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Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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I had a similar but especially weird issue in my first attempt at playing this game, because I genuinely at some point thought that I had nowhere to go even though that seems literally impossible in retrospect. There was a certain obstacle I had encountered in an early-game area (the Fog Canyon, actually) which led me to believe that Soon, I'd find something to pass by there and that was necessary. Basically, poisoned by "oh there's a small gap, I'll find a slide soon" design in other Metroidvanias. I kept going back there and trying new tools and it never worked. I kept finding non-progress-essential stuff and nothing helped there. I think finally I found a big movement upgrade and was like phew now I can re-explore...everything, I'll do it next week for sure


and then didn't play for two years


No chance to pick that back up, totally confused as to where I'd been before, and what I tried, so when I saw your thread I finally got off my rear end, restarted from the beginning, reached said movement upgrade in literally a third the time, and proceeded to finish the game around your tenth update. Felt really good. I haven't done all the content - because especially with all the stuff added from the free updates, there's a hell of a lot - but I'm pretty satisfied with my HK experience, and I'll probably replay it eventually.

Overall despite my bizarre hangup the first time around I'd say it's really loving good, with even the problem spots mostly being patched-in optional superhard challenges where I'll just say sure, not for me. Especially on the replay it's eye-opening how truly open the game is, a phenomenal accomplishment imo. And it still manages to have obvious "go there later maybe" and a "this is probably the intended babby's path" route.

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Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
There is something about the travel distances that I do not enjoy either; as Nat remarked at the end and when he wasn't sure what the best way to the next station would be, you can get pretty far in and have to walk a while until you can fast travel. While you're exploring, that does increase the "oh poo poo I'm always going deeper and farther away from safety aaaah" atmosphere, but when you just want to cash in or later are checking missed secrets off a list, it can drag.

Mantis Village is particularly badly connected, imo. Funnily enough there's a door in the Fungal Wastes that would make a nice shortcut into City of Tears, but it's closed off and there's nothing you can do to open it lol

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
A speedrun I recently watched gets that treasure, not for 100% but for convenient money. I also hadn't known it was there. Wild that Nat just does it.

C-Euro posted:

Longnail and Mark of Pride do indeed stack :eng101: There are a bunch of charms that interact with each other in special ways, though it's not obvious when you've come up with a functional pairing until you see it in action.

Also I'm almost certain that the big gold bug dropped 420 Geo :420:
He did. Timely!

This is about where the actual story begins to happen. It's crazy how much more sense what the Dreamers say makes after you've finished the game. Right now, it might as well be gibberish.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Tenebrais posted:

Oh wow, I had no idea you could get thoughts out of the dreamshield shrine.

I guess the purpose of having you already have missed Cornifer is to push you to go back to the shop and discover there are new pins for you to buy for the new collectables.

I just checked the map and there really is no way to get there without crossing over the dreamer's trap, huh?

Alxprit posted:

Crystal Peak! I always forget how exactly one gets here for whatever reason. I believe you can't interact with that tollgate without the lantern. It's one of my favorite areas in the game, mostly for its aesthetic. Can't wait to see more of it next time.
Was that the tollgate they added in a patch because they didn't want people to get through there without the lantern? It would be super easy, considering it's only one dark room...

I too love the Crystal Peak, for exactly the "gamey" feel, I enjoy the platforming there a lot.

And you're probably forgetting how to get there because there's an alternate way requiring a future powerup.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I love how you're also "trapped" in the City of Tears with the door closing behind you, but there's like three ways out if you explore enough.

There's one route that's like I initially assumed it would be designed like: you have to get an ability that allows you to leave the way you came it. However, that's entirely optional as we saw.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Solitair posted:

I also beat the Crystal Guardian on my first try. :smuggo: The game has had many other opportunities to kick my rear end, though.
Same, Crystal Guardian imo is very patternized and doesn't have that many attacks, as well as clear healing opportunities. I was able to sight-read it as well.

Died plenty on all the other bosses shown off already, though.

