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Dr Tobin is doing a solid job of pushing back against and correcting the defense’s line of questioning. Nelson even mentioned something about being captivated by his accent while backtracking on a question.
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Apr 8, 2021 20:00
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BoldFace posted:The problem with this reasoning is that there is, to my understanding, video evidence of Floyd saying "I can't breathe" before he was pinned against the ground. If someone is already having breathing problems and you choke them for 9 minutes with that knowledge, I don't see how that's not you murdering them.
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Apr 8, 2021 20:00
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-Blackadder- posted:This is a broader side question, people dying in police custody in non-firearm related ways seems to happen in the U.S. more than it should: does this kind of thing also happen a lot in the other wealthy countries? Are Mounties kneeling on peoples necks until they suffocate semi-regularly in Canada too? Or the UK? For that matter has anyone bothered to look into why American cops are such sadistic monsters yet ones in U.S. adjacent countries seem to be at least substantially toned down in comparison? Qualified immunity is a policy enacted by the courts, without a public vote, that protects police departments from the actions of their own bad actors by not allowing departments to be sued because a judge said so. There's not much point in suing police departments because there is no defined test used for qualified immunity, the judge simply decides that the entire department shouldn't pay the price for one bad man making the fuckup of a lifetime and that's that. In other countries where departments are not so protected, there's more effort to remove bad actors before they kill someone. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Apr 8, 2021 |
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Apr 8, 2021 20:43
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Craptacular! posted:Qualified immunity is a policy enacted by the courts, without a public vote, that protects police departments from the actions of their own bad actors by not allowing departments to be sued because a judge said so. There's not much point in suing police departments because there is no defined test used for qualified immunity, the judge simply decides that the entire department shouldn't pay the price for one bad man making the fuckup of a lifetime and that's that. Qualified immunity is no longer the case for Colorado and New Mexico 
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Apr 8, 2021 20:46
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Kalit posted:Qualified immunity is no longer the case for Colorado and New Mexico Well that's good, because I was just writing about how the Supreme Court hosed it up and it will take our whole lives to un-gently caress it. Glad that's not the case.
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Apr 8, 2021 20:47
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Craptacular! posted:Well that's good, because I was just writing about how the Supreme Court hosed it up and it will take our whole lives to un-gently caress it. Glad that's not the case. Yep. I didn't even know NM rescinded it, but I guess it just got signed into law yesterday: https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksi...sh=5b56d42c79ad E: I just finished up (half listening to) Dr Tobin's testimony, did that seem as damning as I think it is? Or does anyone think Nelson's defense of "NERD!" might actually land with the jury? Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Apr 8, 2021 |
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Apr 8, 2021 20:48
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Kalit posted:Yep. I didn't even know NM rescinded it, but I guess it just got signed into law yesterday: https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksi...sh=5b56d42c79ad I thought it was pretty damning as well, especially when they pointed out in that one image that Chauvin's feet weren't resting on the ground when he was kneeling on Mr. Floyd's neck. However, I should preface this with I fully believe Chauvin should be convicted, so my views are biased. E: Honestly pretty impressed with how well the prosecution is busting down each of the alternate causes of death presented by the defense. Velocity Raptor fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Apr 8, 2021 |
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Apr 8, 2021 21:33
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so who is the defense using as its witnesses and poo poo?
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Apr 9, 2021 04:42
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-Blackadder- posted:This is a broader side question, people dying in police custody in non-firearm related ways seems to happen in the U.S. more than it should: does this kind of thing also happen a lot in the other wealthy countries? Are Mounties kneeling on peoples necks until they suffocate semi-regularly in Canada too? Or the UK? For that matter has anyone bothered to look into why American cops are such sadistic monsters yet ones in U.S. adjacent countries seem to be at least substantially toned down in comparison? We have a significant problem with aboriginal death in custody. According to the article I just read a major factor is that indigenous people are much less likely to be given proper medical care while imprisoned, causing them to die of 'natural causes' that could and should have been prevented. The Lone Badger fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 05:11
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The Lone Badger posted:We have a significant problem with aboriginal death in custody. According to the article I just read a major factor is that indigenous people are much less likely to be given proper medical care while imprisoned, causing them to die of 'natural causes' that could and should have been prevented. Systematic across the medical system, worst for indigenous, terrifyingly heartless whenever caught on video
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Apr 9, 2021 06:20
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Velocity Raptor posted:I thought it was pretty damning as well, especially when they pointed out in that one image that Chauvin's feet weren't resting on the ground when he was kneeling on Mr. Floyd's neck. However, I should preface this with I fully believe Chauvin should be convicted, so my views are biased. It's looking like the Murder 2 and 3 charges are going to land, or at least should. The prosecution has been presenting their stuff and refuting the defense extremely well. If they don't, well, we know what's going to happen, especially after this.
