|
THS posted:lol ok. keep the thread going for now though. the thread has only been up a couple hours, not a lot of people have had a chance to offer their opinions, and I have been one of the top posters. I’m also one of the worst posters, so get some more feedback yeah I'm going to step away for a while and see where the discussion goes from here before talking to the other mods about how to respond in full
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 04:20 |
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:yeah between the destruction of mosques and cemeteries which there is satellite photo evidence of it should be very hard to claim that china is not suppressing uighur cultural identity But how can you tell from such low resolution images? I’ve always been very skeptical of these claims e: Nate Russo might claim that a minaret has been demolished between the first and second image but it just looks like two grey blobs from 15k ft up in the air to me Red and Black has issued a correction as of 21:33 on Mar 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:30
|
|
|
THS posted:lol ok. keep the thread going for now though. the thread has only been up a couple hours, not a lot of people have had a chance to offer their opinions, and I have been one of the top posters. I’m also one of the worst posters, so get some more feedback yeah, this is my thinking. it doesn't matter what we say because sa isn't a democracy
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:30
|
|
|
Flavius Aetass posted:Can everyone live with this? 
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:31
|
|
|
Chomskyan posted:But how can you tell from such low resolution images? I’ve always been very skeptical of these claims i mean there are pictures of domed buildings and then several months later theres an empty lot where it was. now if the building was relocated or rebuilt i dunno but my gut instinct would be for the government to not touch religious buildings unless safety issues are at play
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:32
|
|
|
Serf posted:yeah, this is my thinking. it doesn't matter what we say because sa isn't a democracy in fairness neither is china or the us for that matter
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:38
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:also the increasingly prevelant need for speaking mandarin or other chinese dialects over native lanaguges causing a decline in fluent speakers of the latter but i'm not sure where to draw the line on that between government mandate enforcement and the effects of a modern industrial state A good thought experiment is to think about the alternative, if China completely severed from the region. Xinjiang would become its own country and closed off from China with border controls. What would become of the Uyghur population? Would they be able to thrive as the rest of the world develops? Maybe? Would they even be able to retain their original identity and culture, considering the rising influence of radical Islamists in that area? I wonder what Xinjiang would like if the west didn't destabilize the middle east and radicalize a huge portion of muslims..... In this scenario, where Xinjiag is its own country. what would happen to young people that would want to integrate into the world economy? Wouldn't they have to move to China or the West where no one speaks Uyghur? How would they maintain their culture if they wanted to escape rural poverty (especially as climate change puts immense pressures on the region).
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:41
|
|
|
Gringostar posted:in fairness i didn't argue otherwise. but at least if you have an issue with the government you can go protest and get arrested or something. here you can either complain endlessly or just stop posting, neither of which has any real effect
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:43
|
|
|
Kindest Forums User posted:A good thought experiment is to think about the alternative, if China completely severed from the region. Xinjiang would become its own country and closed off from China with border controls. What would become of the Uyghur population? Would they be able to thrive as the rest of the world develops? Maybe? Would they even be able to retain their original identity and culture, considering the rising influence of radical Islamists in that area? I wonder what Xinjiang would like if the west didn't destabilize the middle east and radicalize a huge portion of muslims..... yeah globalized industrialism is driving us to the tower of babel with or without government sanction
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:45
|
|
|
 even if we want to take bellingcat and the guardian seriously (lol) there are 24,000 mosques in xinjiang alone.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:45
|
|
|
Kindest Forums User posted:America is literally the most powerful place in the world and not one single person who enjoys her spoils are the original inhabitants of the land, or those that participated in the slave or slave-like labour of building the empire. This is mostly true, but our racism isn’t why we’ve got so much economic power. Our unscathed industrial base post WW2 is the cause. America was a backwaters until WW2 left us with a vast economic advantage over the rest of the world. We’d all be happier and healthier in this country if we weren’t so racist. I can understand being salty about Americans scolding you about racism (assuming you’re not also American). We’ve always been hypocritical about our stated values and my country of birth has done a lot of harm. Hell, we are easily the most morally culpable country regarding the climate catastrophe. You want to call America a great devil and the destroyer of the world, I can take it. But don’t tell me that our racism is rational. Our racism has poisoned us. It has turned us against each other. We engage in our incredibly self destructive politics in order to maintain our racism. We hurt each other greatly. We dehumanize each other. We kill each other. Our families break when a child rejects the racism of their parents, or when a child embraces racism in spite of their upbringing. And the racism is turned against those who look like us when said people refuse to participate in said racism. Don’t be like America. America is evil. Our racism is destroying our country.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:46
