|
Slanderer posted:Why does him having principles about free speech make you so mad? Having principles about free speech is good, but when "freedom of speech" is understood primarily as a set of cultural principles rather than a legal right, it tends to end up too self-contradictory to really be called a set of principles. (That's not to say that censorship by private actors is never a problem, or that there aren't times and places for uninhibited debate, but editors at a news organization doing their jobs is not inherently a grievous wrong, as Glenn seems to think, and as I assume The Intercept has had editors ever since Glenn co-founded it, his outrage is hypocritical.)
|
#
¿
Mar 25, 2021 17:58
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 10, 2024 01:43 |
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:who is dave Sim. i know the other assholes. The Cerebus the Aardvark guy. He became a crazy misogynist.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 26, 2021 17:59
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:oh so the opposite of that weird online comic dude who became an ultra feminist type and than naturally a hardcore TERF. Tatsuya Ishida of Sinfest?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 26, 2021 19:26
|
|
|
While I don't think "freedom of speech" is really the right framing for it, there's definitely been a long-running mentality/movement, which often appears superficially "left" or at least "liberal," that's big on "shocking the bourgeoisie" and sees "Mrs. Grundy" or "middle-class hypocrisy" or even "the superego" as the main enemy to be defeated. It sort of links together figures like Bill Maher, R. Crumb, George Carlin, various 19th-century French artists, etc. Much of the time it manifests itself as harmless artistic pretentiousness, and sometimes it can even do some good when repressive social/aesthetic norms really are an important part of the problem, but it's fundamentally amoral, and will aggressively break a good social norm just as easily as a bad one. Even in its more "progressive" forms it's tended to be unthinkingly sexist - notice that it's "Mrs. Grundy," not "Mr. Grundy" (and her Saturday Night Live Counterpart is the Church Lady, not the Church Gentleman, etc.). Over the past decade or so the US left-of-center has thankfully tended to turn against anti-Grundyism, while people like Milo Yiannopoulos have taken anti-Grundyism in a more overtly reactionary direction. But there's still a bunch of passionate anti-Grundyists who thought of themselves as liberal or leftist, like Maher and Taibbi, who didn't make the shift, are left feeling angry and confused, and now come across as the bigots and general assholes that they really were all along.
Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Mar 30, 2021 |
|
#
¿
Mar 30, 2021 02:22
|
|
|
Silver2195 posted:While I don't think "freedom of speech" is really the right framing for it, there's definitely been a long-running mentality/movement, which often appears superficially "left" or at least "liberal," that's big on "shocking the bourgeoisie" and sees "Mrs. Grundy" or "middle-class hypocrisy" or even "the superego" as the main enemy to be defeated. It sort of links together figures like Bill Maher, R. Crumb, George Carlin, various 19th-century French artists, etc. Much of the time it manifests itself as harmless artistic pretentiousness, and sometimes it can even do some good when repressive social/aesthetic norms really are an important part of the problem, but it's fundamentally amoral, and will aggressively break a good social norm just as easily as a bad one. Even in its more "progressive" forms it's tended to be unthinkingly sexist - notice that it's "Mrs. Grundy," not "Mr. Grundy" (and her Saturday Night Live Counterpart is the Church Lady, not the Church Gentleman, etc.). Over the past decade or so the US left-of-center has thankfully tended to turn against anti-Grundyism, while people like Milo Yiannopoulos have taken anti-Grundyism in a more overtly reactionary direction. But there's still a bunch of passionate anti-Grundyists who thought of themselves as liberal or leftist, like Maher and Taibbi, who didn't make the shift, are left feeling angry and confused, and now come across as the bigots and general assholes that they really were all along. I should add that I don't claim that any of this is a particularly original observation, even in the context of these forums; I remember some discussion of this, probably with somewhat different terminology, in the context of, e.g., Molly Crabapple's embarrassing past connections to Weev, and in the discussion of Kill All Normies back when that came out. In fact Kill All Normies itself, as the title suggests, made this point in more detail. (Unfortunately I think Angela Nagle became some sort of chud herself since then.) Of course, SA itself was pretty anti-Grundyist prior to 2012 or so, and even still is somewhat in comparison to, say, RPG.net.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 30, 2021 02:42
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:whats a "mrs grundy"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs_Grundy quote:Mrs Grundy is a figurative name for an extremely conventional or priggish person, a personification of the tyranny of conventional propriety.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 30, 2021 02:49
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:As an aside, "I am a classical liberal at odds with the establishment" is a very common phrase among people who are actually pretty far right. Indeed. One oddity of modern politics is that right-wingers will rarely admit how right-wing/authoritarian/racist their views actually are. (Even the ones often described here as "saying the quiet parts out loud" are just admitting openly to what more mainstream right-wingers privately believe; you get the impression that their own private views are even more extreme.) One form this takes is fascists or near-fascists posing as "classical liberals" or centrists. This is the shtick of basically the entire "Intellectual Dark Web." A cruder form of it is the "neutral citizen journalist" mask used by fascist grifters like Tim Pool.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 31, 2021 21:04
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 10, 2024 01:43 |
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Yeah free speech focus has never been a leftist thing because we know that free speech only ever means free speech for the oppressor group. This is a rather...simplistic view of the matter. (Cases in which unpopular left-wing speakers benefitted from the First Amendment are not hard to find.)
|
|
#
¿
Apr 1, 2021 02:30
|
|