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Apr 9, 2021 06:32
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America has been exporting its killer cop culture for decades. And the Mounties were literally founded to murder natives.
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Apr 9, 2021 09:03
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Velocity Raptor posted:I thought it was pretty damning as well, especially when they pointed out in that one image that Chauvin's feet weren't resting on the ground when he was kneeling on Mr. Floyd's neck. However, I should preface this with I fully believe Chauvin should be convicted, so my views are biased. Yea, these expert witnesses the past day have done a pretty good job at showing this is not an overdose. Dapper_Swindler posted:so who is the defense using as its witnesses and poo poo? The defense potential witness list is here: https://mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/WitnessList02082021.pdf. Some of these were already called by the state. I'm wondering what the testimonies of the Park Police personnel will be like, if they are called (who were on site at least part of the time). Interesting enough, the first name in the Defense Experts category is David Fowler, the former chief medical examiner for Maryland who's currently facing a wrongful death lawsuit: https://www.marylandmatters.org/2020/12/17/anton-blacks-family-files-wrongful-death-lawsuit-targeting-cops-medical-examiner/ Also, as an FYI, all of the trial documents that are already publicly available can be found here: https://mncourts.gov/StateofMinnesotavDerekChauvin Kalit fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 13:38
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Ghost Leviathan posted:America has been exporting its killer cop culture for decades. And the Mounties were literally founded to murder natives. The biggest difference between US and canadian cops is canadian cops have less expectation of being shot and react accordingly. They're not actually any better and the RCMP is loving trash.
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Apr 9, 2021 14:26
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The biggest difference between US and canadian cops is canadian cops have less expectation of being shot and react accordingly. They're not actually any better and the RCMP is loving trash. My only interaction with mounties is I get a letter from them every few years warning me my wife owns a gun.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:29
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After that cross examination of Dr. Thomas, I half expected Chauvin to fire Nelson on the spot. Some of those questions/hypotheticals were extremely embarrassing  E: For context, one of Nelson's hypotheticals was as follows: If Mr. Floyd was found dead in his house by himself without any other external circumstances present (e.g. no cops, etc), would she rule that death as a drug overdose? Kalit fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 18:56
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Kalit posted:After that cross examination of Dr. Thomas, I half expected Chauvin to fire Nelson on the spot. Some of those questions/hypotheticals were extremely embarrassing I have to imagine that the prosecutor could have objected to the relevance, but would much rather have the defense attorney make an rear end of himself.
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Apr 9, 2021 19:09
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Kalit posted:After that cross examination of Dr. Thomas, I half expected Chauvin to fire Nelson on the spot. Some of those questions/hypotheticals were extremely embarrassing At one point the chief ME made a similar statement prior to trial; everyone knows it's going to come up during his testimony, so Nelson is presumably asking if Dr. Thomas would reach the same conclusion. quote:"If he were found dead at home alone and no other apparent causes, this could be acceptable to call an OD. Deaths have been certified with levels of 3*," Baker told investigators. * ng/mL of fentanyl; Floyd's was ~11, IIRC. Obviously, the prosecution will counter that he wasn't found dead with no other apparent causes, among other things.
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Apr 9, 2021 19:26
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My understanding is that he could have been destined to die already if Derek Chauvin didn't interfere, it doesn't matter if the way he intervened was illegal (not a lawyer)
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Apr 9, 2021 19:30
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zzyzx posted:At one point the chief ME made a similar statement prior to trial; everyone knows it's going to come up during his testimony, so Nelson is presumably asking if Dr. Thomas would reach the same conclusion. I actually didn't know chief ME made that statement, makes a little more sense. But still hilarious. FYI, if you haven't been following the trial closely, it's already been stated over and over again by both sides that 11ng could be a lethal amount, but it's a huge range and there's a lot of people who that is not a lethal amount for. To me, it's entertaining that Nelson tried to return to this simplistic argument with Dr. Thomas, who is an expert witness talking about why this was not an overdose death based on scientific reasons because of all of the known circumstances/exhibits/etc.
