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Rime posted:Yeah fam, given my close family members are survivors of a cultural genocide here in ol' canuck land I get a bit touchy when I see people ardently flag-waving in support of Genocide, or hand waving it away as "necessary", or denying that it has been ramping up for over twenty years, because they think doing so is somehow "owning" the west. you are a literal ecofascist and have been called out numerous times because you support terrorizing developing nations. The fact that you admit to relentlessly snitching out posters to forums cops is just rich. You have to be one of the worst posters here.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:34
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Flavius Aetass posted:I agree that the mods should be taking a looser moderation role in this. I think I was coming down too hard and hamfisted before. I'm trying to think of a time in history when the narrative supporting intervention sounded something like this: "Even though I support the Vietnamese government, I hate their people, so we should invade immediately". It's impossible to separate criticism of China's government and racial prejudice/intervention when you're discussion is entirely based from facts and figures that are manufactured with the purpose of subjugating the Chinese people.
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Mar 24, 2021 21:02
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Hairy Marionette posted:It hasn’t really worked out so great for us. America is literally the most powerful place in the world and not one single person who enjoys her spoils are the original inhabitants of the land, or those that participated in the slave or slave-like labour of building the empire.
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Mar 24, 2021 21:11
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Rime posted:This is quite fairly offensive to the great many indigenous and slave-descendant individuals who have achieved success within the racially biased regimes of North America. Yes, clearly what I was talking about. Taking indigenous lands and enslaving labor was purely irrational then. All that bloodshed and hardwork just led to indigenous and black people enjoying the same access to wealth and power as the white man.
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Mar 24, 2021 21:18
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Raskolnikov38 posted:also the increasingly prevelant need for speaking mandarin or other chinese dialects over native lanaguges causing a decline in fluent speakers of the latter but i'm not sure where to draw the line on that between government mandate enforcement and the effects of a modern industrial state A good thought experiment is to think about the alternative, if China completely severed from the region. Xinjiang would become its own country and closed off from China with border controls. What would become of the Uyghur population? Would they be able to thrive as the rest of the world develops? Maybe? Would they even be able to retain their original identity and culture, considering the rising influence of radical Islamists in that area? I wonder what Xinjiang would like if the west didn't destabilize the middle east and radicalize a huge portion of muslims..... In this scenario, where Xinjiag is its own country. what would happen to young people that would want to integrate into the world economy? Wouldn't they have to move to China or the West where no one speaks Uyghur? How would they maintain their culture if they wanted to escape rural poverty (especially as climate change puts immense pressures on the region).
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Mar 24, 2021 21:41
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Flavius Aetass posted:ngl this argument sounds very colonialist Going by your train of thought, China's war on poverty is an enormous colonial project. Come to think of it, all of china is being genocided. I wonder how Xinjiang would be able to maintain its independence if it wasn't a "colony" of China. I'm not sure this massive country bordering Russia, Pakistan, Afghanistan India, and China would enjoy its development without the forces of outside interests.
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Mar 24, 2021 22:47
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Dustcat posted:You're not improving your case, lol. I mean, I'm just wondering what mode of development Xinjiang should take if it severs itself from China? Do you have any suggestions? Do you actually know if the Uighur population feel that their autonomy is threatened? Do you think the Xinjiang population would rather be under the sphere of influence that manages places like Kashmir, Pakistan, and Afghanistan? Or do you think Xinjiang can operate in total vacuum that is impenetrable from outside influence?
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Mar 24, 2021 22:58
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Dustcat posted:Seriously, when a neighboring/surrounding power absorbs an ethnic group, it's not gonna be pretty no matter what and regardless of the philosophies of the absorbing power, just don't pretend that they're doing it for the benefit of the group being absorbed. Yeah, I'm not saying that the China is doing this out of complete altruism (but you how do you know they are not? How do you know the they aren't a victim of a poorly thought out plan to reduce poverty and improve social cohesion) I'm just wondering what the alternatives are to urbanization into the Chinese economy. Everyone says its bad... But what are the alternatives?
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Mar 24, 2021 23:02
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Rime posted:"It's ok because we're lifting them out of poverty and civilizing them" . Uhhh, dude, people did not colonize America under the excuse of lifting poverty, or even civilizing (iirc the civilizing part was just a justification for the church).
