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THS posted:I don’t think there is any way to setup a poll of active CSPAM posters that wouldn’t be abused, but anecdotally the active participants of the threads do not have an issue with the topic as it was being discussed, or at least do not consider banning it as being appropriate even if they disagree. If someone from the Trump thread or D&D or GBS can’t handle a discussion of China that doesn’t obsessively manufacture consent for the new cold war with China, they should probably not read the LF or China threads in CSPAM. These two points specifically are where I'm at. I don't post a lot about China but the degree to which the moderation team in general is willing to police the discussion about the US's ongoing genocidal projects according to the US government's propaganda line and police the discussion about China's ongoing genocidal projects also according to the US government's propaganda line makes it pretty hard to take the idea of an honest discussion on these topics seriously. But that said fewer mod/ik dunks on people shitposting about provable agitprop in the shitposting forum would be welcome.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:36
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Crusty Nutsack posted:when you talk about the mod team policing discussion about the US's genocide projects, are you talking about cspam mods? No but the China rule is not solely the province of the CSPAM mods so this conversation not addressing the wider site is part of what makes me skeptical that it's really all that honest to begin with.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:46
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Gringostar posted:why would anyone post in d&d though? This is a really good question, and fair.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:48
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QUEER FRASIER posted:I guess I don't get why U.S. propaganda about what's taking place inside China should be the mod-sponsored law of the land in this supposedly left wing-oriented forum, at least let us fight and argue about it maybe we'll all learn something new from doing so??? tbh it's probably because in general people who deny genocides are just the loving worst and like the first nazi sitting down in the bar if you let them they'll attract more nazis and then you end up with a community of posters resembling stormfront or the republican party or D&D
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Mar 24, 2021 19:53
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I looked away from this thread for a day and came back to 500 posts and Zenz apologism what the gently caress
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Mar 25, 2021 22:40
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Herstory Begins Now posted:It might be worthwhile to look up the main definitions used for genocide because you very emphatically do not need a literal holocaust-type extermination system to be a genocide by every major definition. Considering china itself has officially acknowleded that they're trying to stamp out uighur culture and forcibly assimilate them via re-education and occupational training, idk how you dispute that when that's what china is doing according to their own official account of the purposes of the camps... and it clearly meets the accepted definitions of genocide. So to provide context, I think forcible re-education by the state of some targeted cultural or ethnic minority is always genocide. That said, the British foreign secretary explicitly compared the Uighur genocide to the Nazis this week, though. It's being invoked as an explicit comparison in order to create an amplify a casus belli for economic and what I'm certain will be eventual military action against China, and a large part of that comparison is based on Zenz-sourced statistics that have no basis in reality as far as I've been able to tell. Do you think it's justifiable for the US and allies to amplify comparison to the Nazis to justify warfare against a nation-state rival even as the US carries out genocidal programs at home? Is it justifiable to discuss that disinformation campaign in service of arguing against a pro-war drumbeat advanced by US-funded propaganda outlets?
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Mar 26, 2021 00:23
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:It still seems to me like the defenses boil down to "Well the US is doing/has done worse", "it's not actual genocide, just cultural genocide", and "You're only paying attention to this because the state department wants you to". Does "the US state department is actively sponsoring a disinformation campaign about this atrocity in service of creating a pretext for military action against China" count as genocide denial to you?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:17
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Because if the argument is anything other than "the state department is making everything up" then I would argue the ball is still in China's court to stop whatever it is that is being done in the same way the rest of the world should rightfully poo poo on the US until we unfuck our border and our childhood poverty and homelessness and police violence Does "rightfully making GBS threads on" include economic sanctions against China? What about military action? Same for the US on both counts?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:57
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:I mean... yeah. In an ideal world the UN would be sanctioning the US for our human rights abuses. I'm not asking about an ideal world. I am asking do you, right now, support intervention by the US government against China to include economic sanctions and/or military action and do you support intervention by other world governments including China against the US to include economic sanctions and/or military action?
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Mar 26, 2021 02:00
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:No, I don't think I could support military intervention but I think sanctions would be justifiable, especially if they were aimed to specifically harm the political class. Presuming you mean individually targeted rather than broad-based economic sanctions - so you would support, for example, China colluding with European powers to prohibit travel and freeze or seize overseas assets of Joe Biden or Alejandro Mayorkas to exert pressure on the US government for the concentration camps the US is operating? Because that's the direct equivalent to sanctioning CCP officials with financial restrictions.