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Apr 9, 2021 19:39
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Billy Gnosis posted:My understanding is that he could have been destined to die already if Derek Chauvin didn't interfere, it doesn't matter if the way he intervened was illegal (not a lawyer) thats some hosed up predestination poo poo right there. how the gently caress is that a defense.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:50
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Dapper_Swindler posted:thats some hosed up predestination poo poo right there. how the gently caress is that a defense. Whatever your defense team thinks is the best possible defense becomes your defense And Chauvin doesn't have a lot of better "I'm innocent, actually" takes
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Apr 9, 2021 20:54
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Kalit posted:I actually didn't know chief ME made that statement, makes a little more sense. But still hilarious. George Floyd was called "Big George" for a reason. From personal experience I can say that effective levels of prescription drugs are probably 50% higher than they are for average-sized humans. Considering his size and acquired tolerance, him having a bunch of fentanyl in his system isn't surprising.
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Apr 9, 2021 21:09
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Zeroisanumber posted:George Floyd was called "Big George" for a reason. From personal experience I can say that effective levels of prescription drugs are probably 50% higher than they are for average-sized humans. Considering his size and acquired tolerance, him having a bunch of fentanyl in his system isn't surprising. A doctor who is an expert on this testified that his respiratory rate was not depressed based on the breaths taken on the video, which on its own rules out fentanyl being the cause.
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Apr 10, 2021 00:10
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Adenoid Dan posted:A doctor who is an expert on this testified that his respiratory rate was not depressed based on the breaths taken on the video, which on its own rules out fentanyl being the cause. The defense is not going to make the case that this was a simple overdose death anyway. It's been pretty clear since the opening statements that what they're going for is an explanation that Floyd died from a combination of drugs, poor general health, and stress (physical exhaustion) caused by the arrest. It's intentionally vague, so that the prosecution will have trouble shooting it down.
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Apr 10, 2021 00:58
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Adenoid Dan posted:A doctor who is an expert on this testified that his respiratory rate was not depressed based on the breaths taken on the video, which on its own rules out fentanyl being the cause. Yeah, it literally doesn't matter what the serum level is -- if someone has an appropriate amount of tolerance and isn't respiratory suppressed, it isn't an overdose.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:56
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Zeroisanumber posted:George Floyd was called "Big George" for a reason. From personal experience I can say that effective levels of prescription drugs are probably 50% higher than they are for average-sized humans. Considering his size and acquired tolerance, him having a bunch of fentanyl in his system isn't surprising. Along these lines, do you (or anyone) know if the amount of fentanyl that causes an OD has a correlation with body weight/size, assuming tolerance is the same? I keep wondering why this isn't brought up by expert witnesses, if there's no data on body sizes for those who OD'd or if the data doesn't show this. Granted, I guess they probably don't know the tolerance of most of those people....but I figured a study would have included this (I can't find any based on a quick Google search myself and am far from an expert) Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 15:32
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Kalit posted:Along these lines, do you (or anyone) know if the amount of fentanyl that causes an OD has a correlation with body weight/size, assuming tolerance is the same? I keep wondering why this isn't brought up by expert witnesses, if there's no data on body sizes for those who OD'd or if the data doesn't show this. Granted, I guess they probably don't know the tolerance of most of those people....but I figured a study would have included this (I can't find any based on a quick Google search myself and am far from an expert) They had some graphs at the trial, showing the amount of fentanyl in previous cases, its around this time period here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLUCIDdJgnM&t=4655s In fact this whole video has it all, its a good watch to learn about it. iirc George had like 10 times lower than the average case where it was cause of death. happyhippy fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 15:53
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happyhippy posted:They had some graphs at the trial, showing the amount of fentanyl in previous cases, its around this time period here: I did see that part, which was great. But I was specifically wondering about the correlation of the amount of fentanyl to body weight/size (unless I missed Dr Isenschmid talking about that part, which I don't think I did).