As for routes: my first time until I stopped I don't quite remember, but I did get to Peak pretty early and then for some reason didn't finish it - which blocked my progress at some point later. I also don't remember the Guardian. Might have just been an idiot wrt exploring?

Second time which I did finish, I unlocked the Waterway but just...ignored it until way the hell later because I kept getting distracted by other stuff. Deepnest I deliberately saved until way late. Reached Resting Ground via Crystal Peak as well which disoriented me a lot, especially with the missing map, haha. Actually, maybe that was what happened in my first playthrough, and that's why I only explored half of Peak?

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
This impenetrable black energy preventing me from getting the map broke something in my brain, I've talked about it before. I was utterly convinced that TRUE progress was beyond and kept trying every new weapon, upgrade etc...

Btw, if you have a big unmoving target that teleports after being hit once...why not try you new Mega Buster on it?

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I've had a very tough time against many bosses initially, but Soul Master I did first try. He has a lot of very tough attacks especially on first glance, but he leaves you such big and obvious healing windows that I just never got hit often enough to outpace my healing. It was almost a breath of relief compared to previous fights where the windows were juuust not long enough (or rather, they weren't actual windows, I was just really hoping they were).

But that's ofc very, very personal - this doesn't mean that whoever did have issues was a big dumdum. It's always important to emphasize that, I think.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I use nail arts all the drat time, because I'm just such a sucker for charge attacks. Must be all the Mega Man.

Apparently, they buffed the spin slash at some point, so maybe for people playing it at release, it was worth. But man, if you can get a full spin going against an enemy, it just deals mega damage. If you don't have time for a spin and it's a boss that only leaves you time for one hit anyway, normal charge is the way to go. Dash, I never see a use case, admittedly.

Generally, it's just another tool in your arsenal. Sometimes it's really good, sometimes it's detrimental.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I absolutely love using Steady Body as a pure DPS increase. Excellent idea by Nat, especially combined with the quick nail.


Also I don't think Hollow Knight does necessarily adhere to a very typical "post-game" idea. Like, you don't have to beat the final boss and get the "bad ending" to unlock the path to the "good ending". You can just keep digging deeper and deeper until you find out enough to be satisfied with. You're not killing the dream bosses to make a dry number go up, you do it because they're there, they represent unfinished business, and then you learn something about them (see: Soul Tyrant's dialogue), and you get an opportunity to learn even more from the Seer. The entire game has no obvious reason for why you're doing things you're doing. Why should it start giving you a clear motivation now?


Also consider Metroidvania progression: you can beat the "final" boss fairly early as far as content goes, but in order to unlock the Real Game Begins Here part, you have to do something extra. Everything after that is technically "post-game" but nobody in their right mind would call the Inverted Castle that. It's the second act.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I don't think I've ever really considered the exact "why" of the Dream versions. There's two easy explanations that suffice for me, one in-universe and one meta:
a) plenty of people leave their spirit behind in this game. Some in the open, some hidden in dreams. All available and interactable with by the Dream Nail. The fights are bosses who were kinda pathetic in body but dream of being much stronger, so you're fighting them how they'd wish they could fight irl. This releases essence because yada yada strong will soul energy whatever
b) the developers wanted to make awesome fuckoff versions of kinda easy earlygame bosses to catch you offguard, and that owns imo and I'm super happy with them having done it no matter the reason

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Cactus posted:

This was my attitude, but toward the whole game.

"Amazing world to explore, cool combat to be had, let's do it. Don't need a reason!"
That's literally Dark Souls as well and all the lore people have deluded themselves very successfully about there being a "story"

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Something that's not immediately obvious about the Grimmkin is that their charge attack doesn't have to be dodged. You can just hit them out of it.

Therefore, charge the mega buster, wait for them to fly towards you, bam they fly into your attack and get mega damage while you're safe.

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Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Congrats on finishing this awesome Let's Play. Your skill was always astonishing, as was witnessing your exploration and the attempts by tea to guide you. Good poo poo, I've really enjoyed it. Too bad I'll have to save Metroid until after I've beaten it, and I am a slow gamer :v:

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