|
Jaxyon posted:How does it undermine it? Because the power disparity lends the story to a Marxist readings. In reality, those with outrageous power should be kept in check.
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 03:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 09:38 |
|
|
killer crane posted:Because the power disparity lends the story to a Marxist readings. In reality, those with outrageous power should be kept in check. I thought it was “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” Not “Those with greater ability should be isolated and tightly controlled.” (I’m sorry, I don’t why I’ve fallen to random shitposting now.) DreamingofRoses fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Aug 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 03:23
|
|
|
edit: i think i misread the above post. i'll make these points more constructively
Horizon Burning fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Aug 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 04:00
|
|
|
Horizon Burning posted:edit: i think i misread the above post. i'll make these points more constructively I was being glib but I’ll reword it to be clearer. (I hope. Like I said, I’m not great at writing.) The idea that a Marxist reading of this isn’t “people with extraordinary abilities should be held accountable in providing to their community, but the community should also be held accountable to providing for their actual needs” but “because they’re scary and have abilities that most people don’t have and might do something wrong with it, the community has the right to basically enslave them to make sure that they use their abilities properly, including benefiting off of the use of their labor” feels off.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 11:00
|
|
|
DreamingofRoses posted:Having power is not the same thing as being superior, unless you think that by dint of being naturally stronger with less effort men are superior to women in general. You’re confusing the description of ‘people who are dangerous’ through ability with ‘people who are better’. It is insane that you think this is what is happening in the mind of the person you are replying to. Imagine trying to tell that first sentence to any of these magic earthquake wizards in a world where they haven't been thrown in a torture oubliette their entire lives and expecting anything but getting flash frozen for the offense of speaking to them in the first place. DreamingofRoses posted:I mean, I get where you’re coming from, I just find it as the application of the concepts of working towards justice and equality in a magic world specifically meant to mirror the caprice and inherent unfairness and hostility that exists in the real universe. We have different approaches to the text and that’s fine. The argument here is whether or not it is a serviceable mirror. Syphilicious! fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Aug 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 11:54
|
|
|
Syphilicious! posted:It is insane that you think this is what is happening in the mind of the person you are replying to. People born with a uterus are the only ones who can carry children to term, and children are vital to the survival of the species, therefore people with uteruses are able to act as tyrants in directing the way society behaves since they are the ones who are able to control the birth rate. Do you see how absurd that sounds? AFAB people make up over 50% of the world’s population, and yet it has been an actual struggle for anything approaching bodily autonomy. Why? Because they are not a monolith. Apply to orogenes. Why would orogenes apply their power in such a way if given free reign? If there was an orogene who went that far off the deep end, why wouldn’t the other orogenes act to preserve the status quo and take that person down, especially when someone using seismic shifts regularly for their own advantage affects the likelihood of inducing a Fifth Season for everyone. There would be plenty of orogenes who make the same argument y’all are: that they are dangerous and need to be tightly controlled for the safety of everyone. What kind of effect do you think that’s going to have on their in-group? To respond to your second point: right, that’s the argument we’re having now. You’re approaching it from your life experience and I’m approaching it from mine. It makes sense that they differ because we have different experiences and have seen different sides of people. DreamingofRoses fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Aug 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 13:00
|
|
|
It sounds absurd, just as the previous analogies to muscular men vs. weak women or sighted people vs. the blind or the musically gifted vs. the tonedeaf have sounded absurd, because they are. The comparison simply doesn't map. I think you already know how men have, for the vast majority of history, decided to solve the problem of AFAB people "controlling the birth rate". That is not in any way a useful analog for understand the world Jemisin is supposing. The power orogenes have can only be counteracted by other orogenes or, if I remember correctly from when I read the first book several years ago, some kind of magic nullification rock. Apart from their magic and their extra brain organs (are they located somewhere else in the body? I forget), however, orogenes are shown to be entirely and tragically human, and that means that they will apply their power not when they go "that far off the deep end", but whenever the opportunity first presents itself as advantageous...and that doesn't even account for the accidental use of it through emotional response as previously discussed. Every time this power disparity is pointed out, as well as the inevitable bodycount that surely occurs any time an orogene has a shitfit without the discipline necessary to control themselves or simply says to hell with it, it is in turn pointed out that non-orogenes can do the same thing with, say, a gun...but again, the comparison does not map, and it is not useful. This premise is fantastical precisely *because* it has no easy real-world comparison, but it also has no easy solution. Being nice to orogenes and not viciously oppressing them would prevent a self-interested group of orogenes from establishing a predatory caste system for all of maybe five minutes. That doesn't mean that oppressing them is good, or desirable. It just means that the world that has been supposed here is one without any happy endings.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 13:25
|
|
|
killer crane posted:Because the power disparity lends the story to a Marxist readings. In reality, those with outrageous power should be kept in check. What you and people are fundamentally saying, when you say that the power levels undercut any sort of story of oppression, is that if you're scared enough of someone's agency then the oppression is at some level justified. You're not saying the slavery, rape, child abuse, segregation etc are undercutting the story. You're saying the character's agency is. Which means you believe at some level that those things are justified by the danger you perceive form those it is happening to. Those things are never justified. Syphilicious! posted:It is insane that you think this is what is happening in the mind of the person you are replying to. So now we're saying that the story she wrote undercuts her message because you can't help rewriting it so that the people that scare you are the oppressors? That the only thing keeping them from doing so is the "torture oubliette" which is now justified by your dichotomy? That's quite a reaction.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 17:16
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:What you and people are fundamentally saying, when you say that the power levels undercut any sort of story of oppression, is that if you're scared enough of someone's agency then the oppression is at some level justified. Literally, nobody is saying that or anything even remotely close and I don't know if you're stupid, or a troll, of the Venn diagram is actually just a circle.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 17:31
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:What you and people are fundamentally saying, when you say that the power levels undercut any sort of story of oppression, is that if you're scared enough of someone's agency then the oppression is at some level justified. You're conflating "agency" with "the ability to destroy towns and cities with a thought" pseudanonymous posted:Literally, nobody is saying that or anything even remotely close and I don't know if you're stupid, or a troll, of the Venn diagram is actually just a circle. Oh yep now it makes sense.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 17:55
|
|
|
Sarern posted:You're conflating "agency" with "the ability to destroy towns and cities with a thought" But you guys are basically saying that they are no longer entitled to be treated with equal rights and dignity as other humans because of something they were born with that they can’t help having. The only argument you have that this is justified is the level of damage that an individual can do without ever establishing why they would be more inclined to do that sort of damage than the average person would if they had that ability. At work so I can’t do a full response to everyone, but that’s what y’all’s argument boils down to. “It’s okay because they’re right to be scared. The reasonableness or ability to control themselves when taught doesn’t matter, there’s always the ‘what if?’ that doesn’t justify them being treated equally.” And I’m not condemning you guys for that, or trying to say the concern isn’t valid. You’re right, they do have the ability to take down a city with effort, or kill a person on accident. It’s just a differing opinion of what does a community/society owe to those who might prove a danger to it. DreamingofRoses fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Aug 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:07
|
|
|
DreamingofRoses posted:But you guys are basically saying that they are no longer entitled to be treated with equal rights and dignity as other humans because of something they were born with that they can’t help having. The only argument you have that this is justified is the level of damage that an individual can do without ever establishing why they would be more inclined to do that sort of damage than the average person would if they had that ability. At work so I can’t do a full response to everyone, but that’s what y’all’s argument boils down to. “It’s okay because they’re right to be scared. The reasonableness or ability to control themselves when taught doesn’t matter, there’s always the ‘what if?’ that doesn’t justify them being treated equally.” Nope. Please learn to read.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:18
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:Literally, nobody is saying that or anything even remotely close and I don't know if you're stupid, or a troll, of the Venn diagram is actually just a circle. The person I quoted literally said the it was ridiculous to imagine orogenes as anything but oversensitive murder machines if they weren't able to be raised in a "torture oubliette". Sarern posted:You're conflating "agency" with "the ability to destroy towns and cities with a thought" Yes that's what we're talking about. If someone is able to hurt the oppressor class enough, then the oppression is justified. Just imagine it was "slave uprisings" instead of "orogenic tectonic magic"
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:18
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:Nope. Please learn to read. Please tell me what I’m missing then? [q uote="Jaxyon" post="516934035"] The person I quoted literally said the it was ridiculous to imagine orogenes as anything but oversensitive murder machines if they weren't able to be raised in a "torture oubliette”. [/quote] TBF I think the oubliette was in reference to the theoretical non-orogene as part of their torture/comeuppance, not the orogene’s raising. DreamingofRoses fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Aug 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:23
|
|
|
^^^ Are you expecting well thought out critique from the angry one-liner poster?pseudanonymous posted:Nope. Please learn to read. Please learn to think.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:23
|
|
|
DreamingofRoses posted:The only argument you have that this is justified is the level of damage that an individual can do without ever establishing why they would be more inclined to do that sort of damage than the average person would if they had that ability. They would probably be exactly as inclined to do that sort of damage as the average person would be if they had that ability. That level of inclination is called "very inclined". Jaxyon posted:If someone is able to hurt the oppressor class enough, then the oppression is justified. Again, the analogy is not serviceable, so why would we imagine that? Arguing over the justifiedness of the proactive violence of oppressors or the reactive violence of the oppressed in this fictional society with its fictional history is secondary to the inevitable problem presented by the very nature of orogenic power as it is described. It doesn't matter what kind of fictional society you drop these superpowered people into: as long as they and the people around them are human, after a year you will inevitably have enough flash-frozen toddlers to make your own adorable terra cotta army. Syphilicious! fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Aug 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:27
|
|
|
Syphilicious! posted:They would probably be exactly as inclined to do that sort of damage as the average person would be if they had that ability. That level of inclination is called "very inclined". So based on that assumption their torture, rape and, enslavement is justified? Just so we're clear.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:29
|
|
|
Syphilicious! posted:They would probably be exactly as inclined to do that sort of damage as the average person would be if they had that ability. That level of inclination is called "very inclined". Why do you think that? It’s very hard to get people to deliberately kill other people that they don’t have a connection to
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:34
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:So based on that assumption their torture, rape and, enslavement is justified? No. How exactly a society could possibly justly solve the obvious problems presented by a class of superhumans with innately deadly and innately uncontrollable superpowers is an interesting question, but not one I have the answer to offhand, certainly not within the parameters Jemisin has provided. Certainly "everyone should be nice to the orogenes" isn't a solution, because again, they are depicted as entirely human apart from the supernatural powers, and anyone who has ever been on the wrong end of a power dynamic lever can probably tell you just how reliably niceness prevents the human beings on the other end from leaning on it. DreamingofRoses posted:Why do you think that? It’s very hard to get people to deliberately kill other people that they don’t have a connection to Allow me to politely refer you to the sum total of human experience.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:37
|
|
|
DreamingofRoses posted:Please tell me what I’m missing then? People are saying that racism and the kind of chattel, race-based slavery practiced in the United States was wholly based on ignorance, bigotry, lies, and propaganda, and there was not a single grain of truth to the idea that people of African descent were dangerous or animals or should be held in bondage. When a story is written that is obviously (and by admission of the author) in part about that kind of slavery and racism, but the people who are being held in bondage have magical powers that make them dangerous, then at least some of the treatment of them being different is based on real things, real legitimate fears. Nobody is delving into how exactly they should be treated differently or saying that what goes on in the books is correct or justified. Just that it's not the same thing as what happened in the real world to justify slavery. What you and Jaxyon are really saying is that you're race realists. You think that black people are actually different from white people, in a biological sense, but we should just treat everyone the same anyway. And you're wrong. White people and Black people are not different in a meaningful biological way. It's the same problem with poo poo like Bright. Bright isn't about racism, because if orcs are a real thing, then treating black people badly and treating orcs badly are not analogous situations.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:37
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:People are saying that racism and the kind of chattel, race-based slavery practiced in the United States was wholly based on ignorance, bigotry, lies, and propaganda, and there was not a single grain of truth to the idea that people of African descent were dangerous or animals or should be held in bondage. I’m not making my meaning clear, if that’s what you’re taking from my argument. Would you say AMAB and AFAB people are born with significant biological differences?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:41
|
|
|
DreamingofRoses posted:I’m not making my meaning clear, if that’s what you’re taking from my argument. Would you say AMAB and AFAB people are born with significant biological differences? Do I think that gender assignment, which is a societal construct, is the same thing as biological sex? No? I'm aware of what the definition of salient words are.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:47
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:Do I think that gender assignment, which is a societal construct, is the same thing as biological sex? Okay, are the biological sexes born significantly biologically different than one another? I’m not trying to trap you, you can stop acting like I’m coming for you personally.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:49
|
|
|
DreamingofRoses posted:Okay, are the biological sexes born significantly biologically different than one another? I’m not trying to trap you, you can stop acting like I’m coming for you personally. I think that biological sex is not binary, but there are useful distinctions to be made between people of various sexes that can be helpful for things like medicine yes.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:52
|
|
|
DreamingofRoses posted:I’m not making my meaning clear, if that’s what you’re taking from my argument. Would you say AMAB and AFAB people are born with significant biological differences? I think by jumping to the conclusion "by your logic you are both race realists", pseudanonymous is making the same mistake you are, or at least being uncharitable. I think the original point he's trying to make is the same as mine, however: the analogy does not work. The oppression of oppressed peoples on Earth and the oppression of orogenes in the Broken Earth are not similar enough for the lessons of justice and liberation in our Earth to pertain in the Broken Earth. If you insist on having some kind of analogy to help work out orogone oppression with rather than trying to engage with the Broken Earth's situation in isolation, then perhaps imagine orcs like from Bright, but with exaggerated characteristics: altered humans born to humans, orcness being a somewhat reliably inherited but also pretty randomly spontaneous 'condition' in which they grow up to be ten feet tall on average, Arnie-level musclebound, and, most importantly, inherently and irretrievably prone to berserker-level fits of brief but undiscriminating blood rage triggered every time they are roused to anger, either through accident (stubbed toe) or intention (stabbed in the stomach or cheated on). Putting these orcs I have just described in the same Hellraiser rape dungeon/slave caste situation that orogenes are in would surely not be just, but everyone putting their best effort into treating them as brethren just like you or me, cherished for their warmth and valued for their ability to, I don't know, move big rocks or whatever...that wouldn't be particularly 'just' either, or at least not particularly effective. It's hard to actually think of any societal arrangement that would allow these orcs I have supposed to coexist in relative peace with regular old humans, in fact. That's the issue.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:53
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:If someone is able to hurt the oppressor class enough, then the oppression is justified. We've gone through this. Essun and Alabaster blowing up bad guys with turbocharged explosions isn't the same as a slave revolt, because an actual slave revolt requires a bunch of slaves to get together while Essun can just do a bunch of magic on her own. This is the point. It's not possible to imagine the orogenic magic as a slave revolt, because it reads more like the traditional white man sci-fi where the protagonist discovers he's inherited some kind of bullshit power and people want to oppress him because they're jealous of it. At worst you could easily repurpose the metaphor for dumbass Nazis whining about being oppressed by political correctness. This is what we're arguing, we are not arguing that slavery and child molestation are justified when done to magical wizards, we are arguing that the metaphor Jemisin uses does not work for the story she wants to tell. Essun and the gang ultimately appeasing the oppressive Evil Earth by doing exactly what it wants so it disbands the evil Guardian conspiracy is not exactly helping your case.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:54
|
|
|
Edit: not worth it
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 18:59
|
|
|
Syphilicious! posted:I think by jumping to the conclusion "by your logic you are both race realists", pseudanonymous is making the same mistake you are, or at least being uncharitable. Or just doing it to show how absurd it is when that kind of logic is used on your own arguments, and how rhetorical tricks like saying "what you mean is" are not a way to useful discussion. Or just being an rear end in a top hat it is something awful after all.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 19:04
|
|
|
I don't believe in real life earth bending wizards, so I'm taking them as symbolizing the oppressed. And, by extension, the oppression of wizards is also symbolic. I don't know why you'd be stuck believing the wizards symbolize real world people, but the oppression has to be exactly literal. What's good about the book is that it is great liberation fantasy, and depicts systemic generational oppression better than most any other fantasy book. It falls apart when you try to apply the oppressed wizards to the real world, and who they, and their power seem to symbolize. The power difference between a normal person in the story and an orogene is magnitudes apart. It's not a different power in their world, it's the only power, and the people without power are exploiting those with power. That's all pretty normal liberation fantasy. But the powers themselves are absolutely destructive, and harmful. The author handwaves it at one point, saying the only reason it's destructive is because of the oppression, but then also has Alabaster commit heroic genocide using the power. Trying to apply that to the powers of repressed groups in the real world is really not a good look. So I'm stuck asking who in the real world has immense power to do harm that others don't, feels oppressed, and feels shackled by those without power? It just seems like libertarian liberation fantasy at that point.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 19:07
|
|
|
"heroic genocide" Did we read the same book? Is it necessary for him to be killed and someone say "he was bad and deserved this because of the genocide, which was bad" for you to understand that it was not being condoned?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
The author makes it a point that his committing genocide leads directly to saving the world. It was depicted as heroic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 19:18
|
|
|
killer crane posted:The author makes it a point that his committing genocide leads directly to saving the world. It was depicted as heroic. Because it was depicted from his POV, at least the actual act was. DreamingofRoses fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Aug 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 19:26
|
|
|
The act was from his point of view, but the act was necessary to release the power to catch the moon. Committing genocide was a critical component in saving the world.
killer crane fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Aug 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 19:34
|
|
|
Really makes you think...
Syphilicious! fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Aug 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 19:41
|
|
|
Should we mark spoilers?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 19:43
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:We've gone through this. Essun and Alabaster blowing up bad guys with turbocharged explosions isn't the same as a slave revolt, because an actual slave revolt requires a bunch of slaves to get together while Essun can just do a bunch of magic on her own. This is the point. It's not possible to imagine the orogenic magic as a slave revolt, because it reads more like the traditional white man sci-fi where the protagonist discovers he's inherited some kind of bullshit power and people want to oppress him because they're jealous of it. At worst you could easily repurpose the metaphor for dumbass Nazis whining about being oppressed by political correctness. This is what we're arguing, we are not arguing that slavery and child molestation are justified when done to magical wizards, we are arguing that the metaphor Jemisin uses does not work for the story she wants to tell. So the slave revolt metaphor doesn't work because the orogenes actually have the ability to win versus the oppressors? The story would only work if, like black people in the united states, the oppressors were not in any more than temporary danger?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 19:52
|
|
|
killer crane posted:The act was from his point of view, but the act was necessary to release the power to catch the moon. Committing genocide was a critical component in saving the world. I mean it's not as if there could be a metaphor there in having to destroy an old regime to achieve an end to oppression. From the view of most of the people in these books, committing genocide against orogenes was a critical component of saving the world. Except they did it, time and time again, for millenia, and tortured them in between.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 19:55
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:So the slave revolt metaphor doesn't work because the orogenes actually have the ability to win versus the oppressors? Those aren't uncharitable interpretations of what we are saying, they are entirely nonsensical interpretations. What part of 'the power relationship described simply does not translate' is so hard to grasp?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 20:08
|
|
|
Syphilicious! posted:Those aren't uncharitable interpretations of what we are saying, they are entirely nonsensical. What part of 'the power relationship described simply does not translate' is so hard to grasp? I'm just replying to what people are arguing. So far I'm seeing two main arguments 1) The author has created a bad story because oppression is somewhat justified when the victims are powerful wizards who can kill with a thought. This is a bad take because oppression is never justified. The unbelievable cruelty that orogenes face is something nobody deservers, no matter how dangerous 2) The author has created a bad story because the victims are so powerful they would never realistically be oppressed This is a bad take because it implies that if someone was capable of not being oppressed they would not be oppressed. Just like any other people you can be powerful unique and agent and still be the victim of oppression.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 20:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 09:38 |
|
|
killer crane posted:The author makes it a point that his committing genocide leads directly to saving the world. It was depicted as heroic. But enough about Eren Jaeger
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2021 20:15
|
|
