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Gringostar posted:why would anyone post in d&d though? This is a really good question, and fair.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:48
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I don't really know where the line should be drawn but I feel like there's a lot of acreage between endorsing or justifying the wide-spread repression of an ethnic minority (obviously gross and bad), quibbling about the evidence (okay in the context of the entire case for genocide resting on the 'research' of one right-wing nutcase), and questioning whether the U.S' claims of genocide would be in play with any country in the world it wasn't trying to regime change (a good and valuable discussion to have). I guess I don't get why U.S. propaganda about what's taking place inside China should be the mod-sponsored law of the land in this supposedly left wing-oriented forum, at least let us fight and argue about it maybe we'll all learn something new from doing so??? AnimeIsTrash posted:This is a good post, i'd add that Brutalist McDonalds was a mod for quite a while and no one was complaining about him.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:49
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Hairy Marionette posted:If you don’t want a slap fight don’t start one. Instead, respond to people with respect and an attempt at understanding. You really shouldn't have used the word chinaphile if you wanted an appeal to your education and travel experience to be taken seriously on this matter.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:49
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Rime posted:If the forums can permaban an admin for genocide denial, they can probate the tankies for genocide denial until they stop kramering in and making GBS threads up unrelated threads with very tedious and unfunny posts denying an ongoing genocide. quote:When the D&D mods told you not to post in D&D they weren't kidding. Since this is the second time you've decided to openly disregard this, I'm dropping a couple of weeks to make it clear that the admins will support them in this. Can I assume this poster isn't posting/reporting in good faith, mods? Because if so, if they are behind the reports you guys are taking seriously then lol. My feedback for Xinjiang is that I don't know what the gently caress is going on, it probably sucks and I'd like to be able to see leftists talk about it without mods wading in to decide one way or the other. The losing side will be the one who can't post without melting down about it - as is CSPAM tradition. Otherwise, THS hit it perfectly on the nail: THS posted:I don’t think there is any way to setup a poll of active CSPAM posters that wouldn’t be abused, but anecdotally the active participants of the threads do not have an issue with the topic as it was being discussed, or at least do not consider banning it as being appropriate even if they disagree. If someone from the Trump thread or D&D or GBS can’t handle a discussion of China that doesn’t obsessively manufacture consent for the new cold war with China, they should probably not read the LF or China threads in CSPAM.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:50
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I dunno I knew a bunch of Chinese History majors and pretty much all of them used the term chinaphile on their twitters/facebook/tinder. I'm not sure what term I'd use for myself. Turanophile?
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Mar 24, 2021 19:52
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QUEER FRASIER posted:I guess I don't get why U.S. propaganda about what's taking place inside China should be the mod-sponsored law of the land in this supposedly left wing-oriented forum, at least let us fight and argue about it maybe we'll all learn something new from doing so??? tbh it's probably because in general people who deny genocides are just the loving worst and like the first nazi sitting down in the bar if you let them they'll attract more nazis and then you end up with a community of posters resembling stormfront or the republican party or D&D
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Mar 24, 2021 19:53
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The Oldest Man posted:No but the China rule is not solely the province of the CSPAM mods so this conversation not addressing the wider site is part of what makes me skeptical that it's really all that honest to begin with. So I know and understand that a lot of people are frustrated with other moderation decisions in other subforums. I am sympathetic however we (cspam mods) have no control over those other subforums or mods. there's nothing we can do about it here. this thread is for us to figure out how we're going to deal with the topic going forward here, in cspam only, because this is the only space we have control over. so I would ask everyone that in order to keep things from getting confusing, please stick to talking about the topic and moderation as it relates to cspam only in this thread.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:58
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I've put these two paragraphs in both the generic communism thread and the eurasia thread but i'm going to repost them here because they seem to have been useful to people. These are two posts a friend of mine made on another discussion board to criticize and contextualize what's happening in Xinjiang and also Mongolia. Sorry for the lack of caps etc:quote:it's one of those things where there's a coherent argument that the definition of genocide should include what's going on, but if you actually applied it evenly you would find that the uk did several hundred genocides and we are doing like three or four right now. what's going on in western china is bad, but mostly for more mundane reasons of cultural chauvinism, the everyday shittiness of hostile police forces, and various forms of coercing people into participating in the national wage labor market. the government is way more liberal than the public on minority issues in china, and the public in turn are somewhat more accepting of minority cultures having a place in the country than in several neighboring countries. in fact the problem is precisely that they're listening too much to the liberal stuff because they're abandoning the soviet nationalities model and want to build a western melting pot, and are trying to take the most simple liberal criticisms of how the west actually did that and apply it in naïve fashion: for example they don't want to be seen as repressing islam in general, so they try to identify a good and bad islam, and come up with various theological doctrines and ritual practices associated with each, and layer in judgments about national and separatist identity, which may or may not be defensible in theory, but then when time comes to apply in practice, it means cops and spies caring a lot about whether your mosque conducts services in arabic or some central asian language other than uighur, and getting mad if they can't quickly figure out who someone is quoting or