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Apr 10, 2021 16:00
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Kalit posted:Along these lines, do you (or anyone) know if the amount of fentanyl that causes an OD has a correlation with body weight/size, assuming tolerance is the same? I keep wondering why this isn't brought up by expert witnesses, if there's no data on body sizes for those who OD'd or if the data doesn't show this. Granted, I guess they probably don't know the tolerance of most of those people....but I figured a study would have included this (I can't find any based on a quick Google search myself and am far from an expert) Once you start questioning your witnesses about people OD'ing with fentanyl, you give an opportunity for the defense to do the same. This is pretty risky, and Nelson might be able to squeeze some pretty damning answers from the experts. Instead, prosecution already brought up statistics about fentanyl levels in DUI arrests, which effectively makes the case that Floyd's fentanyl levels weren't completely off the charts. BoldFace fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 16:02
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Kalit posted:I did see that part, which was great. But I was specifically wondering about the correlation of the amount of fentanyl to body weight/size (unless I missed Dr Isenschmid talking about that part, which I don't think I did). That will depend on how the drug partitions into fat and other factors. Fentanyl is pretty fat soluble, so the more fat there is in proportion to lean body mass, the higher the dose that will be required - but I'm not sure if they know by how much. I'm not sure if it is standard to dose by lean body weight. But almost certainly, it does not scale linearly with body weight.
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Apr 11, 2021 06:36
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Kalit posted:Along these lines, do you (or anyone) know if the amount of fentanyl that causes an OD has a correlation with body weight/size, assuming tolerance is the same? I keep wondering why this isn't brought up by expert witnesses, if there's no data on body sizes for those who OD'd or if the data doesn't show this. Granted, I guess they probably don't know the tolerance of most of those people....but I figured a study would have included this (I can't find any based on a quick Google search myself and am far from an expert) The numbers that they are reporting are in ng/mL which is a concentration, not a total amount, so it's already corrected for body size.
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Apr 11, 2021 08:49
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Belteshazzar posted:The numbers that they are reporting are in ng/mL which is a concentration, not a total amount, so it's already corrected for body size. I think that post is essentially asking about allometry.
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Apr 11, 2021 09:25
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BoldFace posted:Once you start questioning your witnesses about people OD'ing with fentanyl, you give an opportunity for the defense to do the same. This is pretty risky, and Nelson might be able to squeeze some pretty damning answers from the experts. Instead, prosecution already brought up statistics about fentanyl levels in DUI arrests, which effectively makes the case that Floyd's fentanyl levels weren't completely off the charts. Ohhh right, that makes sense! Adenoid Dan posted:That will depend on how the drug partitions into fat and other factors. Fentanyl is pretty fat soluble, so the more fat there is in proportion to lean body mass, the higher the dose that will be required - but I'm not sure if they know by how much. Ahh okay. Thanks for the answers!
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Apr 11, 2021 18:57
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The court case has wrapped up the first question with a resounding "Yes, Chauvin killed Floyd, doing things that he was not allowed to do, and were not policy." This brings us resoundingly to the necessary subsequent question that the defense must default to: "Yeah, but did floyd DESERVE this enough that it's still ok"
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Apr 12, 2021 10:00
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gonna run down all the testimonies I see starting with: Jonathan Rich ladies and goonmen Expert on Cardiovascular health; heart transplants; published over 200 chapters in publications here to weigh in on how Floyd died his opinion is cause of death cardio pulmonary arrest by low oxygen levels caused by the prone restraint and choke he was in . He straight up said it what a hero He notes that he found no medical problems regarding Floyd's heart in all his past medical records and visits. His EKGs showed no heart irregularities. He estimates that Floyd's high blood pressure was caused because his heart was abnormally strong He also determines that high blood pressure itself is not a heart condition . Sjs00 fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Apr 12, 2021 |
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Apr 12, 2021 15:52
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This testimony feels like a slam dunk. Obviously there’s more to the case, but the medical aspect seems like a closed case.
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Apr 12, 2021 16:59
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The Lord of Hats posted:This testimony feels like a slam dunk. Obviously there’s more to the case, but the medical aspect seems like a closed case.
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Apr 12, 2021 17:06
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it was not easy to watch for the scientific detail and bullshit decorum thats for sure
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Apr 12, 2021 17:07
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scuz posted:Yeah, this is good to listen to. Really not sure how "would any normal healthy person survive what killed GF" isn't relevant, but I'm not a judge. I think the point is to show that the drugs found in his system weren't actually the reason he died. Additionally, saying that it would kill "any normal healthy person" circumvents any potential arguments of "well the officer didn't know he was in a frail condition, his response was proportionate given what he knew when he arrived on scene" because taking those actions against anyone else would have had the same outcome
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Apr 12, 2021 17:44
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