AnimeIsTrash posted:

So what qualifies you to speak out about the other threads in the forum if you don't participate in any of them? This isn't a troll or attack, it just seems to me that a lot of people post solely in that thread, pop out to start a fight in another thread, and then go back to the trump thread to rally people for them.


It's been constantly been proven that many of the articles stating Ugiyur genocide have been sourced from Adrian Zenz or the state department.

Zenz is a born again evangelical who believes god has given him/the US the goal of destroying the CPC. Additionally he's a scholar for the victims of communism foundation. The victims of communism foundation is most known for blaming the death of corona virus on the CPC, and also trying to mark down every nazi killed in WW2 as a victim of communism. Ontop of this Zenz doesn't speak a lick of Chinese which seems very odd for someone who is so invested in China.

AnimeIsTrash posted:

Regarding my qualifications, I was a bit of a Chinaphile when I was younger. Studied Chinese language and history in college and even went on a study trip to Beijing, Chengdu, Shanghai, and Tibet back in 04.

Gringostar posted:

is anyone in cspam not actively calling out what the us is doing along it’s southern boarder to migrants genocide?

or for that matter what ever evil any other country is doing?

AnimeIsTrash posted:

I was just responding to your qualifications with my qualifications. Just so we're on the same footing. This isn't a thread for silly slapfights, it's for talking about CSPAM moderation. Thank you.

SpiderHyphenMan posted:

You really shouldn't have used the word chinaphile if you wanted an appeal to your education and travel experience to be taken seriously on this matter.

Ferrinus posted:

I've put these two paragraphs in both the generic communism thread and the eurasia thread but i'm going to repost them here because they seem to have been useful to people. These are two posts a friend of mine made on another discussion board to criticize and contextualize what's happening in Xinjiang and also Mongolia. Sorry for the lack of caps etc:



I think it does a good job of squaring the circle of, on one hand, acknowledging that there is obviously state-based coercion and repression happening along ethnic and religious lines, but on the other hand understanding that the incentives of the developmentalist Chinese state are different from the incentives of the hegemonic US state and therefore alter how and why China treats with its own ethnic minorities. Trying to proletarianize your rural population in order to increase the urban labor pool is different from trying to terrorize migrants in order to maintain an easily-exploited lower stratum in the reserve army of labor.

This on its own isn't meant to convince anyone (I assume this isn't actually meant to be a thread in which the debate is settled), but I'm trying to illustrate here that the "pro-China" take is a good-faith analysis coming from a particular socialist tradition and not a deliberate attempt to sweep war crimes under the rug or something.

SpiderHyphenMan posted:

You're completely right and I'm sorry I didn't know chinaphile was an established term.

Kindest Forums User posted:

you are a literal ecofascist and have been called out numerous times because you support terrorizing developing nations. The fact that you admit to relentlessly snitching out posters to forums cops is just rich. You have to be one of the worst posters here.

Ferrinus posted:

Jury's still out on that one, but it's definitely proof that Deng knew what he was talking about.


See, you've literally read the opposite of what I wrote. I don't think genocide is okay. You and I disagree on the facts, not the ethics. If I thought the vocational schools in China were even the loose equivalent of the residential schools in Canada, I would oppose them in the strongest possible terms. However, I don't think they're the same for a variety of reasons (taking some adults rather than a preponderance of children, for starters).

To be fair to you, I might be a gleeful supporter of genocide who is simply cloaking his bloodthirst beyond technical quibbles about contemporary and historical facts. For sure, actual holocaust deniers will open with leading questions about logistical feasibility, not lay all their cards down on the table immediately. However, that's not what I'm doing. I think the CCP has contradicting forces in it, some of which genuinely want to push Han chauvinism and who complain that minorities get too many rights, and others of which want to cleave to the Soviet "each nationality gets autonomy" model. I think both communists and capitalists in the Chinese elite have a strong interest in dumping as many people into the industrial proletariat as quickly as possible, such that terrorist attacks in Xinjiang give them a good pretext to ramp up and do manually something that was just happening due to market forces before.

However, no one in China actually has an incentive to commit genocide on any of its internal nationalities rather than just put all those nationalities to work. This is why the one-child policy, for instance, hit the Han the heaviest and minorities like the Uyghurs the lightest.

Yossarian-22 posted:

I still really like China and wish the CCP wasn’t so evil

i feel like the use of the word "evil" here is a bit comical and reminds me of the kind of propaganda coming out of the epoch times, that the ccp is the #1 enemy of the world. that's not even to say that it's wrong to call them evil mind you; i think all states are evil to the extent that they are repressive apparatuses and look after their state's own imperialist or parochial interests at the expense of other states. but the way the chinese ccp has been singled out as this boogeyman is eerily similar to reagan calling the soviet union the "evil empire" of the world. it also doesn't really make sense considering the limits of china's geopolitical power.

anti-chinese neo-cold war hysteria has also been part and parcel of the attacks against asian-americans, which complicates discussion of china. that's not to say china should not be criticized, even severely, but it should make anyone rightfully wary of western news about/views of china.

the fact is that we all know very little about china relative to what there is to know, and both uncritical support and fervent anti-ccp attitudes both come from a place of ignorance. the same goes for moderations based on "wrong think" about china: moderators are just as guilty of this ignorance. on that basis i don't think such moderatoins really make sense. the ccp being "evil" and the uighur situation not technically constituting a genocide can both be independently true or false, but they can also both be moderated on the basis of a slippery slope argument that you are, respectively, either privately racist against chinese people on the one hand or denying the actual repression of uighurs on the other. the fact is that moderators can't really establish intent, so 90% of the time neither claim should be moderated.

quote:

I still really like China and wish the CCP wasn’t so evil, but their evil is approximately equivalent to America’s evil from what I can tell.