referencing, and a dozen other situations where the details of religious life are not readily legible to the police bureaucracy, generating suspicion and hostility that they're free to take as probable cause or whatever their analogue is. like, they're basically trying to be more woke than us about it, while also doing a hell of a lot more of it and more comprehensively transformative and in everyone's face than we would (whereas the instinct of liberal interventionists when confronted with messy effects from disruptive policies is to minimize things, fiddle with edge cases, target more narrowly), and that generates extreme contradictions quote:do we know that maoist and/or bolivarian communes aren’t happening? yes I think it does a good job of squaring the circle of, on one hand, acknowledging that there is obviously state-based coercion and repression happening along ethnic and religious lines, but on the other hand understanding that the incentives of the developmentalist Chinese state are different from the incentives of the hegemonic US state and therefore alter how and why China treats with its own ethnic minorities. Trying to proletarianize your rural population in order to increase the urban labor pool is different from trying to terrorize migrants in order to maintain an easily-exploited lower stratum in the reserve army of labor. This on its own isn't meant to convince anyone (I assume this isn't actually meant to be a thread in which the debate is settled), but I'm trying to illustrate here that the "pro-China" take is a good-faith analysis coming from a particular socialist tradition and not a deliberate attempt to sweep war crimes under the rug or something.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:58
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Zedhe Khoja posted:I dunno I knew a bunch of Chinese History majors and pretty much all of them used the term chinaphile on their twitters/facebook/tinder. Maybe it's a regional thing because I've never heard that term in my life.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:58
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THS posted:I don’t think there is any way to setup a poll of active CSPAM posters that wouldn’t be abused, but anecdotally the active participants of the threads do not have an issue with the topic as it was being discussed, or at least do not consider banning it as being appropriate even if they disagree. If someone from the Trump thread or D&D or GBS can’t handle a discussion of China that doesn’t obsessively manufacture consent for the new cold war with China, they should probably not read the LF or China threads in CSPAM. Just want to add my voice in support of this post. Also Rime way to acknowledge youre the worst kind of poster, i never really minded your posts as some do but the above post(edit; drat new page) is just pure garbage.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:59
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The Oldest Man posted:No but the China rule is not solely the province of the CSPAM mods so this conversation not addressing the wider site is part of what makes me skeptical that it's really all that honest to begin with. I mean, we decide what rules should be enforced in this forum and although the admins have in the past expressed a lot of dislike toward, for instance, homex's China opinions, we can still resist efforts to enforce something like that here if it's apparent that the forum as a whole agrees.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:02
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Maybe it's a regional thing because I've never heard that term in my life. Oh not in Kunduz no, it's a Bukharan expression
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Mar 24, 2021 20:03
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:You really shouldn't have used the word chinaphile if you wanted an appeal to your education and travel experience to be taken seriously on this matter. I was a Chinaphile though. It’s what motivated me to study China during college. I still really like China and wish the CCP wasn’t so evil, but their evil is approximately equivalent to America’s evil from what I can tell. Anyway, what causes problems like the one we’re discussing in this thread is that we don’t treat each other with respect when we have different opinions on matters that we’re emotionally attached to. Instead we snipe each other and hold those with a differing opinion to a higher standard than we hold ourselves. I’ll continue to be too honest in a vain attempt to bridge that gap.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:05
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really queer Christmas posted:Oh not in Kunduz no, it's a Bukharan expression I see
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Mar 24, 2021 20:07
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I'm not sure chinaphile vs sinophile is a regional so much as "personal clique" thing to be fair.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:07
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As a more general suggestion, probating or banning for mod sass, even when you think you are being jokey or cute, is probably the most efficient way to engage the Streisand-effect and in turn cause a lot of people to tell you to eat their rear end and cease engaging beyond throwing insults. Having a thicker skin in general is a good approach to moderating a forum. Causing hostility among a large section of the community makes your job harder, and you can’t blame how bad reactions to the CSPAM moderation have gotten on anyone but yourselves. BrutalistMcDonalds is the aforementioned example of a moderator who managed to not provoke people constantly.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:08
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Ferrinus posted:I've put these two paragraphs in both the generic communism thread and the eurasia thread but i'm going to repost them here because they seem to have been useful to people. These are two posts a friend of mine made on another discussion board to criticize and contextualize what's happening in Xinjiang and also Mongolia. Sorry for the lack of caps etc: Those are both really good posts.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:11
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Hairy Marionette posted:I was a Chinaphile though. It’s what motivated me to study China during college. I still really like China and wish the CCP wasn’t so evil, but their evil is approximately equivalent to America’s evil from what I can tell. You're completely right and I'm sorry I didn't know chinaphile was an established term.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:12
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mods are stuck in a snoo/lk mindset. it can't be salvaged and why the one good mod had to walk away.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:13
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boo boo bear posted:mods are stuck in a snoo/lk mindset. it can't be salvaged and why the one good mod had to walk away. What do you mean by that?
