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i personally don't think assange should be tortured to death in prison for exposing the crimes of the american empire even if he is credibly accused of being a big ole creep
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Mar 18, 2021 09:14
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Sanguinia posted:I don't think anyone should be tortured to death in prison, but if you do a double rape you should definitely be in there no matter what other things you might have done. no, because 'there' is the torture prison for doing journalism and we don't normally punish people for things unrelated to their actual charge if one finds oneself saying some variant of 'torture is bad BUT' it's a pretty bad sign imo
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Mar 18, 2021 09:32
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also it does bear noting that assange has not actually been convicted of anything and his stated reason for not wanting to face the charges seems to have been vindicated by subsequent events so ymmv on that point as well
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Mar 18, 2021 09:34
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sure, i agree that the desire to hurt people for being pieces of poo poo is legitimate, but that's part of the reason that bourgeois society has nominally independent courts to deal with this sort of thing
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Mar 18, 2021 09:38
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the latter remark wasn't aimed at you, but at hellmaker, though i understand that this wasn't clear also the focus of the assange case *must* be the case he's undergoing right now, because that's the important thing that we can actually do something about. if the guy's a bad person, that's not actually relevant to the issue at hand, which is that of the british and american governments torturing a guy to death for his role in exposing their crimes. in an ideal world, assange would have a fair trial for the swedish allegations. he fled citing fear that if he was entered into the justice system he would be, effectively, tortured to death for his journalistic activity. now he's in the justice system for skipping bail, and is being tortured to death for his journalistic activity. this, imo, lends credence to his fears that he would not get a fair hearing, even absent the shocking behaviour of the US government in doing stuff like forcing the plane of the head of state of a sovereign government to land and submit to search in a third country in trying to get to him. i make no presumptions about what a swedish court would have found - and nor can anyone else, realistically. i've seen the allegations against assange and they seem credible enough to me to warrant a criminal prosecution. however, saying that the guy the entire western security-political consensus, a force which has wrought immeasurably more damage than any individual could ever hope to, wants you to hate is definitely a rapist based on allegations not actually tested in a court of law is playing the wrong game. if one cannot have a fair trial, then that's the state's problem. it seems reasonable to me to say that assange really was never in a position to have a fair trial given what's transpired since his actual arrest.
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Mar 18, 2021 10:37
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evilweasel posted:subsequent events have unequivocally demonstrated that assange's claim to fear extradition as a reason he could not live in sweden, but could live in the UK, was a lie well, this is correct given a hyperspecific and completely unreasonable interpretation of the positions involved, so i'm not surprised to see it advanced but assange's case pretty clearly rested on his fear of not having a legitimate chance of a fair trial and presumed extradition once he was in the criminal system, which seems to apply both in the UK and in sweden. though i note that they seem content with killing him off in britain due to the legal hassle
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Mar 18, 2021 16:37
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honestly i prefer to be wrong on the side of not killing people for journalism and then using unrelated alleged crimes to justify it. weird that this is so controversial (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 18, 2021 16:38
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like, the swedish government handles extradition on a case-by-case basis, subject to veto by britain. this means that swedish constitutionality or whatever doesn't really enter into it - if assange were judged to be non-suicidal and in reasonable health, the brits would not have a problem with that extradition according to the recent verdict. this is according to the swedish prosecution authority, at https://www.aklagare.se/en/news-and-press/media/the-assange-matter/kan-assange-utlamnas-fran-sverige-till-usa/ there is every reason to suspect that considerable effort would be exerted to encourage the swedish government to cooperate. assange's stated fears, unless interpreted in a way which makes no sense, were entirely reasonable at the time and have been clearly shown as such by later developments.
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Mar 18, 2021 16:47
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Fart Amplifier posted:He should have faced trial for rape. If you flee trial for rape, you're a piece of garbage i'm not terribly invested in assange's moral character, but i am invested in journalists being killed for doing journalism the bourgeois state is supposed to guarantee fair trials. when it cannot do this, its ability to provide justice is tainted. this is why it's so important for the evilweasels of the world to pretend that it would've been perfectly safe for assange to go to sweden to face charges, because then the state killing him for doing journalism is somehow justified
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Mar 18, 2021 17:08
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:It's extremely illuminating that the same people who won't stop complaining about rape apologia vis a vis Biden supporters suddenly start handwringing and using softer language when it is their guy who is accused, because it goes to show how thoroughly embedded these toxic attitudes are in our culture. We have a long, long way to go and a lot of progress to make, and it is depressing. i have never emphasised the sexual predator angle about biden, so this is not a correct post
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Mar 18, 2021 17:11
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the allegations against assange are that he's a rapist and i've already said that i find those allegations credible. as a matter of personal principle i don't like to assert that people have done specific crimes for which they haven't been convicted, especially when they're being persecuted by the full force of anglo-american state power. i don't mind that others don't share this principle, but it's telling that the criticism comes in the shape of condemning specific phrasing and rhetorical emphasis rather than engaging on substance
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Mar 18, 2021 17:16
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