view they held. I would never use 'censor' and 'deplatforming' interchangeably though. I highly doubt glenn gives a gently caress about people trying to get him kicked off twitter or whatever website he's on because it's highly unlikely to happen.
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Mar 31, 2021 23:14
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Mister Fister posted:Uh, because you specifically used the word 'deplatforming' and i was responding to that? OK well I wouldn't interchange "censorship" with "an editorial dispute" but I'm not the person who's a regular on Tucker Carlson's show
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Mar 31, 2021 23:16
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Why the gently caress are you typing ~problematic~ like that?
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Apr 1, 2021 00:26
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Somfin posted:https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1377247746156036103 Lol at trying to connect Angela Davis being deplatformed for criticism of Israel as part of the cancel culture trend. Yes indeed, criticism of Israel never got people silenced before this point.
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Apr 1, 2021 00:33
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Beelzebufo posted:Lol at trying to connect Angela Davis being deplatformed for criticism of Israel as part of the cancel culture trend. Yes indeed, criticism of Israel never got people silenced before this point. It's not like several states have specifically made support of BDS a borderline crime and passed bills of attainder loving up your business if you do it. I wish so-called free-speech advocates gave that 5% of the energy the aim at some guy on Twitter telling them to stop humping bad-faith fascists.
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Apr 1, 2021 00:39
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I'm admittedly not a youtube or podcast guy so I don't know anything about the ppl who made this video, but I thought it was an interesting analysis of Greenwald's allure to the left, despite him very much not being a leftist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ-lxwBTXUw e: lol at seeing the thumbnail after i posted it Sanguinia posted:If you lend credibility to fascists and their platforms and their agenda in order to maintain your principles in Liberal values, you are a charlatan because those values in incompatible with the people who you're giving credibility to. Glenn is not some bastion of leftist ideals, he's a hack. He lauds and befriends open white supremacists and actual nazis while attacking Liberals and even actual Leftists, that is not principled criticism, its an agenda. He has leftist credibility and he uses it to empower the worst human beings in the world, including people who want him dead for being gay. I think this is a pretty broad way of defining nazi, and I have a hard time understanding how this definition wouldn't lead you to calling all liberals nazis/fascists. Which is an argument that some ppl on this site will make, but I suspect that it's not what you're intending. Completely agree that Glenn is not some bastion of leftist ideals, that was literally my point. Solkanar512 posted:Uh, what? He’s way more fringe than anyone who regularly appears on say, the PBS Newshour or other evening news shows on broadcast tv. Easily. Yeah but the person I was responding to was using "no one has any idea who this person is" as the metric for fringiness, and I strongly suspect that ppl on PBS Newshour or NPR aren't going to have much name recognition with the general public either. GG is a Pulitzer winning journalist that has been associated with major mainstream outlets, so I think it's fair to say he's a prominent figure in the media even if that doesn't mean he's a household name. And ultimately it's kind of beside the point I was trying to make -- you're not getting a ton of criticism of neoliberalism on NPR or PBS. And I'm saying this as someone that listened to NPR daily and loved it, in pre-Covid times. If you're looking for neoliberal criticism, you don't have to go too far into the fringes to find GG, and I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think there are a lot of leftists with the same type of prominence, hence GG's popularity*. *in addition to his shitposting energy, which i find simultaneously off-putting and entertaining e: kartikeya posted:Why the gently caress are you typing ~problematic~ like that? Only meant to do it once, to be tongue in cheek about using a term that i think has kind of ~jumped the shark~. Hope that clears it the gently caress up! Sharks Eat Bear fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 00:47
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Sharks Eat Bear posted:I'm admittedly not a youtube or podcast guy so I don't know anything about the ppl who made this video, but I thought it was an interesting analysis of Greenwald's allure to the left, despite him very much not being a leftist Notes as I watch it: 1. Out of context greenwald is wrong, in context he's more wrong but has thought about it, leading to the idea that all we should expect from him is that he "acts in good faith". Why? A good faith moron is still a moron, is it necessary to assume right wing assholes are not acting in good faith? Everyone thinks they are acting in good faith to advance things they actually believe are important, this is not a notable or useful trait at all. 2. Sam seder takes greenwald out of context which the speaker thinks is worse than anything greenwald has said. Then proceeds to play "the context" which... does not in any way refute seder or his co host's views and is in fact even more loving stupid because glenn apparently believes that identifying as trans or NB gives you some sort of institutional power in leftist spaces to just loving mind control people or that there are some magic "codes" that prevent you from disagreeing with people. Again this is still absolutely stupid horseshit and in no way is relevant to the criticism that being trans or NB does not confer special rights and that suggesting that people are asking for special rights hearkens back to the gay panic of previous decades. Like this is a completely bizzare bit of video editing, taking greenwald out of context is bad, if you listen to the context it would make seder's position untenable, he then provides the context and it in no way does that, this is apparently an argument? Like no there is no argument here, there is just a series of assertions none of which support any of the others, presumably you are supposed to watch them in sequence and this is supposed to resemble an argument if you squint your eyes and tilt your head. Who the gently caress is this idiot? 3. Glenn is actually correct because this one person who works at substack totally got their position by playing the oppression olympics and called greenwald transphobic. Uh ok dude tell me more about the trans conspiracy lol. I have no idea who this guy is but this video makes him seem like a giant loving moron lol. do I have to watch the second half or is it all as stupid as the first half?
