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NewMars
Mar 10, 2013
If there's one thing I've noticed between mass recall and remastered, it's that mass recall is much harder. Probably as a consequence of compensating for all the UI upgrades that would lower the difficulty floor, but there's more enemies, units feel more fragile and drat if the AI raids aren't far more annoying.

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JohnKilltrane
Dec 30, 2020

Cythereal posted:

I don't mind how easy this mission is, personally. It's the third mission out of 30 (32 if you're using the 'secret' missions), and Blizzard's still easing the player into things. This mission explicitly teaches you about repairing, about static defenses, adds a new production facility, and the enemy bases on this map are fully equipped for the first time in the campaign.

Oh, whoops, I didn't mean to complain about the difficulty. It's technically still in the "tutorial-ish" run of missions so I agree that it's entirely appropriate. It being easy is just something that gets me because I thought it was just so drat difficult as a kid haha.

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Cheating at a raffle? I sentence you to 1 year in jail! No! Two years! Three! Four! Five years! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!
Somebody call for an ant?

NewMars posted:

If there's one thing I've noticed between mass recall and remastered, it's that mass recall is much harder. Probably as a consequence of compensating for all the UI upgrades that would lower the difficulty floor, but there's more enemies, units feel more fragile and drat if the AI raids aren't far more annoying.

Yeah, the disclaimer on difficulty can't be reiterated enough. Especially the harder settings were designed by people who had been playing lots and lots of starcraft II. It is stupidly harder than sc1.

Aces High
Mar 26, 2010

Nah! A little chocolate will do




JohnKilltrane posted:

Oh, whoops, I didn't mean to complain about the difficulty. It's technically still in the "tutorial-ish" run of missions so I agree that it's entirely appropriate. It being easy is just something that gets me because I thought it was just so drat difficult as a kid haha.

yeah when I first played this I was in a panic for the final 5 minutes. though to be fair, I didn't understand simple mechanics like "build more than the starting amount of SCVs" until around when SC2 came out soooooo yeah :v:

JeffRaze
Mar 13, 2021
There sure are a lot of mechanics I didn't know about as a kid. A screenshot LP like this is actually really nice for being informative, definitely enjoying this so far.

lobster22221
Jul 11, 2017

mr_stibbons posted:

There's also the tendency of the campaign structure to never really encourage you to be efficient with your units in the same way multiplayer does, to the point that using a unit with finite ammo well.


I think that really says more about how broken down and optimized multiplayer has become than it does about how single player is. Starcraft has been around so long and examined and reexamined that strategy is and has been for a long time been broken down and reexamined again and again by professional play. Starcraft single player isn't the easiest game, but Blizzard didn't design it to match up to competitive standards.

Klaus88
Jan 23, 2011

Violence has its own economy, therefore be thoughtful and precise in your investment
This is even more apparent in SC2 where singleplayer and multiplayer are balanced separately.

cuc
Nov 25, 2013

NewMars posted:

If there's one thing I've noticed between mass recall and remastered, it's that mass recall is much harder. Probably as a consequence of compensating for all the UI upgrades that would lower the difficulty floor, but there's more enemies, units feel more fragile and drat if the AI raids aren't far more annoying.
You can also try the UEDAIP mod for Remastered, which purports to update the original campaigns for experienced players. Remastered's anti-piracy scheme is unfriendly to modding, so there are a few more hoops to jump through.

NewMars
Mar 10, 2013

cuc posted:

You can also try the UEDAIP mod for Remastered, which purports to update the original campaigns for experienced players. Remastered's anti-piracy scheme is unfriendly to modding, so there are a few more hoops to jump through.

I was complaining about the difficulty, though.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

FoolyCharged posted:

Yeah, the disclaimer on difficulty can't be reiterated enough. Especially the harder settings were designed by people who had been playing lots and lots of starcraft II. It is stupidly harder than sc1.