|
|
|
I’ve learned more about what might actually be happening in xinjiang from reading these few pages than I’ve ever been able to from wading through any other information, which usually just leaves me feeling like I can’t believe anything. it sounds like these informative posts are considered discussion that some people believe is harmful. that seems wrong, and antithetical to this forum thanks for the good posts, and the bad posts, and the posting
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:48
|
|
|
Yossarian-22 posted:Sorry I was quoting it to make a point, mostly that it shouldn't be taken out of context. Like I said, it is easy to see the word "evil" in an almost comical way such that it evokes a certain image, at least for me, of Reaganite rhetoric. Would it be right for mods to claim that the way you used "evil" is anti-Chinese racism? Of course not, just as skepticism of Uighur genocide shouldn't be taken to be anti-Uighur racism. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:48
|
|
|
Serf posted:i didn't argue otherwise. but at least if you have an issue with the government you can go protest and get arrested or something. here you can either complain endlessly or just stop posting, neither of which has any real effect there's a third option, you can also slam the report button about which directly feeds into someone's queue. the most effective complaining is against posting enemies when you think someone glancing in would get someone probed
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:49
|
|
|
Serf posted:i didn't argue otherwise. but at least if you have an issue with the government you can go protest and get arrested or something. here you can either complain endlessly or just stop posting, neither of which has any real effect i don’t know, you could make the analogy that being probated/banned is being put in jail and being permabanned is being murdered by the state also bitching about the mods is a form of protest but you also run the risk of being punished for it
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:49
|
|
|
some mod said C-SPAM has to be palatable to a liberal consensus elsewhere in the forums why? just don't read it, you're the free speech guys
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:50
|
|
|
Unless there's some hard evidence pointing to a mass killing, it seems odd to be probating anyone in c-spam for it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:51
|
|
|
Brain Candy posted:A claim that doing evil has no rational basis is either a very sophisticated or very naive. There's obvious material gain to be had from taking other people's things and labor without consequence and it's far easier to plot the lines of history if you think that the racist bullshit is the justification rather than the cause. I’m not sure if I’m naive or sophisticated, perhaps a bit of both. I base my ideas of rationality when it comes to race on John Rawls Veil of Ignorance, and from personal experience growing up in a racist place watching the hate and otherization destroy people’s mental health (both the people on the receiving end and the people doing the racism).
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:53
|
|
|
Gringostar posted:i don’t know, you could make the analogy that being probated/banned is being put in jail and being permabanned is being murdered by the state that analogy exists, but being probed/banned/permad has no effect on the site whatsoever. being jailed or murdered by the state means money is going to have to exchange hands and paperwork is gonna have to be filed. there's a tangible effect
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:54
|
|
|
Let people argue about China. The mods don't need to establish their line on Xinjiang. People don't get banned for their sentiments on Western Sahara, Tigray, or plenty of other current conflicts.Flavius Aetass posted:However it's harder to defend the central government taking a stand on what is or is not authentic Uyghur Muslim culture vs insidious foreign radical Saudi Muslim culture, especially when they seem to be taking pretty harsh measures to crack down on the latter, and since the latter is really closer to a traditional orthodox Muslim theology than the kind of laid back Sufi-influenced Islam that central Asian Muslims have followed for centuries. this post reveals the next level of the Xinjiang discussion, which is debating Islamic theology.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:54
|
|
|
Serf posted:that analogy exists, but being probed/banned/permad has no effect on the site whatsoever. being jailed or murdered by the state means money is going to have to exchange hands and paperwork is gonna have to be filed. there's a tangible effect this can only be assumed if mods didn’t have reports to read or a mod forum to post in also the cost to re-reg
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:57
|
|
|
Gringostar posted:is anyone in cspam not actively calling out what the us is doing along it’s southern boarder to migrants genocide? The econ thread I got probed was derailed because some d&d poster made a "lul genocide" comment. It took a few hours for someone to take that bait but the thread broke down into projection and poo poo flinging. It was purely ideological and there was no discussion because everyone already firmly made up their minds. This is how it started. Thorn Wishes Talon posted:china is going to gently caress us very hard and they won't even have to lift a finger to do it Accretionist posted:Uncle Xi, my country yearns for leadership Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Uncle Xi's idea of leadership is to genocide dissenters though, so you're gonna have to be on your best behavior! Maybe I am just imagining it, but to me it seems like some poster from America getting a bit defensive and the whole derail wasn't in good faith from the start. So I don't see how you can expect everyone to make effort good faith posts all the time when one side just makes dumb poo poo posts and you get probed for disagreeing with them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:59
|
|
|
