C-SPAM moderation and Xinjiang: read rules in op

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > C-SPAM moderation and Xinjiang: read rules in op

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

I just wanted to chime in to say that this thread was very interesting to read. I don't have a problem with posters calling it genocide, especially if they also use the term (along with "concentration camps") to describe what the US has done and currently does. I do understand the frustration dealing with western media, especially since there aren't many publications who will call our governments treatment of native americans genocide. That absolutely was genocide waaaaaay above and beyond what China is accused of doing today

There's a fine line between getting upset about the word for its use as a one sided term to attack china and being one of those weirdos who can't admit china ever does very bad things. I will refrain from using the term in the future re: china but will push back when it turns into CHINA DID NO WRONG

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 23:50

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 12:41

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

Baykin posted:

im so excited now that we know we have some form of action from qcs awaiting admin approval.

nah, Roth was cool about it and I think the pending action may have to do with Rime

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 23:55

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

I mean those internment camps aren't a great look regardless and raise a whole slew of red flags

of course feigning outrage over this while we're doing the exact same thing on the southern border is patently absurd

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 00:11

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

Yinlock posted:

I post there really rarely but from what i've seen it's just Another C-Spam

I haven't been paying that much attention though outside of a making fun of biden thread so who knows where it went

once again the "cudgel to own your posting enemies" argument is revealed to be pure projection, libs are only getting hysterical about this so we'll shut up about the concentration camps

wait are you accusing me of doing that? I'm so confused

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 00:24

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

Yinlock posted:

no, was adding to your "feigning outrage" bit

the libs on these forums think any anger is just performative to "own your posting enemies" and this has been revealed to be total projection as usual

oh ok, sorry that just read strangely to me. Yes, it's absurd.

As with Saudi Arabia and Yemen as was posted above

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 00:28

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

Acerbatus posted:

So is the inverse. Brushing off the camps in china as being nice farms upstate with lots of room to run around in and grass to frolic in, while being horrified and acting like the american concentration camps are full-on nazi style is pretty absurd.

Both things can be bad, and what is concerning is how eager a number of people in this very thread seem to be to dismiss any criticism of the Chinese camps as being anything other than schools.

Full disclosure: I do not have any relation to any Uighers as far as I am aware, but one of my acquaintances does. Though I haven't spoken to her in around a month, last I heard she'd gone months without hearing from her brother (whom she spoke to daily prior) after he was arrested and put into a camp. That's hosed up.

I frankly haven't heard of anyone being released from the camps other than the Chinese government's completely unverifiable claims. Regardless of what is going on, people are being forced to stay there and not allowed to contact the outside world.

I think you need to distinguish between the rabid china defenders (who are weirdos), of which there are only a few I can remember, and people who get upset about the word being thrown around deliberately to obfuscate such nuances as it can become anti-communist propaganda rapidly

These two groups of people are very different and don't lump them all together. imo

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 00:35

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

comedyblissoption posted:

i dont want you to misunderstand that i was accusing you of anything

i just want to make sure peoples' goto example of frustration with western narratives about genocide should be the current on-going US genocide in yemen

yes 100% agreed, Yemen is State sponsored genocide. I was trying to say that. IIbrought up the Native American experience because we should have the benefit of less emotions as it's considered a historical event (though it's consequences still hold today)

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 00:38

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

we collectively literally stopped caring about concentration camps in our own country the second we got a new president

it's hardly surprising

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 00:42

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

Cao Ni Ma posted:

It is insane how radically different these countries are today to just a few centuries ago and the reason they shifted so hard was a reaction to our colonialism. If the US has constantly underestimated something about china, its their ability stomp reaction out.

do you have any reading suggestions on this topic? Religious conservative fanaticism and violence has done just fine under the biggest imperial power that has ever existed

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 00:46

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

Yinlock posted:

what does this have to do with the current topic

I don't think anyone's denying that happened, if that's what you're implying

yeah it's off topic and irrelevant to this discussion
Though, hilariously there's been a long standing feud between two big chinese subreddits and one of them is clearly modded by the CCP. They delete or ban anyone who ever talks about it and a few of the mods are tienammen square deniers and post in the non CCP reddit about it