One interesting note about that is that I've found spider mines actually pretty useful! I forget whether the game does this in the base/remastered game, but in Mass Recall, Raynor has spider mines when he's on his vulture, and I've found them handy for helping deal with attack waves that come in before you can build a more conventional defense.

JohnKilltrane
Dec 30, 2020

Cythereal posted:

One interesting note about that is that I've found spider mines actually pretty useful! I forget whether the game does this in the base/remastered game

It sure does! Hero units (with one notable exception) always automatically have all their abilities researched, even if you couldn't normally research those abilities. We could have been making use of Spider Mines since mission 1, but I opted to wait until this mission to introduce them. These first few tutorial-y missions are extremely :words: on my end so I've been trying to spread things out at least a little.

Pooncha
Feb 15, 2014

Making the impossible possumable
Building Spotlight: Supply Depot


Manual posted:

The Supply Depot houses all of the goods, tools, and accessories that are necessary in the day-to-day running of Terran outposts. As various encampments grow and prosper, it is necessary to provide an ever-increasing amount of supplies for colonists and military forces alike.

Building Costs:
100
0
25

Stats:
500
1
+8 Supply Max

The Supply Depot's stated purpose is to increase the cap of your current Supply by 8. More Supply means more units on the field, so you'll end up building a lot of these over the course of the campaign. However, given how cheap and quick they are to build, and their respective bulk for the buck, Supply Depots can also serve the secondary function of makeshift barricades to protect more valuable units and buildings, and it's not uncommon to see matches where Terran players "wall" strategic locations and chokepoints with Supply Depots to stop scouts and most forms of early-game assaults in their tracks, provided that the player is on point with keeping the buildings repaired.

This is one example of a "wall":



Here, Red Terran is using Supply Depots and a Barracks to hold the top of a slope. If you've read the update on the previous page, you know how effective being on high ground is before a barricade enters the equation. Melee units have to deal with the wall in the way to get at their attackers, and ranged units engage at a disadvantage due to lower ground. In the campaign, barricading is a tactic that borders on cheesing because it also takes advantage of the StarCraft AI's tendency to prioritize threatening units, so enemies will end up faffing outside the wall while your units kill them with (near) impunity. As early as this mission, having a barricade will stop the Zerglings cold with the only complications being the Hydralisks and Mutalisks, since they can shoot over the barricade or bypass it entirely.

All that said, Supply Depots do have the problem of taking up quite a bit of room, and unlike the Command Center they can't lift off, so a big portion of a late-game Terran base will be dedicated to Supply Depots. Fortunately, by the time of the sequel they're smaller and retractable:


Image by Boarguts on DeviantArt.

Pooncha fucked around with this message at 09:37 on May 4, 2021

mr_stibbons
Aug 18, 2019

Klaus88 posted:

This is even more apparent in SC2 where singleplayer and multiplayer are balanced separately.

This was one of the best decisions that the sequel ever made. It's becoming clear to me that the design goals for singleplayer and multiplayer RTS games are fundamentally at odds. Unless you have SC2's astronomical budget, better to pick one and do it well, than half rear end both.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
Another warning to anyone thinking about trying Mass Recall: turns out that on hard difficulty, Mass Recall bans certain units on some missions, just for that extra little bit of artificial difficulty.

Dr Christmas
Apr 24, 2010

Berninating the one percent,
Berninating the Wall St.
Berninating all the people
In their high rise penthouses!
🔥😱🔥🔫👴🏻
My first experience with Starcraft was the N64 version!

In that version of the mission you just covered, you could win the mission early by destroying all the Zerg hatcheries. You can do so here to cripple the Zerg, but you’ll still have to wait until the end.

ChaosStar0
Apr 6, 2021

I won this one by destroying all the Zerg bases once. I mostly just wait out the timer though. I always had trouble because I never built three bunkers at the entrances or used Spider Mines. That final wave is brutal and I've lost many times with less than 10 seconds left on the clock.

