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I want to have a discussion with the forum at large about this issue without it breaking down into a pissing contest or derailing existing threads. First, a few rules that will be enforced: 1. This isn't a thread to be a dickhead 2. This isn't a thread to shitpost 3. This isn't a thread for personal attacks 4. Post whatever evidence or opinions you want to on the matter, so long as you follow the first three rules. You will not be probated for genocide denial or anything here. I know a lot of you have been upset at the way mods have handled talking about Xinjiang lately and I think it's something we ought to hash out and decide as a forum how we want to handle it. There are a few points I wanted to start with from my perspective on the issue: 1. As I've looked into this more I've realized that there is a lot more disinfo about it in mainstream press from Western anti-communist sources than I first thought. I think that I've attributed a lot of denial to knee-jerk reflexive defense of actual existing communism and/or anti-imperialism without considering that it may be a more targeted and legitimate response to bogus claims. 2. I'm not sure that I agree with the free speech arguments that some posters have been using, saying that the thread should sort it all out by accepting or rejecting opinions internally. C-SPAM has never been a free speech zone and has always been a place where certain opinions are simply not welcome. To me, the emotional reaction I have to people saying China is not at the least severely repressing Uyghurs is that it reeks of War on Terror anti-Muslim bullshit with the proper nouns switched. But I understand that many smell the same War on Terror bullshit when people insist on the opposite. 3. I am just a volunteer moderator on a forum I have been posting in for 5 years. I am not trying to toe the CIA line or whatever the gently caress. I've been acting nearly exclusively on reports from other C-SPAM users for "genocide denial" so I'm really just trying to see how the forum thinks about acting on reports like that. Please post what you think about the issue and whether you think C-SPAM moderators should draw the line anywhere when people are discussing it.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:48
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commielingus posted:Unban a Loving dog pls this isn't the thread for this Victory Position posted:I guess I can lead off with a simple question: are the reports received inline with the people posting in the thread, or is there an invisible and aggrieved audience calling out allegations with dead silence? People can lurk threads, sure, but there's something off when the people not participating are the ones calling the shots. I'd say it's mostly lurkers but plenty are active in other threads. I agree with you in principle but there's certainly a line to be drawn somewhere wrt a particular thread vs the rest of the forum. I'm not saying that's the case here but I'm hoping we can come to an understanding about it by opening it up to forum as a whole.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:00
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The Oldest Man posted:No but the China rule is not solely the province of the CSPAM mods so this conversation not addressing the wider site is part of what makes me skeptical that it's really all that honest to begin with. I mean, we decide what rules should be enforced in this forum and although the admins have in the past expressed a lot of dislike toward, for instance, homex's China opinions, we can still resist efforts to enforce something like that here if it's apparent that the forum as a whole agrees.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:02
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really queer Christmas posted:Oh not in Kunduz no, it's a Bukharan expression I see
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Mar 24, 2021 20:07
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boo boo bear posted:mods are stuck in a snoo/lk mindset. it can't be salvaged and why the one good mod had to walk away. What do you mean by that?
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Mar 24, 2021 20:14
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Rime posted:Yeah fam, given my close family members are survivors of a cultural genocide here in ol' canuck land I get a bit touchy when I see people ardently flag-waving in support of Genocide, or hand waving it away as "necessary" because they think doing so is somehow "owning" the west. Yeah this is essentially the root of the issue as I see it, so whether you like Rime or not I'd like this to be addressed by the people arguing in favor of less moderation.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:18
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Ferrinus posted:I've put these two paragraphs in both the generic communism thread and the eurasia thread but i'm going to repost them here because they seem to have been useful to people. These are two posts a friend of mine made on another discussion board to criticize and contextualize what's happening in Xinjiang and also Mongolia. Sorry for the lack of caps etc: This is a good post, thank you.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:23
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Ferrinus posted:Defense or even contextualization of the CCP's policies in various ethnic autonomous regions isn't a matter of "this genocide is good, actually" or "though this genocide is regrettable, it is a price we have to pay for progress", it's "this isn't a genocide." In fact, for many, the Soviet and Chinese models autonomy and targeted economic development for ethnic minorities is precisely an alternative and antidote to the flatly genocidal policies of such liberal capitalist states as Canada. It's important to separate what's happening due to "progress" and what's happening due to top-down direct repression. The widening income gaps and worsening situation for the rural Uyghur population is largely due to the state-sponsored influx of Han immigrants to the cities, poorly coordinated industrial agriculture in desert regions, and the general weakening of the nominal Uyghur autonomous government in favor of the Xinjiang Construction and Production Corps and the CCP. I don't think this phenomenon is any worse than how minorities are treated in capitalist countries, possibly better even. However it's harder to defend the central government taking a stand on what is or is not authentic Uyghur Muslim culture vs insidious foreign radical Saudi Muslim culture, especially when they seem to be taking pretty harsh measures to crack down on the latter, and since the latter is really closer to a traditional orthodox Muslim theology than the kind of laid back Sufi-influenced Islam that central Asian Muslims have followed for centuries. Flavius Aetass has issued a correction as of 20:40 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 20:37