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 01:14

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

the only evidence of that has been repeatedly posted and dunked on for using zenzs methodology just today. it was pretty funny lol

there are literally first hand accounts of prisoners talking about violent rape

we can talk about the nuance of the word genocide but this is bordering on pretending like china is doing nothing wrong

imo

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 05:24

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

I think the policy should be that yelling "what about genocide?" or "no genocide exists!" accomplishes nothing and should be avoided as an argument; it's lazy and brings unwanted attention. I'm not saying don't say the word ever, but if it's used as an own or to prove a point it should be an automatic probation

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 05:27

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

no!

concentration camps are a literal fact. You can say that about china too, those are def concentration camps. I think the sensitivity people have about the term "genocide" itself is a whole level higher than saying concentration camp

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 05:31

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

like, as someone who has said genocide re: china before, I know that it's a nuanced word and it's not the same thing as like a warlord driving through villages killing a religious or ethnic minority. I will absolutely admit that the bombast factor of the word itself play into using it. Technically correct (maybe?) but it's a blatantly bombastic term

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 05:35

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

comedyblissoption posted:

do you realize that the official moderation policy on a subset of this site is that you are literally not allowed to call them concentration camps lmao

nevermind the wider american context of mainstream apologism for the concentration camps

yes and it's loving stupid. UD Japanese internment camps were concentration camps and that's a historically uncontroversial take. The border camps are no different and perhaps much worse

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 05:37

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

comedyblissoption posted:

anyways im suggesting rules recognizing that a significant part of the userbase and moderation on this website is supportive of the democratic party even if those same people get angry when you tell them they are

I mean I get what you're saying but look at how civil this thread has been. Using the word to get an own in is lame and, while it's not a thing I do all the time, I certainly will avoid it in the future. I'm not sure it needs an explicit rule, but those of us who are more China-skeptical should keep it in mind when concern trolls like rime drop genocide!!! turds in cspam threads

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 05:49

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

that cringe reddit meme that was posted warranted a punishment anyways because it was obvious "china can do no wrong" posting which is lame and dumb and incorrect

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 05:51

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

I had no idea that 100% of the data on fertility was from one guy but yeah after reading through the news articles it's clearly the case. Him being an insane christian chud certainly doesn't help I don't think the detention numbers or the numerous first hand accounts should be hand waved away but it's clear that this is more similar to what the US is doing to central and south american immigrants for anyone's comfort. So they have to call it genocide and pretend it's somehow an exponentially more evil operation than what we have going on in the states.

I think another thing to acknowledge is that the uyghur population is a lot more consecrated and at risk of getting wiped out, something that's not really possible for the us with the demographics they're targeting

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 06:18

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

comedyblissoption posted:

most people on these forums screaming genocide at china and genocide denial are acting in good faith based on the narratives they find themselves ensconced in

if you start with the assumption that qadaffi is about to butcher a bunch of civilians, iraq is bayoneting incubater babies, serbia disappeared hundreds of thousands of civilians, or that morales is a horrible fascist dictator, then yeah it makes sense to denounce those opposing those claims and to support intervention and stricter moderation rules

yah the institutions conflating the allegations against china with the holocaust and specifically using the term genocide and invoking the specter of mass deaths are doing so in bad faith, but that's not the world the credulous consumers of these narratives live in

I mean, saddam was doing a genocide on the kurds but that was a post facto justification for doing an imperialism for the oil

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 06:20

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

Xi gets furious about being called Pooh so it remains funny and good

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 22:00

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

Agrajag posted:

yeah lets just ignore china's pretty recent history of western powers forcing their way into their country, splitting the country up into mini fiefdoms of foreign powers, and ignoring their sovereignty. perhaps that history can shed some light on their actions on not appeasing to the demands of the west and allowing operatives with a very rich history of funding loving death squads and forcing regime changes regardless of the human cost of said country

also

at the end of the day we have very real evidence of the united states doing much more than human rights abuses in south america, iraq, and afghanistan. it is a crime against humanity. considering this, whether it fits the definition of genocide perfectly or only partially is almost besides the point.