Gringostar posted:this can only be assumed if mods didn’t have reports to read or a mod forum to post in well the experience here is that mods just see the words "genocide denial" and hit the probe/ban button, so we can't say they're doing much work. and they're volunteers so its not like they have any real stake in it also why would you pay money to re-reg
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 21:59
|
|
|
Atrocious Joe posted:Let people argue about China. The mods don't need to establish their line on Xinjiang. People don't get banned for their sentiments on Western Sahara, Tigray, or plenty of other current conflicts. it just so happens this sudden concern for what people are allowed to discuss on China lines up with not being able to turn on the news or listen to NPR or BBC without hearing about Chinese authoritarianism
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:00
|
|
|
Atrocious Joe posted:Let people argue about China. The mods don't need to establish their line on Xinjiang. People don't get banned for their sentiments on Western Sahara, Tigray, or plenty of other current conflicts. Without being able to really show mass killings, I feel this is absolutely where things will move. Cultural genocide was how it was "originally" framed to me, and it slowed morphed into genocide. I have no idea if those were the first claims out there, but that was the wording I first became familiar.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:01
|
|
|
thotsky posted:some mod said C-SPAM has to be palatable to a liberal consensus elsewhere in the forums I would say it "has to" be palatable to a liberal consensus in the same way that a new enterprise "has to" be profitable. It's not good, it's just how things happen to work. The broader SA community isn't going to allow a Stormfront subforum or something, even though in theory liberal principles of free speech demand that we give the Klan its day in court. Likewise, communist apologia is constrained by the forums Overton window whether it ought to be or not. Ideally, the consensus can be moved left over time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:03
|
|
|
Hairy Marionette posted:This is mostly true, but our racism isn’t why we’ve got so much economic power. Our unscathed industrial base post WW2 is the cause. America was a backwaters until WW2 left us with a vast economic advantage over the rest of the world. We’d all be happier and healthier in this country if we weren’t so racist. Racism helps partially resolved some of the contradictions of class rule. For example, racism in a workplace can hinder organizing on a shop floor, which hurts the workers but helps the owner suppress wages. Racism helped justify seizing land from indigenous groups, and why Black people could be enslaved and then forced into ghettos, both of which built US industrial and economic power. Racism does exist outside of strictly economic relations, but it was cultivated and unleashed to help secure capitalist rule. Viewing it as only a disease ignores how it was used to create and sustain the current class system.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:03
|
|
|
Hairy Marionette posted:I’m not sure if I’m naive or sophisticated, perhaps a bit of both. I base my ideas of rationality when it comes to race on John Rawls Veil of Ignorance, and from personal experience growing up in a racist place watching the hate and otherization destroy people’s mental health (both the people on the receiving end and the people doing the racism). Yeah, I'm familiar. It's fine to put forward the old Platonic claim that doing evil is not good for you, but to say you don't understand the motivation is very naive. To be unable to conceive of how someone would find evil appealing is to be unable to predict the actions of those you consider to be irrational. You could say that's what irrationally is, but I've found that people are irrational in very consistent ways.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:05
|
|
|
Atrocious Joe posted:Racism helps partially resolved some of the contradictions of class rule. For example, racism in a workplace can hinder organizing on a shop floor, which hurts the workers but helps the owner suppress wages. Racism helped justify seizing land from indigenous groups, and why Black people could be enslaved and then forced into ghettos, both of which built US industrial and economic power. Racism can have material benefits for a select few. It does not make for a society worth living in, however. There are more measures to life than GDP, and it is in that sense that racism is destroying my country.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:06
|
|
|
Kindest Forums User posted:A good thought experiment is to think about the alternative, if China completely severed from the region. Xinjiang would become its own country and closed off from China with border controls. What would become of the Uyghur population? Would they be able to thrive as the rest of the world develops? Maybe? Would they even be able to retain their original identity and culture, considering the rising influence of radical Islamists in that area? I wonder what Xinjiang would like if the west didn't destabilize the middle east and radicalize a huge portion of muslims..... Something the moderate rebels guys pointed out on this week's episode is that the sanctions on the Xinjiang province would eventually cause the Uighur population to move in order to find things like jobs. People also cite declining birthrates as evidence of there being genocide, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to also point to fleeing populations.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:06
|
|
|
Kindest Forums User posted:A good thought experiment is to think about the alternative, if China completely severed from the region. Xinjiang would become its own country and closed off from China with border controls. What would become of the Uyghur population? Would they be able to thrive as the rest of the world develops? Maybe? Would they even be able to retain their original identity and culture, considering the rising influence of radical Islamists in that area? I wonder what Xinjiang would like if the west didn't destabilize the middle east and radicalize a huge portion of muslims..... ngl this argument sounds very colonialist
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:08