Klaus88
Jan 23, 2011

Violence has its own economy, therefore be thoughtful and precise in your investment

mr_stibbons posted:

This was one of the best decisions that the sequel ever made. It's becoming clear to me that the design goals for singleplayer and multiplayer RTS games are fundamentally at odds. Unless you have SC2's astronomical budget, better to pick one and do it well, than half rear end both.

This also neatly avoids a particular issue where balance changes intended for multiplayer can make the single player much harder or even impossible in some extreme cases.

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.



JeffRaze posted:

There sure are a lot of mechanics I didn't know about as a kid. A screenshot LP like this is actually really nice for being informative, definitely enjoying this so far.
At some point I've found a "stutter step" explanation on youtube and it blew my mind.

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010
I played a huge amount of Dune II, Warcraft and Starcraft when they were new. I haven't really touched an RTS since then though other than Sins of a Solar Empire (which probably counts) so I am enjoying this.

Also, SSLPs are gods intended LP format.

edit: Also a few of the early Command and Conquers.

Aces High
Mar 26, 2010

Nah! A little chocolate will do




videos can be good, but I think that's more for showing off quirky things in a level like how god mode can break scripts, or speedrun tricks that can turn an hour long basebuilding mission into a 30 second mad dash to the objective

ChaosStar0
Apr 6, 2021

I personally prefer Video LPs. There are few games that are better as Screenshot in my opinion, mostly those with little going on screen.

NewMars
Mar 10, 2013
I like screenshot ones because for some reason I just can't get interested in video LP's at all.

JohnKilltrane
Dec 30, 2020

Pooncha posted:

Building Spotlight: Supply Depot

Duuuuude, this is amazing. Do you mind if I add your building posts to the updates, under your name? It's totally a no pressure thing, if tomorrow you wake up and you're like "Man, gently caress Starcraft buildings" that's totally cool too, zero obligation.

mr_stibbons posted:

This was one of the best decisions that the sequel ever made. It's becoming clear to me that the design goals for singleplayer and multiplayer RTS games are fundamentally at odds. Unless you have SC2's astronomical budget, better to pick one and do it well, than half rear end both.

Yeah, it's real nice. I'm not a big fan of SC2's campaign storywise, but in terms of actual gameplay it's real, real good. I especially like their approach of "This is the campaign so we can give the player all sorts of toys that would be completely insane in multiplayer." And bringing the campaign-style approach to multiplayer with Co-op Missions was genius. SC2 Co-op is probably the most fun I've had with casual multiplayer in a strategy game since the heyday of TFT and BW custom games. Oh, and AoE 2 LAN parties.

Aces High posted:

or speedrun tricks that can turn an hour long basebuilding mission into a 30 second mad dash to the objective

I have no comment at this time.

JeffRaze
Mar 13, 2021
There are only a handful of people I'd watch video LPs from, but I love SSLPs

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Think you'll show off any of the extra stuff? IE, Enslavers, Precursors, Operation Silent Scream/Biting The Bullet or Deception/Mercenaries II/Resurrection IV?

Wouldn't blame you for not showing off Insurrection/Retribution because those are like 60 missions but the other stuff adds up to another 12 or so which isn't as bad.

braybray posted:

As a child, the Wilhem Scream that plays whenever you select the Academy made me hate playing as Terran. It was weirdly uncomfortable and scared me (I was 6 at the time I played it). It is strange that such a specific interaction helped to make me like playing as Protoss over Terrans, even now.

As a newer player, almost no-one used Stimpaks because Marines and Firebats had no way to restore HP. Once you learn the benefit far outweighs the cost of 10 hp, it's an amazing feeling to see 40 Marines chew through any unit with their rifles. It is amazing how tech researches are so important in SC, even in 2 where armor upgrades mean surviving an extra attack from key enemy units. It is remarkable how this game ended up being balanced so well despite the moving parts everywhere.

To be fair, Starcraft balance was pretty bad before Brood War.