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Kindest Forums User posted:you are a literal ecofascist and have been called out numerous times because you support terrorizing developing nations. The fact that you admit to relentlessly snitching out posters to forums cops is just rich. You have to be one of the worst posters here. don't post like that here, please
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Mar 24, 2021 20:39
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THS posted:People have already posted sources from Grayzone regarding how suspect the reporting is on Xinjiang. If Rime wants to try and argue that the evidence is not largely US State Dept propaganda backed by a right-wing Christian fundamentalist, they should try that instead of using the Report button as a cudgel. Rime is a weirdly violent poster though, so maybe they report over posting because they know they will come off as unhinged. Regardless, no one is denying there is repression occurring. I agree that the mods should be taking a looser moderation role in this. I think I was coming down too hard and hamfisted before. I'm not sure I agree that the rising tensions and sinophobia are really relevant here though. I think C-SPAM posters can separate criticism of China's government from anti-Chinese prejudice or a desire for intervention.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:47
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comedyblissoption posted:the only thing that should be punished is if someone says oppressing the uighurs is good Can everyone live with this?
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Mar 24, 2021 21:12
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Dustcat posted:That could explain some of the vitriol, because I for one thought we were talking about cultural genocide the whole time, not extermination camps. right, I was going to say that
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Mar 24, 2021 21:12
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Raskolnikov38 posted:also the increasingly prevelant need for speaking mandarin or other chinese dialects over native lanaguges causing a decline in fluent speakers of the latter but i'm not sure where to draw the line on that between government mandate enforcement and the effects of a modern industrial state that's where I'm at there's supposed to be quotas and such in the XAR to protect the Uyghur language and its speakers but IIRC less and less jobs are falling under the categories the law applies to
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Mar 24, 2021 21:19
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THS posted:How are you going to come to a conclusion anyway. Also note that goodwill is threadbare so we can “live with this” without confidence moderation will be reasonable. We don’t have a choice but to live with the historically very good moderation of this webzone. this is really bordering on needless cynicism and distrust imo, but I'll take that as a reserved yes
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Mar 24, 2021 21:24
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Gonna have to post this in the mod forums my dude, not in here the other C-SPAM mods are on board with reevaluating this and none of this applies to any other forum admins are not going to come in and start banning people for something we said was allowed
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Mar 24, 2021 21:25
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THS posted:lol ok. keep the thread going for now though. the thread has only been up a couple hours, not a lot of people have had a chance to offer their opinions, and I have been one of the top posters. I’m also one of the worst posters, so get some more feedback yeah I'm going to step away for a while and see where the discussion goes from here before talking to the other mods about how to respond in full
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Mar 24, 2021 21:29
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Kindest Forums User posted:A good thought experiment is to think about the alternative, if China completely severed from the region. Xinjiang would become its own country and closed off from China with border controls. What would become of the Uyghur population? Would they be able to thrive as the rest of the world develops? Maybe? Would they even be able to retain their original identity and culture, considering the rising influence of radical Islamists in that area? I wonder what Xinjiang would like if the west didn't destabilize the middle east and radicalize a huge portion of muslims..... ngl this argument sounds very colonialist
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Mar 24, 2021 22:08
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from what little i do understand about economic development in Xinjiang, it's less like you'd think a communist country should be and more like gentrification
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Mar 24, 2021 23:10
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people really need to calm down and act like they are in a thread with "don't be a dickhead" as its #1 rule or I'm gonna have to give out some time outs
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Mar 25, 2021 00:17
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go listen to the first RATM album, goddamn
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Mar 25, 2021 01:52
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well the shoe factory has convinced me
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Mar 25, 2021 13:13
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Relevant Tangent posted:Would you put your family into the camps in China? what camps tho legitimately asking. do you know anything about these camps?
