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I don’t think there is any way to setup a poll of active CSPAM posters that wouldn’t be abused, but anecdotally the active participants of the threads do not have an issue with the topic as it was being discussed, or at least do not consider banning it as being appropriate even if they disagree. If someone from the Trump thread or D&D or GBS can’t handle a discussion of China that doesn’t obsessively manufacture consent for the new cold war with China, they should probably not read the LF or China threads in CSPAM. I really think the mods, including Flavius, have been so flippant and arbitrary on this issue to a degree that I do not really see value in having an “honest discussion” about this topic. I argued my points in the LF thread already. This is a private forum, though, and so all I can do is grovel - so I plead that you use your buttons less on this topic and generally. Moderation in a forum like this should be reserved for distinctly toxic actors who manage to make the entire forum about them and have no interest in contributing to discussion. It isn’t for enforcing a line. Lastly, you say you aren’t enforcing the “CIA line” - but anyone with an understanding of how ideology functions should know you don’t have to consciously do this when the mainstream coverage of China is as warped and pro-western as it is. FREE ALL CSPAM POLITICAL PRISONERS
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Mar 24, 2021 19:15
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There has been a large amount of banning and probating regarding Acceptable China Opinions in the last couple months. If you aren’t aware of that you probably aren’t in the discussions where this is occurring. That’s why this thread exists.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:20
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As a more general suggestion, probating or banning for mod sass, even when you think you are being jokey or cute, is probably the most efficient way to engage the Streisand-effect and in turn cause a lot of people to tell you to eat their rear end and cease engaging beyond throwing insults. Having a thicker skin in general is a good approach to moderating a forum. Causing hostility among a large section of the community makes your job harder, and you can’t blame how bad reactions to the CSPAM moderation have gotten on anyone but yourselves. BrutalistMcDonalds is the aforementioned example of a moderator who managed to not provoke people constantly.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:08
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Flavius Aetass posted:Yeah this is essentially the root of the issue as I see it, so whether you like Rime or not I'd like this to be addressed by the people arguing in favor of less moderation. People have already posted sources from Grayzone regarding how suspect the reporting is on Xinjiang. If Rime wants to try and argue that the evidence is not largely US State Dept propaganda backed by a right-wing Christian fundamentalist, they should try that instead of using the Report button as a cudgel. Rime is a weirdly violent poster though, so maybe they report over posting because they know they will come off as unhinged. Regardless, no one is denying there is repression occurring. Claims of cultural genocide shouldn’t be taken as some obvious undeniable Given, especially in the context of a mostly western forum at a time when the amount of anti-China state propaganda is truly staggering. There is a reason why the number of US citizens who believe China is the biggest threat to world peace has doubled in the last few years. So for CSPAM’s part, if discussion and questioning of this propaganda is labeled genocide denial, I think this is just intended to shut down discussion completely at a time of rapidly rising tensions and general sinophobia.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:40
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Flavius Aetass posted:I agree that the mods should be taking a looser moderation role in this. I think I was coming down too hard and hamfisted before. I do not think anyone is free of the wider cultural context and media atmosphere, not even the wise and hardbitten posters of CSPAM. A lot of propaganda is “concern trolling” for lack of a better word, designed to get those who think of themselves as more enlightened and culturally “liberal” on board with the imperial project. This is why so much of it is couched in terms of human rights, preventing genocide, etc. - such that if you question the veracity you appear monstrous.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:51
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Mar 24, 2021 21:02
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Flavius Aetass posted:Can everyone live with this? How are you going to come to a conclusion anyway. Also note that goodwill is threadbare so we can “live with this” without confidence moderation will be reasonable. We don’t have a choice but to live with the historically very good moderation of this webzone.