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Mar 24, 2021 20:14
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fanfic insert posted:Just want to add my voice in support of this post. Yeah fam, given my close family members are survivors of a cultural genocide here in ol' canuck land I get a bit touchy when I see people ardently flag-waving in support of Genocide, or hand waving it away as "necessary", or denying that it has been ramping up for over twenty years, because they think doing so is somehow "owning" the west. There is no free pass for denying a Genocide just because you think authoritarian Country A is ideologically superior to failed-state Country B. That we are having people argue this stance in good faith here is exceedingly hosed up.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:15
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Rime posted:Yeah fam, given my close family members are survivors of a cultural genocide here in ol' canuck land I get a bit touchy when I see people ardently flag-waving in support of Genocide, or hand waving it away as "necessary" because they think doing so is somehow "owning" the west. Yeah this is essentially the root of the issue as I see it, so whether you like Rime or not I'd like this to be addressed by the people arguing in favor of less moderation.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:18
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:You're completely right and I'm sorry I didn't know chinaphile was an established term. Nor did I, it just seemed like a succinct way to describe my youthful interest in China. I read the Tao Te Cheng when I was in ninth grade. And I did five years of Professor Chang’s shortened Yang style Tai Chi starting in August 2001. I was really into cinema too and greatly enjoyed martial arts films. The Chinese fight scene choreography and editing was significantly better than the American styles and I can still go into great detail about how and why. edit: you can see the difference quite clearly by comparing Jackie Chan’s Chinese films to his American films. Hairy Marionette has issued a correction as of 20:21 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 20:19
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Crusty Nutsack posted:when you talk about the mod team policing discussion about the US's genocide projects, are you talking about cspam mods? Flavius Aetass posted:anyway just to clarify the line, because it will continue to get more complicated as this ramps up in the news cycle, it is the position of the mod team that what has been happening in Xinjiang province for decades is akin to cultural genocide and that it is Really Bad to deny that. someone who does not have 4 bans in two months will probably not be treated the same as someone who does. In practice this means post at your own risk since it's a judgement call. It was effective in killing all actual discussion about the topic in the thread it was posted in .
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Mar 24, 2021 20:21
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Ferrinus posted:I've put these two paragraphs in both the generic communism thread and the eurasia thread but i'm going to repost them here because they seem to have been useful to people. These are two posts a friend of mine made on another discussion board to criticize and contextualize what's happening in Xinjiang and also Mongolia. Sorry for the lack of caps etc: This is a good post, thank you.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:23
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Flavius Aetass posted:Yeah this is essentially the root of the issue as I see it, so whether you like Rime or not I'd like this to be addressed by the people arguing in favor of less moderation. Defense or even contextualization of the CCP's policies in various ethnic autonomous regions isn't a matter of "this genocide is good, actually" or "though this genocide is regrettable, it is a price we have to pay for progress", it's "this isn't a genocide." In fact, for many, the Soviet and Chinese models autonomy and targeted economic development for ethnic minorities is precisely an alternative and antidote to the flatly genocidal policies of such liberal capitalist states as Canada.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:25
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The Oldest Man posted:tbh it's probably because in general people who deny genocides are just the loving worst and like the first nazi sitting down in the bar if you let them they'll attract more nazis and then you end up with a community of posters resembling stormfront or the republican party or D&D I've been lurking this discussion and it seems like a problem with this way of thinking is that a lot of C-SPAM is segregated into individual threads with little overlap otherwise. So, when you hear about someone posting "genocide denial", you go look and you haven't ever seen that poster before, or any of the ones defending/agreeing with them, and it's easy to assume they're the Nazis in your metaphor. There have been a few posters I've noticed in C-SPAM who, for whatever reason, loved to pop into random threads and make little cryptofascist hints (generally to little effect except being told to gently caress off), but all of the posters I've seen involved in the moderation action in question have consistently posted on leftist ideological grounds.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:29
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Flavius Aetass posted:Yeah this is essentially the root of the issue as I see it, so whether you like Rime or not I'd like this to be addressed by the people arguing in favor of less moderation. I can respect the take that China defense is poo poo, but if you actually applied it sincerely & consistently it'd mean banning anyone who says nice things about Biden or the US in general, and I don't think that will happen. The US is currently holding a people without trial for decades, keeping people in concentration camps on the borders, shooting people in the streets, supporting the genocidal states of Israel and Saudi Arabia, and so on. hosed up no good things, so I'm non-plussed about the ban 'em all stance since in practice it seems to be only applied to people who think China is still a leftist project.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:31