but again this is all based on "what about the US?" There are zero cspam regulars who think america is good, or there shouldn't be and they would deserve mockery and/or bans for posting "actually america is good" memes. You can think that the US is worse than China without turning it into "china is good"

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 23:16

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

The Oldest Man posted:

There are people in this very thread who run cover for the US's concentration camps next door, fyi.

who? Because gently caress them and they should be mocked and or banned

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 23:23

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

all I'm saying is that "US/western imperialism is bad" is a base viewpoint among leftists. So while it's fine to point out the hypocrisy when joe biden or mike bolton try to wring their hands about chinese genocide, I don't think it's a particularly helpful point of reference on an ostensibly leftist internet forum

# ¿ Mar 27, 2021 00:34

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

really queer Christmas posted:

But what is the point then of continuing to belabor that China bad too? Who does it benefit except to own posting enemies? There is, at least , a benefit to westerners and Americans talking about American crimes because we can at least do something about it more than just have our country rattle a saber at a foreign power. If you just want people to admit China is doing a very bad thing, then congrats you seem to have already gotten it from everyone here. What else, then, is the goal?

I posted earlier that saying "china genocide!!!" as a posting own is bad too, I just don't find the back and forth rhetoric productive for the community. But yeah, china should be critiqued for the individual things they do bad. So you should be able to talk about the chinese shadow banking system or HK riots or them executing billionaires (yippee) without it coming back to GENOCIDE! chat. I'm with ya there for the most part :shrug:

# ¿ Mar 27, 2021 00:44

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

as a frame of reference, a better way to attack US and western anti-chinese propaganda is the ghost cities or covid responses. Those were examples where the west got it 100% wrong and China was mostly correct in their actions

# ¿ Mar 27, 2021 00:46

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

The Oldest Man posted:

Dunno if I'm still under threat of orbital strike for Starting Cross Forums Drama but what the gently caress ever.

China concentration camps:

US concentration camps:

Same poster.

I mean if that's d&d not much we can do besides laugh.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2021 01:14

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

Eugene V. Dubstep posted:

let's not let a consensus of five tankies backseat modding on friday night dictate whether the thread stays open

I agree with most of your points but I don't think calling people tankies is particularly helpful given what they've posted

# ¿ Mar 27, 2021 01:16

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

The Oldest Man posted:

I don't own the definition of who is A Real C-Spammer and who is not but if you post in this thread I think you're fair game and one of those posts was in this thread.

lol fair enough yeah that's garbage and should be mocked

# ¿ Mar 27, 2021 01:17

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

yeah my bad I must have glazed over it, it's trash rear end garbage and us border camps are objectively human rights violations, concentration camps and would be considered part of a genocidal campaign if the population they were targeting wasn't so large and ubiquitous, as race and ethnicity are clearly a huge part of why they exist and are ran the way they are

# ¿ Mar 27, 2021 01:21

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 12:41

oxsnard: Oct 8, 2003

The Oldest Man posted:

I'm going to end this derail here but I think in practical terms the reason why people are comfortable calling Xinjiang a genocide while the US concentration camps where people have had their kids stolen, their reproductive organs removed, and been intentionally exposed to a lethal virus regardless of their legal status due to their membership in an undesirable ethnic, national, or cultural group are not "considered part of a genocidal campaign" has less to do with the population being large and ubiquitous and lot more to do with the fact that the NGOs and trans-national governmental organizations that drum up public attention against such things are beholden to dollars from the US foreign policy apparatus and largely staffed by an interchangeable set of US elites.

probably a fair point! And yeah I'll end the derail. CC deniers in the US should be permabanned on the spot but I'm not an admin so I'll just yell into the void

# ¿ Mar 27, 2021 01:52

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > C-SPAM moderation and Xinjiang: read rules in op