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Mar 26, 2021 02:08
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The Oldest Man posted:These two points specifically are where I'm at. I don't post a lot about China but the degree to which the moderation team in general is willing to police the discussion about the US's ongoing genocidal projects according to the US government's propaganda line and police the discussion about China's ongoing genocidal projects also according to the US government's propaganda line makes it pretty hard to take the idea of an honest discussion on these topics seriously. Crusty Nutsack posted:when you talk about the mod team policing discussion about the US's genocide projects, are you talking about cspam mods? The Oldest Man posted:No but the China rule is not solely the province of the CSPAM mods so this conversation not addressing the wider site is part of what makes me skeptical that it's really all that honest to begin with. Sorry about the quote spam but I wanted to resurrect this exchange from the very start of the thread because what I was talking about became immediately relevant to the thread. Flavius Aetass posted:I mean the admins took a look at this thread today because they were very concerned and the thing that satisfied them was that people were mostly saying "we know really bad things are happening there but we doubt the veracity of the claims that there are literal death camps, etc." We are - in my opinion - grappling with the problem of how to discuss ongoing human rights abuses in a foreign country under the constant fog cloud of disinformation and propaganda being emitted by our own government apparatus to justify the use of economic and military warfare against a state enemy, while simultaneously being inspected by the invisible Eye of Sauron for their definition of wrongthink. They see. They evaluate. They listen at least in part to a shitbird bad faith poster who runs to QCS and starts a brigade thread to call Flavius a genocide denier which, ok, lol, but anyway: Baykin posted:I know that this might ultimately be a really terrible idea overall, but could you maybe request in the mod forum for everybody to read and/or participate in this thread or maybe their own thread? I feel like this is important enough of an issue that management as a whole should probably have some discussion about. If that ultimately leads to mass purges of CSPAM then better sooner than later lol. It's pretty hard to suspend disbelief that this is an honest conversation when the only person from the mod team who is actually engaging with the issue is forced into looking over his shoulder constantly to avoid being vaporized while meanwhile it is straight up against ModLaw to call a concentration camp a concentration camp next door because too many nationalist zealots have a loving meltdown when you use accurate terminology? That seems unbelievably loving lovely and the worst part is that it's making it hard for me to call Flavius a piece of poo poo now, what the gently caress
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Mar 26, 2021 04:33
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Gringostar posted:the world should 100% be sanctioning the us for a ton of stuff though Sanctions are a good way to mildly inconvenience individual people or to weaponize poverty and starvation against a civilian population; there's no middle ground.
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Mar 26, 2021 22:39
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Admiral Ray posted:What? No it doesn't. My assumption of the worst case scenario is based on the fact that we already know China engages in human rights abuses, so why wouldn't they engage in something worse? I don't grant the government of China special dispensation just because they aren't the US. If they want to prove they aren't committing crimes against humanity, let them prove it. Wait what? You will automatically believe any country that already conducts human rights abuses or genocides is committing any other human rights abuses or larger/worse ones? Would you believe that China's leadership are feasting on human flesh nightly if someone got an op ed to that effect published in WaPo and then expect the Chinese goverment to disprove it?
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Mar 26, 2021 22:41
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oxsnard posted:but again this is all based on "what about the US?" There are zero cspam regulars who think america is good, or there shouldn't be and they would deserve mockery and/or bans for posting "actually america is good" memes. You can think that the US is worse than China without turning it into "china is good" There are people in this very thread who run cover for the US's concentration camps next door, fyi.
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Mar 26, 2021 23:22
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oxsnard posted:who? Because gently caress them and they should be mocked and or banned Dunno if I'm still under threat of orbital strike for Starting Cross Forums Drama but what the gently caress ever. China concentration camps: quote:What will we accept as adequate clarity? At what point are we willing to actually call it genocide? Does this ruling also apply to WWII, the Armenian genocide, the genocide of Native Americans, the genocide of aboriginal people in Australia, or literally any other context or situation? The fact that there's inadequate documentation isn't incidental, but intentional, and any statement about how many people died in any of these other situations is also the result of a lot of guesswork and estimation, but no one denies that they happened in the modern day (with the exception of the Armenian genocide, natch). If you don't establish at what point you are willing to accept that "this is actually bad enough that I don't think we can get away with saying it isn't genocide", then you have created a situation where some number of people will continue to deny that it is happening well past the point where everyone except China is acknowledging it. US concentration camps: quote:Okay, so are you going to address the argument about how you can tell how close or far apart people are based on the photos, cuz so far no one has made even a cursory attempt to explain how that is somehow more good or useful as evidence than actual numbers of people in detention in a particular place in comparison to the rated capacity under pandemic conditions. Eyeballing crowding based on where people are standing in a single snapshot is not useful or broadly indicative. The whole reason I linked to the article about news stories running wide-angle lens photos is because we have spent the whole past year seeing people do this exact thing, and when you add in the fact that "my inauguration was the biggest ever" was the first Trump admin lie I have no idea why people would ever trust a photo to be an accurate reflection of the distance between people. Don't settle for low-value evidence just because you don't have high-value evidence at hand, research and agitate for better reporting standards, more transparency from the admin, and then make a judgment once you have the facts rather than using incomplete evidence to draw low-certainty conclusions. Same poster.
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Mar 27, 2021 01:12
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oxsnard posted:I mean if that's d&d not much we can do besides laugh. I don't own the definition of who is A Real C-Spammer and who is not but if you post in this thread I think you're fair game and one of those posts was in this thread.
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Mar 27, 2021 01:16
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THS posted:the first post was from this thread gently caress you tankie i said it first
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Mar 27, 2021 01:18
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oxsnard posted:yeah my bad I must have glazed over it, it's trash rear end garbage and us border camps are objectively human rights violations, concentration camps and would be considered part of a genocidal campaign if the population they were targeting wasn't so large and ubiquitous, as race and ethnicity are clearly a huge part of why they exist and are ran the way they are I'm going to end this derail here but I think in practical terms the reason why people are comfortable calling Xinjiang a genocide while the US concentration camps where people have had their kids stolen, their reproductive organs removed, and been intentionally exposed to a lethal virus regardless of their legal status due to their membership in an undesirable ethnic, national, or cultural group are not "considered part of a genocidal campaign" has less to do with the population being large and ubiquitous and lot more to do with the fact that the NGOs and trans-national governmental organizations that drum up public attention against such things are beholden to dollars from the US foreign policy apparatus and largely staffed by an interchangeable set of US elites.
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Mar 27, 2021 01:41
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Some Guy TT posted:l to advance a talking point thats among the most popular on right wing twitter right now and im just thinking do you people have no shame at all Please don't repeat liberal talking points.
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Mar 27, 2021 02:26
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