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Rime posted:Yeah fam, given my close family members are survivors of a cultural genocide here in ol' canuck land I get a bit touchy when I see people ardently flag-waving in support of Genocide, or hand waving it away as "necessary", or denying that it has been ramping up for over twenty years, because they think doing so is somehow "owning" the west. I dont mind being against it or arguing against them or even calling them out using your own experiences or whatever, not even taking a stance on this, but reflexively pushing the report button because someones perception of something that is currently happening, especially in a forum specifically made to discuss politics, knowing how strong the propaganda is from all sides, is just being a poo poo person.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:32
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Ferrinus posted:Defense or even contextualization of the CCP's policies in various ethnic autonomous regions isn't a matter of "this genocide is good, actually" or "though this genocide is regrettable, it is a price we have to pay for progress", it's "this isn't a genocide." In fact, for many, the Soviet and Chinese models autonomy and targeted economic development for ethnic minorities is precisely an alternative and antidote to the flatly genocidal policies of such liberal capitalist states as Canada.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:34
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Brain Candy posted:I can respect the take that China defense is poo poo, but if you actually applied it sincerely & consistently it'd mean banning anyone who says nice things about Biden or the US in general, and I don't think that will happen. The US is currently holding a people without trial for decades, keeping people in concentration camps on the borders, shooting people in the streets, supporting the genocidal states of Israel and Saudi Arabia, and so on. hosed up no good things, so I'm non-plussed about the ban 'em all stance since in practice it seems to be only applied to people who think China is still a leftist project. Also the just plain full blown genocide in Yemen which they're an active participant in, primarily through the tool used for the genocide: the naval blockade of northern Yemen.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:34
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Rime posted:Yeah fam, given my close family members are survivors of a cultural genocide here in ol' canuck land I get a bit touchy when I see people ardently flag-waving in support of Genocide, or hand waving it away as "necessary", or denying that it has been ramping up for over twenty years, because they think doing so is somehow "owning" the west. you are a literal ecofascist and have been called out numerous times because you support terrorizing developing nations. The fact that you admit to relentlessly snitching out posters to forums cops is just rich. You have to be one of the worst posters here.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:34
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Ferrinus posted:Defense or even contextualization of the CCP's policies in various ethnic autonomous regions isn't a matter of "this genocide is good, actually" or "though this genocide is regrettable, it is a price we have to pay for progress", it's "this isn't a genocide." In fact, for many, the Soviet and Chinese models autonomy and targeted economic development for ethnic minorities is precisely an alternative and antidote to the flatly genocidal policies of such liberal capitalist states as Canada. Genocide is OK here because we are ideologically pure, unlike those filthy capitalists. There is zero difference between the decades of enforced Sinicization and cultural repression in Xinjiang, and the Residential Schools program of Canada. To claim that what is occurring there is fine and acceptable because China was a communist nation decades ago is insanity. To claim crimes against humanity are an "antidote" to capitalism is reprehensible and disgusting. Like, FFS, Nat Geo was covering the beginnings of this in the late 1990's when they were cracking down in Kashgar. This is not a hot new CIA psyops campaign. Rime has issued a correction as of 20:43 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 20:35
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Ferrinus posted:Defense or even contextualization of the CCP's policies in various ethnic autonomous regions isn't a matter of "this genocide is good, actually" or "though this genocide is regrettable, it is a price we have to pay for progress", it's "this isn't a genocide." In fact, for many, the Soviet and Chinese models autonomy and targeted economic development for ethnic minorities is precisely an alternative and antidote to the flatly genocidal policies of such liberal capitalist states as Canada. It's important to separate what's happening due to "progress" and what's happening due to top-down direct repression. The widening income gaps and worsening situation for the rural Uyghur population is largely due to the state-sponsored influx of Han immigrants to the cities, poorly coordinated industrial agriculture in desert regions, and the general weakening of the nominal Uyghur autonomous government in favor of the Xinjiang Construction and Production Corps and the CCP. I don't think this phenomenon is any worse than how minorities are treated in capitalist countries, possibly better even. However it's harder to defend the central government taking a stand on what is or is not authentic Uyghur Muslim culture vs insidious foreign radical Saudi Muslim culture, especially when they seem to be taking pretty harsh measures to crack down on the latter, and since the latter is really closer to a traditional orthodox Muslim theology than the kind of laid back Sufi-influenced Islam that central Asian Muslims have followed for centuries. Flavius Aetass has issued a correction as of 20:40 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 20:37