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Mar 24, 2021 23:06
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Is the excuse America used to plow the First Nations under, famjam. Maybe take the ideological blinders off and realize you are stanning for that which you so frequently express disgust towards.
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://about.skechers.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/SKECHERS-USA-STATEMENT-UYGHURS-March-2021.pdf It would be interesting to see how this plays out with any potential sanctions. If American capital is willing to counter the State Department narrative, either forced labor isn't actually happening. Or American Capital is willing to lie for the sake of their established factories and to support the Chinese narrative. If these factories were actually genocidal forced labour factories, and the state department was foaming through their mouths to take down China, it would seem strange that companies would be resistant to pulling out. It would be like Exxon publicly stating that the Baath party are actually super chill and we shouldn't sanction & destroy Iraq. Anyways, if American companies are unwilling to toe the state department line, then there is a divergence between american capital and the state. No matter what is happening in Xinjiang, this would be unprecedented I think. Or Sketchers might just be an isolated incident and we could see other western companies going the opposite direction soon enough.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:05
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I am wildly unaware of any concentration of islamic extremists in xinjiang that would, even if scaled up by a couple orders of magnitude, justify anything close to the scale of imprisonment they've faced. While I've seen uighur names turn up in various records from jihadi groups in the middle east, that concerns maybe dozens of names and the names are disproportionately more common there because they keep floating around because China has resisted ever taking them back going back at least two decades now You make a really good point, and you are probably right. But how do you know that is not in spite of or because of Chinese policy? The Chinese are not blind, and they have witnessed the rise of the mujahideen (who both United States AND China!!! actually helped during the sino-soviet split), Al-qaeda, and ISIS literally on their borders. Islamic extremism has been used countless times as Proxy warfare against antagonists groups/nations. I'm sure they're spooked that xinjiang will be the next proxy battlefield - which almost always leads to complete immiserating and destruction. How do you respond to it? I'm sure there's a way to thread the needle. Give the Uyghurs the resources and autonomy so that they are empowered to retain their culture AND fight against extremism.... But that is not what happened. We are seeing a knee-jerk response and a heavy handed approach. I'm sure there was a better way to approach the extremism and integration of the Xinjiang population into the world economy, and I'm sure there were a lot worse approaches....
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Mar 26, 2021 06:05
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:Okay. We agree that the US manufactured a reason to invade Iraq. At that time, Iraq had 26 million people, no nukes, and no strong economic ties to the US. In what world is the exact same playbook used to invade a nuclear-armed nation with 1.4 billion people that manufactures most of your consumer goods and has trillions of dollars of Western companies' assets inside its borders? This is exactly why I'm calling you an apologist, because you dream up this bullshit scenario ('the US is going to invade on the pretext of stopping genocide!') to argue that reports of a real, existing genocide are just like reports of nonexistent WMDs. This end-of-history bullshit is so loving stupid. The entire post-wwii 20th century is characterized as conflicts between two nuclear armed superpowers. Countless proxy wars, millions dead, entire countries left to ruins. And this was during a time when the bloodthirsty American administartions were slightly more competent sociopaths than the unhinged lunatics like Trump and the senile sundowners like Biden (at least reagan didn't start his term completely off the books). Yeah, China is closely intertwined economically with the rest of the world. But they are not any closer intertwined diplomatically or culturally. And American hegemony sees them as an enemy just as much as they did the Soviets. And the americans will absolutely flail to maintain their hegemony, just as they have countless times before - but this time it will be far more destructive.
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Mar 26, 2021 17:19
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BougieBitch posted:What will we accept as adequate clarity? At what point are we willing to actually call it genocide? Does this ruling also apply to WWII, the Armenian genocide, the genocide of Native Americans, the genocide of aboriginal people in Australia, or literally any other context or situation? The fact that there's inadequate documentation isn't incidental, but intentional, and any statement about how many people died in any of these other situations is also the result of a lot of guesswork and estimation, but no one denies that they happened in the modern day (with the exception of the Armenian genocide, natch). If you don't establish at what point you are willing to accept that "this is actually bad enough that I don't think we can get away with saying it isn't genocide", then you have created a situation where some number of people will continue to deny that it is happening well past the point where everyone except China is acknowledging it. hindsight goes both ways. You can say the same thing regarding manufacturing consent and the lead up to the many wars and violence inflicted by western nations. How much clarity do you need before you realize the west lies about this poo poo all the time.
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Mar 26, 2021 21:08
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