Ferrinus posted:

Americans don't have an incentive to literally exterminate Black people and Mexicans, but they do have a powerful incentive to dehumanize and immiserate them because sorting people into tiers and doling out human rights proportionate to your spot on the tier list is an important element of extracting profits. The internment camps on the US's southern border are absolutely logical, because they help us to maintain an underclass to hyper-exploit. Full-on industrial extermination camps might represent an irrational excess, but you don't need those to be doing a genocide as such.

Brain Candy posted:

This is a weird thing to say, especially with respect to America. America was explicitly about killing Native Americans and taking their stuff, using 'empty' land as a substitute for dealing with internal issues for most of it's history.

Kindest Forums User posted:

America is literally the most powerful place in the world and not one single person who enjoys her spoils are the original inhabitants of the land, or those that participated in the slave or slave-like labour of building the empire.

Yossarian-22 posted:

Sorry I was quoting it to make a point, mostly that it shouldn't be taken out of context. Like I said, it is easy to see the word "evil" in an almost comical way such that it evokes a certain image, at least for me, of Reaganite rhetoric. Would it be right for mods to claim that the way you used "evil" is anti-Chinese racism? Of course not, just as skepticism of Uighur genocide shouldn't be taken to be anti-Uighur racism.

My personal opinion of what you said was more cringe than it was you being wrong, btw. I mostly used it to illustrate a broader point. Sorry if it feels like I used your post as my guinea pig (I kinda did)

Brain Candy posted:

A claim that doing evil has no rational basis is either a very sophisticated or very naive. There's obvious material gain to be had from taking other people's things and labor without consequence and it's far easier to plot the lines of history if you think that the racist bullshit is the justification rather than the cause.

Atrocious Joe posted:

Racism helps partially resolved some of the contradictions of class rule. For example, racism in a workplace can hinder organizing on a shop floor, which hurts the workers but helps the owner suppress wages. Racism helped justify seizing land from indigenous groups, and why Black people could be enslaved and then forced into ghettos, both of which built US industrial and economic power.

Racism does exist outside of strictly economic relations, but it was cultivated and unleashed to help secure capitalist rule. Viewing it as only a disease ignores how it was used to create and sustain the current class system.

Brain Candy posted:

Yeah, I'm familiar. It's fine to put forward the old Platonic claim that doing evil is not good for you, but to say you don't understand the motivation is very naive. To be unable to conceive of how someone would find evil appealing is to be unable to predict the actions of those you consider to irrational. You could say that's what irrationally is, but I've found that people are irrational in very consistent ways.

THS posted:

it is kind of funny that a thread about cspam moderation has already turned into a better discussion about xinjiang than 99% of what you can find on most of SA, on reddit, or twitter - to say nothing of traditional news sources

fanfic insert posted:

It kind of is when you consider the history of Hong Kong and how the british forced a parliamentary system onto hong kong which they knew would clash with mainland china as they were leaving, as a final "gently caress you" to China, and the fact that their economic decline is directly linked to western capital moving on from hong kong into Singapore as an asian capital holding place.

Not sure of Tibet though.

edit; i mean, leaving out the history of why there is trouble brewing and only highlighting the trouble itself in order to enhance the image of China as a tyrannical state is pretty much the textbook definition of propaganda.

SpiderHyphenMan posted:

I've been seeing this poo poo my entire adult life lol. if you had asked americans "are you okay with China being the world's biggest economy" the numbers would be overwhelmingly against the acceptability of that notion.

SpiderHyphenMan posted:

I meant as a hypothetical.

Judakel posted:

should we bring back the tibetan class system?

Judakel posted:

They're a part of China, so luckily no one can bring it back.

fanfic insert posted:

China has guaranteed housing, universal(legally, practically almost universal) healthcare, free education. The current leader of China is a man born to a father which was sent to compulsory labor, yet still managed to work his way up in the party to become it's leader. The Chinese state has reformed itself politically and economically to better correspond with how the people want it to run several times since Mao died. The trade deals they make as a part of the Belt and Road is much more mutually beneficial than any loan ever given from the US or the IMF on behalf of the US.

China is starting out from a more humanitarian point than the US has ever been at, even if you include the worst of western media imagines of Xinjiang onto their crime bill.

They're not good, they're just not straight up evil to the core like the US is.

Judakel posted:

It really does.

THS posted:

i really think the degree to which china has become public enemy number 1, as quickly as it has, is incredibly dangerous, incredibly bad, and it doesn’t matter if you don’t think it’s “surprising” or that it’s how things go” or that “we are all doomed anyway”

Judakel posted:

Under the control of China, that class system does not return.

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

yeah its not something to admire or anything, but even with their economic growth and reaching/surpassing the US in many ways, there are still areas where they are considered a developing country. because they are! it shouldnt be a mark against them until they start moving backwards

Atrocious Joe posted:

how do we define mainstream Islam


That's a Buddhist monk protesting what he saw as persecution by the Catholic leadership of South Vietnam.

Judakel posted:

You have no clue what you're talking about.

THS posted: