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Sanguinia posted:De-escalate rather than immediately murder someone? In the bodycam footage the girl is literally charging at a girl she has pinned against a car and is swinging the knife to stab her in the head and neck. The police we’re already there, she was aware the police were there. Are you saying you roll up on that situation and whilst this girl is stabbing another girl you would verbally de-escalate the situation whilst she is murdering her?
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Apr 21, 2021 11:23
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Alhazred posted:Not shoot her four times? There was a similar situation in Norway where a woman was threatening a child with a knife. The police shot one time and it was non lethal. A cop just unloading his clip on someone seems bad. Was she mid swing with the knife? Did the police have time to take the shot, see what they hit, re-evaluate? Because in this case they sure didn’t. It’s absolutely horrifying to watch this girl swing a knife at someone she is pinning against a car, aiming for her head/neck. The woman who was being stabbed is incredibly lucky she didn’t get got even with 4 bullets going into her attacker as the attacker was very much swinging, her weight could of still propelled her attacker. Shooting people isn’t like in movies, where you can magically shoot a knife out of someone’s hand, or hit a specific body part guaranteeing immediate compliance or debilitating injury to prevent someone doing something. It’s brutal and chaotic.
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Apr 21, 2021 11:56
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Ror posted:I have seen this and I am still amazed at how many people just can’t wait for the police to escalate to lethal force. You've seen that image. Have you ever tried to fight someone? Have you ever tried to fight someone with a knife? The amount of people who want to criticise the police but then lose all credibility when they then try and suggest how to engage with people in physical confrontations but have zero clue on any form of physical confrontation theory or even practical experience is incredibly frustrating when you have clear cases where the police use massively unnecessary force vs when it is completely justified. Morons then mix up the two and suddenly criticism of police use of force becomes so muddy with idiots thinking that shooting someone in the leg is a good idea or telling them forcefully to stop stabbing the other person that they then get used as examples by the people who lick officers boots and claim nothing they can do is ever wrong and only idiots criticise the police with utterly bizarre ideas. TulliusCicero posted:Can anyone tell me why an active shooter can be brought into custody alive, but a 15 year old girl with a knife can't? Because the active shooter surrenders and stops being an active shooter, the 15 year old girl is mid kill. Why do you need this explaining to you, it is really very obvious. Paracaidas posted:
You do it, lets do an experiment. I'll grab a sharpie pen (instead of an actual knife) and an innocent by stander. You have to use the taser and non lethal force to stop me killing both the person I am in the process of "killing" and stop me from killing you. (covering you in sharpie pen) You going to intercept me with a baton? I'll kill you. You going to talk me down? I'll kill you. Give you a taser? With how unreliable they are? Innocent by stander is probably dead, you might survive if the prongs hit correctly, but even then, you willing to risk that chance? willie_dee fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 16:07
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Josef bugman posted:A knife isn't a sharpie and the lust for murder that is on display here is kind of messed up. You would want to use a real knife in the experiment? Are you mad and do you want to die for the experiment? A sharpie is an excellent way of demonstrating how stupid it is to try and go any where near someone with a knife is. The person without the knife will be covered in pen ink. That pen ink demonstrates how stabbed up you would be. The lust for murder is not here, if anything you just have a lot of people with zero clue on any kind of physical combat training or experiencing trying to comment. One idiot even asked how dangerous a knife could possibly be. The police officer probably saved the other girl in pinks life. Who would you rather see dead, the victim in pink, or the girl trying to murder her? Do you think the girl in pink should be sacrificed because you would rather see her murdered by a 15 year old girl than the 15 year old girl trying to murder people be murdered by a cop, is that your logic? In which case, why is that particular form of lust for murder ok but the police using deadly force to stop murder not ok?
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Apr 21, 2021 16:25
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Dapper_Swindler posted:This. It takes him maybe 5 seconds on the scene to do it. Also even if you believe it’s “justified”, he could of super easily hit the other lady too because he decided to pump 4 shots in. I think it’s a hosed situation and the cop should at the very least be sacked. He saved the lady in pinks life. Open offer, anyone thinking this, is welcome to meet up with me and we can set up multiple scenarios where you get to repeatedly try and stop me getting ink all over you with a sharpie without using a gun to stop me.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:33
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Josef bugman posted:I mean the experiment you made up in your own head and that you have not tested might not be the best in terms of giving accurate results, would it? It's a really common way of training knife defence, and its normally used as a demonstration as to why going hands on with someone who has a knife is utterly insane for anyone, no matter how trained they are in self defence, because you get covered in ink, and just one bit of ink demonstrates a severe injury. The fact you are questioning this shows how little you have ever contemplated or attempted to do any kind of physical combat or self defence. Josef bugman posted:Ah, I see we've moved on to "I will fight you in an Arbys parking lot" level of discourse. Don't get it twisted, im not saying "I am going to beat you up to show you you are wrong", the purpose isn't to show you I am tougher than you. It is to show how silly it is for anyone to try and take someone on with a knife, particularly mid knife attack.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:36
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Kalit posted:Maybe instead of taking the time to draw a gun, the officer should have instead grabbed Bryant when she shoved the first person to the ground? I think he was too busy dealing with the fact someone was kicking someone else in the head during this time and the utter madness that he was arriving to, not having seen the fact that this wasn't a minor scrap between people, but actually someone was trying to actively murder someone in full view of the police.  But no, all these absolute heroes itt would of both saved the girl in pink and not hurt the girl with the knife who is literally mid stab. 
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Apr 21, 2021 16:42
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Dapper_Swindler posted:I am not disagreeing with you on that point, I just think the whole situation is awful and it’s it’s still depressing and at the end of the day there is no such thing as a “good” shoot. The whole situation is a cluster gently caress and every new detail makes it more depressing. Why then do you think the officer should be fired? He arrived and saved someone from being murdered.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:44
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Josef bugman posted:Another really common way of training people is to imagine things that are hugely unlikely to happen and then have them work through it because You Could Be In Danger. We've already seen over the course of the last few decades that training methods for US police are, at best, starkly apocalyptic and/or worryingly horny. Are you really trying to argue the ridiculous notion that some knives aren't dangerous? And that not only that, that officers are supposed to calculate and assess what kind of knife that it is being thrust into the victims face and neck when they arrive before they decide if they should intervene to prevent said knife being used to kill someone, because, it might not be dangerous?
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Apr 21, 2021 16:47
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Kalit posted:He was literally drawing his gun when she ran right by him. If he had grabbed her instead of drawing his gun, it could have been avoided. I queued up this video so you can see it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjf-6xcjkbA&t=60s Come do the experiment, you try and grab me and see how much sharpie you end up with in your face and neck. The video you linked at the time stamp you have someone explaining "here she is attempting top stab the first female"... Oh yea, in those 3 to 6 seconds, rather than pull out a gun, there are humans on this planet who can think and act not just with super human speed, but they can also get physical with someone with a knife and hope to survive. You have no idea what it is you are talking about.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:49
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Josef bugman posted:As opposed to the one person in this thread who keeps bringing it back to "I want her to die because she's a threat" ? You just need a justification to kill, which makes you better than some police at least but not better than a lot of them, and we've seen that is pretty bad. Where do you get that I want her to die?! Utter rubbish. It is a tragic situation and I feel awful that her life ended, and that her life was so bad she ended up in a foster home with the issues escalating to the point where she was probably having mental health issues that resulted in her making very poor decisions. The only option to save the girl in pink was to kill her, and that is terrible. She was clearly failed by her parents, the social services and medical professionals assigned to her, if she was assigned any.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:52
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Probably because he could have easily hit the other girl too when he pumped a bunch of rounds in. Personally I’d like to know all the details of the case and who called the cops and such. He knows his accuracy rate at that range, he made a snap judgement, it was the correct one. He saved a life.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:52
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HonorableTB posted:This discussion is a great example of what happens when your strongly held beliefs are so strongly held that they overpower your ability to consume and analyze evidence that isn't compatible with those beliefs. Congrats, you've unlocked the secret to how chuds continue to justify everything cops and trump do because this is the leftist version of "who are you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?" when there's video evidence of an attempted murder right there in front of you, and we reached that point when SchnorkIes argued that a black girl getting murdered by another black girl is somehow preferable to the attacker getting shot and the victim being saved because it was a cop that intervened To take it even further than the notion that we have people who would rather murder victims die at the hands of murderers than cops save them by using lethal force on said murderers to save the murderers over the murder victims, which is a shockingly bad take. But we’ve got people who can’t even bring themselves to watch a video of an event trying to claim they have any moral or intelligent authority about what people who are actively putting themselves into the situations should do. I would utterly adore to see how some posters who are criticising the police officer perform in the same scenario in comparison. It would be hilarious, hence my offer to demonstrate how daft they are with sharpie pens. They do such a disservice to the credibility of criticising the police it’s no wonder that despite the mountain of evidence George Floyds killer was guilty, there was doubt, because the loudest critics are utterly delusional when it comes to how the police should behave.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:06
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Pablo Nergigante posted:This is a ridiculous standard The standards that are being suggested in this very thread involve officers being knife proof and beyond black belt level bjj skills (Gracies themselves have said how it’s impossible to restrain someone without hurting them in any way shape or form), able to make split second assessments of threats and have voiced that can magically convince people to obey instructions from an authority. I think if the posters suggesting this realised how utterly useless they would be in the situation, and how they would more than likely make things horrendously worse, they may appreciate their criticism, when they can’t even bring themselves to watch a video of violence, is. Pablo Nergigante posted:
I didn’t say that. I’m saying it’s the most vocal delusional police critics who are utterly void of any logic or practical knowledge of self defence situations make it very very easy for police boot lickers to defend the police from criticism.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:20
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NoDamage posted:Of course we know in hindsight that he managed to only shoot his intended target, but I don't think we should be leaving it to cops to self-evaluate their own aim in these types of situations. I can't help but think a taser would have been more appropriate here. Sure, it might not be as reliable, but you have to balance that against the risk of accidentally shooting and killing the wrong person. Taser would of much more likely resulted in the death of the girl in pink. The officer made the correct judgment, saved the girl in pinks life and questioning his shooting ability after he’s proven he has the skills in that situation is daft. The response time to a girl saying she is being threatened with a knife massively needs looking into, as does the foster families utter failure to control the child including kicking someone in the head rather than attempting to control their child who is attempting to stab people, resulting in her death.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:46
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Kalit posted:It would be helpful if you described what you saw happen in the body cam video, preferably step by step. If you do this, along with possible reasons for who in the video was reacting in what way (e.g. someone doing something off camera, what happened beforehand, other viewpoints that this video does not capture, etc), I think that would help out others, including myself, see your point of view a little bit better. They are probably the kind of poster that thinks cops should have super powers and be able to act perfectly in this and all other situations by stopping people getting hurt without hurting anyone... and make all these amazing assertions whilst being too scared to even watch the video, never mind be in the situation them selves.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:40
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ryde posted:Thinking that shooting was the wrong call doesn't mean that they think the cop should have just watched the girl get stabbed. Only one poster (maybe two?) made that argument. The alternatives being suggested result in it being much much more likely that the victim of the attacker gets killed. I don’t know much about American cops firearms training, but people are saying that his shooting was dangerous. I think by virtue of the outcome, it’s clear the guys got skill with a firearm at that distance, and saying he “could” of hit an innocent person is countered by the simple fact he didn’t, and that he saved the other girls life. I’m not seeing how, given the situation the cop was in, he could of acted any differently to ensure the safety of the girl that was split seconds away from being stabbed by the poor girl that was ultimately killed to prevent her killing someone. The lead up to that cop being in that situation rightly needs massive overhaul, no 15 year old should be attempting to stab people whilst their carers watch and attempt to kick girls who are on the floor in the head after she’s attacked them with a knife.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:04
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Kalit posted:I've said this before, but I think the cop could have grabbed Bryant while she was running by him to the person she was going to stab. If he would have grabbed her and pinned her arms to her side, I think it would have been safe for both the officer and her. Instead, he took that time to draw his gun. Which, like I said before, was probably instinct due to training. However, I think that grabbing her safely would have been possible in this same context. No one should ever be grabbing someone with a knife, this is utterly moronic and the exact opposite of what every police force around the world trains it’s officers to do. Please for the love of your own safety, do not ever attempt to physically restrain someone who is wielding a knife.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:58
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Fister Roboto posted:I believe that cops should not be able to able to dispense extrajudicial executions, even if it occasionally saves lives in general, and (possibly) saved a life in this specific situation. I would say that defending this as a "good shoot" is a slippery slope that will lead to more cop killings in more ambiguous circumstances, but we're already at the bottom of that slope. The idea that we need cops to kill all the scary bad guys is (part of) how we got here. So you are one the people who thinks cops should let people kill other people?
