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Having reproduced I definitely feel like I now owe my kids an apology but outside of it becoming necessary to ‘kill all humans’ I don’t think the category of reproduction can be amoral. Reproduction is part of the definition of life. Any specific scenario might be moral or not but the idea in general is a necessity.
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Apr 3, 2021 21:35
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OwlFancier posted:The actual experience you undergo over the course of your life. Not your lovely after the fact recollection or apprehension of it... What’s so special about the actual event? I mean the theoretical torture sucked for whatever entity experienced but if I don’t have that experience... not sure why I care beyond caring that people should never be tortured in general.
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Apr 3, 2021 23:03
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OwlFancier posted:Because the entire point of the OP's question necessitates that you care what happens to other people, i.e your children. If you do not care what happens to other people at all then the question is entirely moot to begin with, as indeed is the entire concept of "morality" for the most part. Well tbf your last bit is the real answer, but outside of that I prefer to care by giving comfort and support, not hyperfixating on the ledger book. I’ll care about what they care about and I will do my best to improve the environment to whatever extent I can. I mean I’m not saying you’re wrong if you think you shouldn’t reproduce. That seems like a perfectly reasonable choice. I’m just not seeing a way to then say that doing so is immoral.
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Apr 4, 2021 00:00
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Harold Fjord posted:What about ai? Is it ethical to invent a creature which can suffer? Feels like the same question as having children. I think the act itself is not intrinsically unethical but it really depends on what you do for it and for the world around you.
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Apr 6, 2021 14:46
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some plague rats posted:Do you think it diminishes his point at all that Gramsci went on to have multiple children? Apparently building the next generation of revolutionaries is also a moral imperative.
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Apr 7, 2021 23:37
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CountryMatters posted:Nihilism is fake bullshit mate. It's 100% a cope. #notallnihilists. You don’t have to be an ascerbic prick just because you believe nothing has meaning or even has the physical existence we think things have.
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Apr 10, 2021 14:39
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Josef bugman posted:Depression, doesn't necessarily mean that you are wrong. Of course it doesn't make you right either! Life exists, but it doesn't follow that it will reproduce unless it wishes to. It's not a fundamental law like gravity, but it is a personal or societal law I will agree on that. Reproduction is part of the defining premises for what life is. If it doesn’t reproduce it isn’t life. Individual parts of it might not reproduce, but reproduction is a necessary condition for life.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:12
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Josef bugman posted:How do those two bits match up? Well you see when two people get drunk and forget how much they loath each other... But now we’re talking about a particular instance of reproduction, not the ongoing reproduction of the species as a whole.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:21
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Josef bugman posted:That doesn't neccesarily make it moral though, does it? Just because it's something that a lot of people do doesn't mean it is a moral idea, it is simply something that is. Again, do take your point. It means morality isn’t a valid consideration. It’s not a moral question. And no, it’s not that the species is made up of us or that life is made up of all the various forms of life. We are all part of it.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:25
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Josef bugman posted:Everything is a moral question though, surely? All of our "selfhood" all of the ideas and questions and existence itself needs to be seen through a moral lens. We can't just opt out of certain bits because "oh well, you know" can we? A moral filter is but one of the many heuristics we use to navigate the world. We can opt out of any moral imperative if we choose... the benefit of a complex prefrontal cortex.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:37
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Josef bugman posted:But, at least according to how Beelzebufo reasons we can't just "opt out" of moral reasoning. The moral imperitive matters more than the view of our own interior view of the world. Or, to be fair it "should" matter more. Nothing can matter more than my internal view of my own world. At best anything I care about is a facet of that internal view, not some abstract fact of reality. I utterly disagree with the claim that morality does or should matter more.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:00
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Josef bugman posted:That seems a somewhat solipsistic way of viewing things, if you don't mind me saying so. Because every level of our sensory systems, cognitive systems, and memory recall systems are highly lossy systems that are, at best, optimized for our survival not for a hi fidelity recreation of reality. Whatever you think you are experiencing is a product of your own mind and that is all you can ever possibly have access to. You are wholly abstracted from reality. You can never get out of your own mind.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:34
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Soul_ posted:Edit: I guess what you're saying makes sense if you're only talking about the binary question of whether we should reproduce at all. But not if it's just about how and when. Spot on... AN act of reproduction can have a moral aspect to it. THE act of reproduction doesn't.
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Apr 14, 2021 19:26
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