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Mar 24, 2021 21:20
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Flavius Aetass posted:this is really bordering on needless cynicism and distrust imo, but I'll take that as a reserved yes lol ok. keep the thread going for now though. the thread has only been up a couple hours, not a lot of people have had a chance to offer their opinions, and I have been one of the top posters. I’m also one of the worst posters, so get some more feedback otoh a lot of people might not bother giving feedback because they don’t think it actually changes the moderation. the fact that you don’t understand the cynicism and distrust doesn’t inspire confidence in moderator self-criticism and an actual shift going forward
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Mar 24, 2021 21:27
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Atrocious Joe posted:Let people argue about China. The mods don't need to establish their line on Xinjiang. People don't get banned for their sentiments on Western Sahara, Tigray, or plenty of other current conflicts. it just so happens this sudden concern for what people are allowed to discuss on China lines up with not being able to turn on the news or listen to NPR or BBC without hearing about Chinese authoritarianism
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Mar 24, 2021 22:00
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it is kind of funny that a thread about cspam moderation has already turned into a better discussion about xinjiang than 99% of what you can find on most of SA, on reddit, or twitter - to say nothing of traditional news sources
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Mar 24, 2021 22:28
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to draw a comparison to another axe i like to grind, the use of the term genocide is like the use of the term “coup” for 1/6. if one truly believes that the US was inches away from a fascist coup, then it is easier to then justify repressive measures, patriot act 2, and social media censorship in favor of democrats - which is why the coup rhetoric has been pushed so hard by democratic leadership - it helps them gain power and shores up their base. it also helps distract from their internal problems and dissatisfaction from progressive factions within their own party similarly, if xinjiang is a genocide, then what can be justified to stop it? almost anything, i would think. in the last day the US and EU have introduced sanctions over the issue. does anyone honestly believe these sanctions will cause China to back down? are these sanctions actually being put in place out of a concern for people in xinjiang? how much more likely is it that this is whipping up hysteria and inflating chinese state assimilation for very cynical foreign policy ends? if it’s genocide, then the west should probably start arming resistance groups in xinjiang to help them stop their own genocide. these sanctions won’t be enough, so we will need to increase the pressure on the fronts of taiwan and HK. for that to be taken seriously, there has to be a credible deterrence to the growing chinese military, more missiles, fighters, ships. we have to build an alliance against china to stop their horrific human rights abuses in xinjiang, tibet, HK, inner mongolia. we have to support xinjiang freedom fighters i believe the intent of the recent rapid increase in media and government focus on china is 1) to distract americans from domestic problems by focusing on an external bad guy, and even more dangerous 2) manufacture consent for escalating conflict and what could ultimately turn into a real war, either a proxy war, maybe some kind of bloody sectarian conflict within xinjiang, or if enough mistakes are made, a real all out war between the west and china
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Mar 24, 2021 23:21
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Dustcat posted:the 1/6 assault absolutely was a coup attempt, just a very poorly organized one, but the odds of it succeeding weren't zero lol
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Mar 24, 2021 23:34
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it’s amazing to look at the extreme increase in focus on china in the last few years, the last year, hell the last month, and say something like it’s the “usual dominionist and other conservative idiots, and the MIC looking for more funding” - it’s funny as hell to completely overstate a fake thing: the chance of a successful coup on 1/6, while ignoring a very observable real thing: a massive rise in media stories and western anti-china rhetoric to manufacture a new cold war with china dustcat your brain is very murky and it rules
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Mar 24, 2021 23:39
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normal poo poo: 
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Mar 24, 2021 23:44
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Gringostar posted:im glad we can all agree that right wing reactionaries pose zero threat see and this is why it’s a good analogy - because no one would say that 1/6 was “good” or that reactionaries pose zero threat, just like no one thinks what is happening in xinjiang is a Good. but it is the degree to which you think there is a threat or how close we were from Dictator For Life Trump or the relative scale of state repression on the level of assimilation vs. cultural genocide vs. death camps which determines how accurate a view you probably have of the world, what a reasonable response to the situation in question is, etc. shouldnt we be rooting for federal cops clamping down on domestic terror if reactionary forces are about to impose the American Reich? as well, shouldnt we be looking to the lesser evil of the west to stop a genocide in progress?
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Mar 24, 2021 23:49
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Gringostar posted:im sure a global pandemic that originated in china has literally no bearing on these numbers at all you really don’t think there is increasing media coverage over xinjiang and a certain narrative gaining steam over the past months?
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Mar 24, 2021 23:50
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liberals, in MY FORUM? its more likely than you think
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Mar 24, 2021 23:54
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it’s because it seems really absurd on its face to not see that in the context of China starting to outpace the US economy, and questions of challenging US hegemony, that there isn’t a concurrent rise in the US going completely insane over this on a level it didn’t before. in 2008 China didn’t have a larger economy by some measures than the US. it really seems nuts to look at social media, traditional media, and public attitudes at this point in time, and try to argue that there hasn’t been a rapid increase in both the amount of reporting on China, and an increase in the tenor of how big a threat this is. https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1372203536579133443?s=20 https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1372205044552986624?s=20 https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1372209559117295619?s=20
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Mar 25, 2021 00:05
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Gringostar posted:considering the spike started to occur after 2016 i can’t think of a single other explanation i dont understand, anti-china rhetoric doesnt count if it comes from the guy who won the presidency? have you also ignored that the democratic party has taken great pains to appear Even Tougher on China? and what is the use, exactly, in trying to artificially separate that some of this rise in anti-china rhetoric is attributable to covid - does that make it less important? do you see it going away soon? there is a lot of media focus on xinjiang, hong kong, taiwan, and the entire asia pivot occurring. what is the point in denying all of this?