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Apr 21, 2021 22:59
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Fister Roboto posted:No, I think that cops shouldn't be able to kill people. "Cops should let people kill other people" implies that they should do nothing at all. Gumball Gumption posted:You're infected with American cowboy logic if you think that was the proper way to stop her. He has pepper spray, he has a tazer, and he has a baton. He had many non-lethal options. Everything points to this being a dude looking for an excuse and he's being given one. My invite is open to the both of you. Arm yourselves with batons and pepper sprays, I have a sharpie representing a knife, if I get marker on you or a 3rd party, they are classed as dead. It’s been established by every law enforcement agency and everyone who knows anything about physical defence that you would be covered in ink. You are utterly clueless on how to defend yourself or your loved ones. Please don’t ever try and take someone on with a knife.
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Apr 21, 2021 23:43
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:I don't see any way that the cop could have prevented the victim's likely death other than shooting the assailant. Tasers are too unreliable, grabbing someone with a knife is essentially suicidal and you don't talk down someone charging someone else with a knife, so what is the magic solution that I'm missing here? These people are clueless when it comes to knowing anything about combat or self defence. They utterly ruin the credibility of anyone criticising cops actions because they then get held up as how people who criticise the police don’t know what they are talking about, muddying the water completely when it comes to valid criticisms of horrendous police abuse and use of force. We’ve had posters claiming knives aren’t dangerous. Now we’ve got posters claiming a police officer could use a baton to take someone on who has a knife and is mid stab of a victim. It’s utterly absurd. These people have watched too many Marvel movies or something.
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Apr 21, 2021 23:49
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Josef bugman posted:More to blame then if you would prefer. If the person trying to stab someone else at fault and must be killed, then why are the people who armed and encouraged such a situation not also as guilty? Why is it only the individual to blame, as it were? The point of using deadly force isn’t to punish someone. The point is to prevent harm to victims. The girl wasn’t shot because that was her punishment, she was shot to prevent her killing someone else, and rightly so. It’s why Derek Chauvin is guilty of murder. He didn’t kill GF to prevent him killing someone else, he did it as an act of unnecessary force, making it murder. The shooting of the girl with the knife is an example of a super necessary shooting by the officer.
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Apr 21, 2021 23:54
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Fister Roboto posted:That's correct. Thank you for giving my posts an honest reading. So I’m holding a child with a gun to its head, I’m going to kill that child, you don’t think officers should take the shot to kill me to save the child, and instead wait for me to kill the baby then arrest me for murder afterwards? I don’t see how this is defensible or even understand the logic.