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Mar 25, 2021 15:21
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Relevant Tangent posted:are you saying they don't exist? No
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Mar 25, 2021 15:29
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Raskolnikov38 posted:so just to summarize before i gently caress off to make lunch and play video games yeah that seems right
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Mar 25, 2021 19:07
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Serf posted:the efforts to end the human rights abuses by the us are nonexistent and a cover for escalating sinophobic rhetoric. the united states of america does not give a single poo poo about a muslim minority on the other side of the planet except to use them as a wedge for building an international coalition against china's rising economic power i agree with this but disagree that it's relevant to the discussion of whether genocide is happening
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Mar 25, 2021 19:14
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really queer Christmas posted:
I'm staying out of it. Please don't post that I got mad.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:29
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oxsnard posted:nah, Roth was cool about it and I think the pending action may have to do with Rime I don't understand why people are talking about a pending action. Did a mod say something? If it's what I think you're talking about it's nothing about this thread.
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Mar 25, 2021 23:58
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:anarcho-lib-statedepartmentalist thought 
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Mar 26, 2021 00:18
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Yinlock posted:Yeah from what little information we've been able to confirm China are just being dicks rather than genocidal lunatics like the USA I think this is a bit over the line in minimizing it
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Mar 26, 2021 00:20
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commielingus posted:Amazing how people think indoctrination = genocide many liberals believe that, in fact
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Mar 26, 2021 00:22
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AnimeIsTrash posted:It is wild that Pener left for BNR, he was a good poster imo. I can't say I blame anyone for leaving at the time. There are a lot of posters I wish would come back.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:23
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China believes, perhaps cynically perhaps not, that they are preserving Uyghur culture by ridding Xinjiang of "foreign radical" Islam that threatens the much more... liberal (for lack of a better word) Uyghur Islam. Like most central Asian countries, strict adherence to or even widespread literacy of the Koran is a modern phenomenon. Not saying it's right to monitor the religious beliefs of an ethnic group obviously.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:34
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Dolphin posted:how do y'all feel about tiananmen square, forgivable oopsie by a younger ccp or state department fabrication? ugh please don't
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Mar 26, 2021 01:07
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THS posted:why cant you get over that im not just talking about cspam but am discussing wider perceptions in society. you seem to have real difficulty with this no matter how many ways i explain it to you I think some of the breakdown in communication is that more casual C-SPAM posters (trump thread, etc) sometimes feel like they are being talked to as if they are Rachel Maddow fans by posters in more explicitly political threads
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Mar 26, 2021 01:38
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:another thing is that there is actually a lot of internal uyghur support for the anti-radicalization efforts. not absolute of course and there is definitely resentment brewing but you gotta remember that "radical islamic terrorism" wasnt some dogwhistle or abstraction in xinjiang like we think of it in the US, this was at their doorstep, they actually were being regularly attacked, terrorized, and these programs have produced favorable results. hey i can tell everybody right now that regardless of C-SPAM mods' opinions this is the kind of post that will have people baying for permas don't justify whatever you want to call what is going on in xinjiang like this or it's going to cause problems for all of us i don't care if you're right or wrong about this. be careful how you talk about it
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Mar 26, 2021 03:38
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Dolphin posted:I'm having trouble finding it, does anyone know what china considers "extremism?" from the research i did into the topic several years ago from academic anthropology sources, it can be essentially what is considered orthodox Islam in many other Muslim-majority countries it's a very crude analogy but imagine that Uyghurs traditionally practiced acoustic guitar praise song christianity and most people weren't really all that religious but they still identified as christians and believed in god then some missionaries and access to education turned a lot of them into strict catholics
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Mar 26, 2021 03:45
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:im not justifying it, i even touched on the hosed up poo poo the cops will do to this end. Lostconfused posted:Could have just said this was always about thought police. it is what it is, i'm just saying 
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Mar 26, 2021 03:46
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Baykin posted:Could you explain further what you mean about being careful about it? I have no idea if what was said is even remotely true, but if it is, how could the feelings of the actual population being affected not matter? I mean the admins took a look at this thread today because they were very concerned and the thing that satisfied them was that people were mostly saying "we know really bad things are happening there but we doubt the veracity of the claims that there are literal death camps, etc." If they had instead seen a bunch of people justifying it and saying maybe it works that qcs thread would have turned out very differently and regardless of whether that's what F Stop Fitzgerald meant, that's what it would appear like
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Mar 26, 2021 03:53
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THS posted:i think we should copy the “post my favorites” subforum and everyone gets their own thread about xinjiang that only they can post in it's only slightly more masturbatory than posting in a regular thread
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Mar 26, 2021 04:21
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:gently caress im gonna get banned arent i 
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Mar 26, 2021 04:32
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