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Mar 25, 2021 00:12
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Gringostar posted:cspam: a known bastion of love for the democratic party im not even talking about democrats good or bad, this is about an increasingly negative media focus overall from both wings of the capitalist party, and both sides of the media - everything from marketplace morning report with kai rhysdal to alex jones. you are making serious errors here in thinking
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Mar 25, 2021 00:15
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Gringostar posted:do you seriously loving think cspam likes the democratic party? whoosh god drat holy poo poo
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Mar 25, 2021 00:16
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it seems like an extremely simple observation backed up by polls i posted that general attitudes toward china have been worsening well before covid, and it seems extremely obvious that an imperial power on the decline relative to a rising one is going to increase hostile rhetoric toward its competitor. am i really going insane? none of this seems the least bit controversial to me!
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Mar 25, 2021 00:19
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Gringostar posted:im not the one thinking that anyone in cspam actually subscribes to the notion that corporate or right wing media is good what are you talking about? i am not making a value judgement i am pointing out relative increases in rhetoric and tone, and in negative public perceptions over time.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:20
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Chomskyan posted:The coronavirus did have a hand in raising animosity against China, but specifically because western politicians and media weaponized that fact to stir up a sinophobic reaction. It’s obvious to anyone not brain dead that China isn’t to blame for a novel virus originating in its territory. And despite much bluster from from the western press, China was able to provide information about the virus to the US and Europe, up to and including its genetic sequencing, early enough to give a real edge to those countries in their response. But those states have utterly failed in their response and thus seek to scapegoat China yeah i really fail to see how a combination of trade war / unfair currency manipulation xinjiang genocide covid hong kong protests pivot to asia / military focus on “protecting our allies” aren’t all part of the same narrative of the US absolutely flipping out that we might (will) lose the “top spot” in the world economy, and then in technology, and then in military capability. if you don’t think that hostile rhetoric in the media has caused a manufacturing consent toward confronting china now - wait a few years! yet i suspect some people will still say stuff like “well I remember back in the day people were worried about china too.. so it’s probably basically the same thing now”
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Mar 25, 2021 00:30
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Gringostar posted:this literally has happened every time an economically dominant power has had its hegemony threaded and it’s bad! leftists should try to counter it so that we have some possibility of stopping a confrontation that could end Very Badly there is a real trend with some people of thinking that because something is “obvious” it shouldn’t be pointed out and emphasized. often the worst things are very obvious! yet somehow the ideology can become so thick and omnipresent that one ignores the obvious to their great detriment
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Mar 25, 2021 00:33
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Gringostar posted:i mean, yes? im mostly arguing against people denying the rhetoric is ramping up to begin with. but 2ndly, if you’re such a doomer why even care
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Mar 25, 2021 00:45
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Gringostar posted:i mean, literally no one in this thread has been denying that it’s been happening so i don’t know why you’d have to spiderhyphenman was sharing his anecdotal thoughts that it has not risen aside from anti-covid racism (and that nothing has changed regarding “china will take over the world” rhetoric since his high school days) - and you similarly attributed the rise to only covid and trump, 1) despite the public perception going far south way before that, and 2) despite the fact that covid being politicized by the american ruling class being highly relevant and hardly worth pointing out as something that makes that increasing hostility less important
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Mar 25, 2021 01:02
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why try to argue that covid is the main factor when its only been a factor the last year and there’s a whole kaleidoscope of anti-china narratives including, xinjiang, unfair trade, general unease at a rising non-white power, stealing technology, taiwan, hong kong protests, i could go on. i was arguing against imagining there was some aberration or that we should downplay the anti-china sentiment somehow because of covid or trump
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Mar 25, 2021 01:05
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I remember in 2012 when Obama called China the greatest geopolitical foe the United States has and that Mitt Romney was full of poo poo to say that he'd be tough on China. Everyone clapped. Americans never perceived China as an ally or even a neutral entity. i am arguing, backed by polls and increasing military tension, as well as cultural tension over china actually overtaking us economically, and covid, and xinjiang, that it is far worse in 2021 than whatever you remember in 2012
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Mar 25, 2021 01:08
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i really think the degree to which china has become public enemy number 1, as quickly as it has, is incredibly dangerous, incredibly bad, and it doesn’t matter if you don’t think it’s “surprising” or that “it’s how things go” or that “we are all doomed anyway”