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Apr 21, 2021 23:57
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NoDamage posted:What are you talking about? Posting a statistic that says tasers are not 100% effective is not the slam dunk you think it is and does not prove that they shouldn't be prioritized in scenarios where there is high risk to bystanders. Their failure rate should be balanced against the failure rate of gun use (statistics of which I've posted myself) and the consequences of failure in either case. The cop in this instance successfully used his gun, he clearly had confidence in his ability to kill the attacker to prevent the attacker killing the victim and do so safely in the alternatives The failure rate and unreliability of a taser massively increases the risk to the intended victim. She was mid swing. Even if, and it’s a big if, the taser lands successfully, the electric current may not have prevented her as she was mid lunge at the victims head and throat. Are you saying you would take that risk? Not only does a taser take longer to draw, prime and fire, what if it doesn’t connect. Now you’ve got a girl with a knife who’s just stabbed someone to death, rounding on you, with said knife. You going to draw your gun and shoot now? What if she’s now stabbing someone else. What if she stabs you and then takes your gun and starts shooting people? You want to talk about statistics, meanwhile, you’ve got a cop who actually signed up for the job, saving the life of a girl who another girl tried to kill. Your armchair quarterbacking is based on what expertise and experience with combat?
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Apr 22, 2021 00:06
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Josef bugman posted:But why? The damage is the same or greater in the case of the latter? Sometimes deadly force is necessary to prevent an immediate threat. If the threat is not immediate, then deadly force is not needed. Nobody is arguing using deadly force is a good thing, it’s just necessary to prevent an immediate threat to someone else some times. Other than in that situation, deadly force isn’t necessary so won’t be used, because someone innocent isn’t literally about to die because of the person you need to stop. Alternative forms of preventing that person can then be used, like restraint and prison.
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Apr 22, 2021 00:10
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Josef bugman posted:Did the officer in this case do that though? People like myself and others have explained that yes, no humans have super powers, the only option for that police officer to realistically prevent harm to the girl who was being stabbed was to shoot the stabber. Josef bugman posted:
Give me an example of your scenario. A crime lord or someone involved in organised crime ordering hit men to execute people from behind a desk? That’s a crime, they would be arrested for their involvement in the murder and see the inside of a cell. Do they need a swat team to breach his house and shoot him in the head? No, he’s not a physical threat to anyone.
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Apr 22, 2021 00:15
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Josef bugman posted:So, it's okay to kill to prevent violence but not to do violence to people. Killing people is violent. It is ok to commit violence to prevent someone committing violence on someone innocent. I’ve punched someone recently, that’s violent, I punched them because they were strangling someone else who they shouldn’t of been strangling, it stopped them strangling that other person. I was not arrested by the filth and would of been a witness to the crime of strangulation had they not pled guilty.
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Apr 22, 2021 00:26
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Jarmak posted:Yeah, I think we're just kind of stuck on this right now because it's the only thing we have information on. I'm still expecting the cops hosed this up somehow for this situation to get to this. Lots of people have pointed out that there may have been a serious failure from across lots of different sectors for this girl to be attacking people with a knife. I think someone has pointed out that her carers, rather than stopping her getting a knife and trying to stab multiple people, were actively attempting to kick other girls she had attacked in the head after they were floored by her. That’s utter madness to me here in the UK, how in gently caress were they able to foster her.
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Apr 22, 2021 00:29
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NoDamage posted:Yes, you could miss with a taser too. Now consider what happens if you accidentally shoot a bystander with a taser versus shooting them with a gun. Are you comparing all police shootings with this exact scenario of shot. Large target, close range, car as a back stop, etc etc?
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Apr 22, 2021 00:33
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Jarmak posted:So you don't even understand what the use of force/escalation of force continuum even is. Because it's existence is there to do the literal opposite of what you're saying and is part of the evidence that was used to convict Chauvin. Move it to the other thread created for this discussion I think wound be best.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:32
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCdlcTCgdF4 It seems that now police officers are actually having to take into account they are being held responsible for incidents and seem like they are mad they have to justify themselves, although this case, like Ma'Khia Bryant, shows that even still, when it’s a fairly yet justified shooting, the body cams are the tell all. That rage and justification is now being pointed at and passed to the agencies that are letting these kids down by cops. A tiny bit of me hopes this will therefore eventually lead to some scrutiny and understanding how underfunded all these social programs are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEAPNQLIDTs willie_dee fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 09:01
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https://twitter.com/jelani9/status/1403404812423675904?s=21 This is great.
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Jun 12, 2021 12:49
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