|
|
|
Brain Candy posted:Yeah, I'm familiar. It's fine to put forward the old Platonic claim that doing evil is not good for you, but to say you don't understand the motivation is very naive. To be unable to conceive of how someone would find evil appealing is to be unable to predict the actions of those you consider to irrational. You could say that's what irrationally is, but I've found that people are irrational in very consistent ways. That’s a fair critique. People who engage in racism usually think they’re acting rationally. And they usually are acting consistently. But it’s also true that in most situations it’s possible to gain greater benefit through cooperation. It sometimes takes a lot of creativity to find the path to mutual benefit. And entrenched racism can make those mutual benefit plays socially infeasible. That’s one of the reasons racism is so destructive. It can be used as a force to ensure continued oppression by creating a social cost to non-racist behavior. Which is one of the reasons I no longer live in Grosse Pointe. That said, a society without racism will be, on average, richer than a society with racism, all other things being equal.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:15
|
|
|
The western governments and media have done their best the last few years to educate their people about Xinjiang. But why was this narration even pushed into the mainstream? Do you seriously want to argue that the US/Europe is suddenly very concerned about the treatment of a muslim ethnic group in China when they can't even look without disdain at their own muslim population? This narration is deliberately used as a weapon against China, same as all the other war mongering in the past. But that would not matter if there was clear evidence of genocide happening. Just because there is a western agenda in play doesn't mean China can't also be engaged in genocide. But as has been said before many times the actual evidence as presented by Falun Gong, Zenz and the state department is rather weak. Pointing out that almost all coverage goes back to the same ghouls and should not be trusted is not genocide denial. We don't have to prove that there is no genocide (how would you even do that), only that the evidence arguing for genocide is bullshit. Flavius you posted before that the economic situation in Xinjiang is worsening for Uighurs but according to the Chinese government poverty across all Xinjiang is falling, even among Uighurs (the largest ethnic group in Xinjiang after all). You can of course doubt the Chinese government but now who exactly is denying? As long as the discussion about this is only enforced one way you are enforcing the anti-China agenda whether you are conciously aware or not.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:15
|
|
|
Lostconfused posted:The econ thread I got probed was derailed because some d&d poster made a "lul genocide" comment. bolded the problem for you also lol if you expect everyone to make effort or good faith posts all the time or being upset about getting probated over the slightest thing in cspam cspam isn’t d&d which is both good and bad especially since the  serious politics forum is now actively discouraging actual debate and discussion on things like cultural genocide in xinjiang but that’s unfortunately an issue that cspam has zero control over
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:19
|
|
|
I think a forum for arguing about politics should give a very wide latitude for people to be "wrong" in their arguments without moderators intervening.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:19
|
|
|
Gringostar posted:bolded the problem for you Yeah the problem is that all of the above happened in a cspam thread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:22
|
|
|
Tajikistan is pretty interesting comparison to Xinjiang when it comes to policing of religious practices, partly because it literally borders the area. It's overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim, but practice of the religion is closely monitored by the government after a civil war with Islamist groups in the 1990s. I'm drawing from a US State Department report here, but lots of the claims echo what we hear about Xinjiang. https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-report-on-international-religious-freedom/tajikistan/ quote:Government officials continued to take measures they stated would prevent individuals from joining or participating in what they considered extremist organizations and continued to arrest and detain individuals suspected of membership in or supporting such banned opposition groups. Authorities continued a pattern of harassing women wearing hijabs and men with beards, and government officials again issued statements discouraging women from wearing “nontraditional or alien” clothing, including hijabs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:24
|
|
|
it is kind of funny that a thread about cspam moderation has already turned into a better discussion about xinjiang than 99% of what you can find on most of SA, on reddit, or twitter - to say nothing of traditional news sources
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:28
|
|
|
Lostconfused posted:Yeah the problem is that all of the above happened in a cspam thread. and? once again, cspam is cspam and expecting d&d “good faith posting” rules here is naive at best that d&d is stifling actual discussion about things because mods are curating opinions is the much larger problem but again that’s not something cspam has any control over
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 04:20 |
|
|
Atrocious Joe posted:this post reveals the next level of the Xinjiang discussion, which is debating Islamic theology. using general ignorance of islam, treating them as a monolith, has been immensely helpful for their propaganda campaign https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ramadan-china/exiles-angered-as-china-holds-beer-festival-in-muslim-county-idUSKBN0P20L620150622 quote:Dilxat Raxit, spokesman for the exiled group the World Uyghur Congress, condemned the event.  https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1004892946045415424 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_in_China#Xinjiang
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 22:43
|
|