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Mar 25, 2021 01:12
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it’s also dangerous to imagine you can’t go to war with a major trading partner. world powers are no more rational now than they were before world war 1. things can escalate in ways which seem irrational to detached analysis. a cold war will be bad for everyone, and don’t imagine that states aren’t capable of ruining what seems to be prosperous and money-making in favor of geopolitical brinksmanship and regular human folly
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Mar 25, 2021 01:17
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Can we please define this timescale? Because if I'm reading this chart right, what was the other poll i posted in that same post you just quoted. did you not earlier, just the last page, give someone poo poo for only quoting part of your post
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Mar 25, 2021 01:23
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THS posted:normal poo poo: SpiderHyphenMan posted:Also good job partially quoting a single sentence. That's definitely something someone operating in good faith does.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:24
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also why treat covid as an aberration that “explains” why the anti-china sentiment has gotten so badChomskyan posted:The coronavirus did have a hand in raising animosity against China, but specifically because western politicians and media weaponized that fact to stir up a sinophobic reaction. It’s obvious to anyone not brain dead that China isn’t to blame for a novel virus originating in its territory. And despite much bluster from from the western press, China was able to provide information about the virus to the US and Europe, up to and including its genetic sequencing, early enough to give a real edge to those countries in their response. But those states have utterly failed in their response and thus seek to scapegoat China
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Mar 25, 2021 01:27
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:To be explicit: you are absolutely correct that American's opinions on China have been greatly influenced as their economic power has become more undeniable. I do not think those numbers are cause to say that China has been the undisputed public enemy number one in America the way they are now prior to covid. well now they are public enemy number one, and if the media and government combined obsession with the perils and evils of china continue apace, we should pay very close attention this attempt to manufacture consent for conflict with china - and do our best to stridently oppose it however we can
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Mar 25, 2021 01:33
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and that includes pointing out when media narratives are being overblown, warped, manufactured, or whatever, as part of this attempt to increase public animosity toward china
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Mar 25, 2021 01:34
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Gringostar posted:honestly we should be skeptical of any media narrative that any state is pushing and instead try to find out what’s actually happening through the use of independent journalism or at least try to find as unbiased sources as possible prior to accepting anything as fact as a US citizen i have every reason to focus on my state above all else as the classic chomsky quote goes “My own concern is primarily the terror and violence carried out by my own state, for two reasons. For one thing, because it happens to be the larger component of international violence. But also for a much more important reason than that; namely, I can do something about it. So even if the U.S. was responsible for 2 percent of the violence in the world instead of the majority of it, it would be that 2 percent I would be primarily responsible for. And that is a simple ethical judgment. That is, the ethical value of one’s actions depends on their anticipated and predictable consequences. It is very easy to denounce the atrocities of someone else. That has about as much ethical value as denouncing atrocities that took place in the 18th century.” i see no need to draw an equivalence between us and china, because frankly there isn’t one, and even if there was, it would be the least convincing thing to do: throwing stones from this hosed up american glass house
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Mar 25, 2021 01:49
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that was such a bad mistake i actually feel bad for you
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Mar 25, 2021 01:51
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Gringostar posted:first of all, lol that there isn’t an equivalence between china and the us first of all, get back to me when china invades a sovereign nation, murders millions, destabilizes the entire region, and creates a refugee crisis of tens of millions fleeing. there is zero equivalence, america is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world, without any serious competition. no equivalence here. the degree to which the US causes more death and misery is unparalleled but secondly at no point did i say that we should never criticize china and i have repeatedly said what is going on in xinjiang, even though english sources that aren’t state propaganda are rare, is bad, so what part of that is going over my head? the united states should be the first and foremost concern for the evil it does, and for united states citizens there’s no question about priorities
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Mar 25, 2021 02:09
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Hot Karl Marx posted:Could Korea qualify or is that more defensive from NATO? is china the country that carpet bombed and killed a quarter of the total population
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Mar 25, 2021 02:12
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