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Apr 1, 2021 01:18
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OwlFancier posted:Notes as I watch it: Yeah, Doug Lain is a singularly unconvincing figure, a dark void of charisma. The only one of that group that has anything to recommend them is ben burgis but even he's kinda boring. At least Burgis makes more entertaining content because he genuinely does try to debate libertarians rather than just sleepily espousing the value of debate but marxistly. I think the weird thing about these people is that they think glenn is saying things that are new or interesting. Lame liberal arguments for and about discourse and freedom of speech that have been around since Mill are a dime a dozen and Glenn isn't even that good at writing or speaking in support of them. They're just a weapon in his rhetorical arsenal when it comes to defending people he considers his friends and colleagues in the media.
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Apr 1, 2021 01:34
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I again do not at all understand this bizzare idea that people seem to be coming up with where being "principled" about free speech somehow gives you power? Or even that the only "principle" you can possibly hold on the subject is free speech absolutism, both of which are just flat out wrong. And yeah that is a loving ancient take and it's no more correct now than when anyone else has tried to push it. What kind of leftist believes in the magical ability of principles to stand up to raw power? If you want someone to tell you that you can read loving cs lews or some other hack.
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Apr 1, 2021 01:37
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OwlFancier posted:I again do not at all understand this bizzare idea that people seem to be coming up with where being "principled" about free speech somehow gives you power? Or even that the only "principle" you can possibly hold on the subject is free speech absolutism, both of which are just flat out wrong. Yeah free speech focus has never been a leftist thing because we know that free speech only ever means free speech for the oppressor group. That's why Nazis get their 5 person march surrounded by 30 police to protect their rights and a 500 person candle vigil gets gassed and beaten.
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Apr 1, 2021 01:49
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Even if you accepted the position that a pure permissiveness principle is important, it's especially bizzare to argue for today when money can buy you an infinite amount of noise to drown out any permitted leftist message. The concept is so full of holes you could grate cheese on it. The only way to look at it that makes a lick of sense is that speech is not free, it has never been free, and the question that is most relevant is how can the left effectively fight in an inherently unfree, unprincipled, and potentially imbalanced environment. It is so, incredibly easy to simply understand deplatforming as a tool, a tool that will always be used by someone and which cannot be willed out of existence by principled thought, so the question only then becomes how and when can you use it to your advantage. That greenwald and his free speech fanclub seem so unwilling to do that either suggests they're idiots or they have some ulterior motive, and I don't really care which it is because in neither case does it seem productive to listen to them.
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Apr 1, 2021 01:59
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Sharks Eat Bear posted:I'm admittedly not a youtube or podcast guy so I don't know anything about the ppl who made this video, but I thought it was an interesting analysis of Greenwald's allure to the left, despite him very much not being a leftist When you do that in reference to a bunch of transphobic comments, it looks pretty lovely and dismissive, regardless of what you think about some term (problematic is way too mild for a number of his takes anyway).
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Apr 1, 2021 02:09
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