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Kindest Forums User posted:you are a literal ecofascist and have been called out numerous times because you support terrorizing developing nations. The fact that you admit to relentlessly snitching out posters to forums cops is just rich. You have to be one of the worst posters here. don't post like that here, please
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Mar 24, 2021 20:39
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Flavius Aetass posted:Yeah this is essentially the root of the issue as I see it, so whether you like Rime or not I'd like this to be addressed by the people arguing in favor of less moderation. People have already posted sources from Grayzone regarding how suspect the reporting is on Xinjiang. If Rime wants to try and argue that the evidence is not largely US State Dept propaganda backed by a right-wing Christian fundamentalist, they should try that instead of using the Report button as a cudgel. Rime is a weirdly violent poster though, so maybe they report over posting because they know they will come off as unhinged. Regardless, no one is denying there is repression occurring. Claims of cultural genocide shouldn’t be taken as some obvious undeniable Given, especially in the context of a mostly western forum at a time when the amount of anti-China state propaganda is truly staggering. There is a reason why the number of US citizens who believe China is the biggest threat to world peace has doubled in the last few years. So for CSPAM’s part, if discussion and questioning of this propaganda is labeled genocide denial, I think this is just intended to shut down discussion completely at a time of rapidly rising tensions and general sinophobia.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:40
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Kindest Forums User posted:you are a literal ecofascist and have been called out numerous times because you support terrorizing developing nations. The fact that you admit to relentlessly snitching out posters to forums cops is just rich. You have to be one of the worst posters here. I apologize in advance for calling you out Kindest Forums User. This is the kind of post we should be probating people for if we really want to improve the quality of our discussions. Personal attacks are counterproductive and only further divide us and stop us from listening to each other in good faith. This is the case even when those personal attacks are accurate. I have no knowledge of the truth value of the above personal attack.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:41
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Is current-day China proof that communism works? Jury's still out on that one, but it's definitely proof that Deng knew what he was talking about. Rime posted:Genocide is OK here because we are ideologically pure, unlike those filthy capitalists. See, you've literally read the opposite of what I wrote. I don't think genocide is okay. You and I disagree on the facts, not the ethics. If I thought the vocational schools in China were even the loose equivalent of the residential schools in Canada, I would oppose them in the strongest possible terms. However, I don't think they're the same for a variety of reasons (taking some adults rather than a preponderance of children, for starters). To be fair to you, I might be a gleeful supporter of genocide who is simply cloaking his bloodthirst beyond technical quibbles about contemporary and historical facts. For sure, actual holocaust deniers will open with leading questions about logistical feasibility, not lay all their cards down on the table immediately. However, that's not what I'm doing. I think the CCP has contradicting forces in it, some of which genuinely want to push Han chauvinism and who complain that minorities get too many rights, and others of which want to cleave to the Soviet "each nationality gets autonomy" model. I think both communists and capitalists in the Chinese elite have a strong interest in dumping as many people into the industrial proletariat as quickly as possible, such that terrorist attacks in Xinjiang give them a good pretext to ramp up and do manually something that was just happening due to market forces before. However, no one in China actually has an incentive to commit genocide on any of its internal nationalities rather than just put all those nationalities to work. This is why the one-child policy, for instance, hit the Han the heaviest and minorities like the Uyghurs the lightest.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:43
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THS posted:People have already posted sources from Grayzone regarding how suspect the reporting is on Xinjiang. If Rime wants to try and argue that the evidence is not largely US State Dept propaganda backed by a right-wing Christian fundamentalist, they should try that instead of using the Report button as a cudgel. Rime is a weirdly violent poster though, so maybe they report over posting because they know they will come off as unhinged. Regardless, no one is denying there is repression occurring. I agree that the mods should be taking a looser moderation role in this. I think I was coming down too hard and hamfisted before. I'm not sure I agree that the rising tensions and sinophobia are really relevant here though. I think C-SPAM posters can separate criticism of China's government from anti-Chinese prejudice or a desire for intervention.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:47
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Hairy Marionette posted:I apologize in advance for calling you out Kindest Forums User. nah, calling rime a piece of poo poo is good for the forums. neither is probe worthy. you have a snitch mindset. that is unhealthy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 24, 2021 20:48
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