JohnKilltrane posted:


Yeah, it's real nice. I'm not a big fan of SC2's campaign storywise, but in terms of actual gameplay it's real, real good. I especially like their approach of "This is the campaign so we can give the player all sorts of toys that would be completely insane in multiplayer." And bringing the campaign-style approach to multiplayer with Co-op Missions was genius. SC2 Co-op is probably the most fun I've had with casual multiplayer in a strategy game since the heyday of TFT and BW custom games. Oh, and AoE 2 LAN parties.



Imo HotS campaign wasn't even that good. Wings had all kinds of cool powerful abilities, entirely new units, super units, and so on.

HotS had... Abberations? :effort:

NewMars posted:

If there's one thing I've noticed between mass recall and remastered, it's that mass recall is much harder. Probably as a consequence of compensating for all the UI upgrades that would lower the difficulty floor, but there's more enemies, units feel more fragile and drat if the AI raids aren't far more annoying.

Mass Recall is partially harder because of how much easier the SC1 campaign would be with basic quality of life stuff like not needing to manually assign every SCV to start mining and units not tripping on themselves.


To Slay The Beast is a fuckin nightmare. Moreso than it already is, I mean. :v:

ChaosStar0 posted:

I personally prefer Video LPs. There are few games that are better as Screenshot in my opinion, mostly those with little going on screen.

A lot of the SC campaign is dead air honestly, SS lets you cut most of the chaff.

Cythereal posted:

Another warning to anyone thinking about trying Mass Recall: turns out that on hard difficulty, Mass Recall bans certain units on some missions, just for that extra little bit of artificial difficulty.

Huh, I don't remember that.

Brutal does add boss units though.

Acerbatus fucked around with this message at 22:35 on May 4, 2021

Pooncha
Feb 15, 2014

Making the impossible possumable

JohnKilltrane posted:

Duuuuude, this is amazing. Do you mind if I add your building posts to the updates, under your name? It's totally a no pressure thing, if tomorrow you wake up and you're like "Man, gently caress Starcraft buildings" that's totally cool too, zero obligation.

Feel free! :) And if anyone has extra bits to add because they know the meta better than me, that'll be great to add too.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Pooncha posted:

Building Spotlight: Supply Depot



Building Costs:
100
0
25

Stats:
500
1
+8 Supply Max

The Supply Depot's stated purpose is to increase the cap of your current Supply by 8. More Supply means more units on the field, so you'll end up building a lot of these over the course of the campaign. However, given how cheap and quick they are to build, and their respective bulk for the buck, Supply Depots can also serve the secondary function of makeshift barricades to protect more valuable units and buildings, and it's not uncommon to see matches where Terran players "wall" strategic locations and chokepoints with Supply Depots to stop scouts and most forms of early-game assaults in their tracks, provided that the player is on point with keeping the buildings repaired.

This is one example of a "wall":



Here, Red Terran is using Supply Depots and a Barracks to hold the top of a slope. If you've read the update on the previous page, you know how effective being on high ground is before a barricade enters the equation. Melee units have to deal with the wall in the way to get at their attackers, and ranged units engage at a disadvantage due to lower ground. In the campaign, barricading is a tactic that borders on cheesing because it also takes advantage of the StarCraft AI's tendency to prioritize threatening units, so enemies will end up faffing outside the wall while your units kill them with (near) impunity. As early as this mission, having a barricade will stop the Zerglings cold with the only complications being the Hydralisks and Mutalisks, since they can shoot over the barricade or bypass it entirely.

All that said, Supply Depots do have the problem of taking up quite a bit of room, and unlike the Command Center they can't lift off, so a big portion of a late-game Terran base will be dedicated to Supply Depots. Fortunately, by the time of the sequel they're smaller and retractable:


Image by Boarguts on DeviantArt.

It's been a long time since I've played but I actually don't think that wall would be zergling tight because the hitbox is funky. just because the shadow shows walls have no gaps doesn't mean lings/marines can't walk through.

lobster22221
Jul 11, 2017
Its no secret that starcraft was popular in South Korea, to the point where it was used in advertising.

For the sake of (mostly) entertainment and showing this, here is a Korean Air OSL 2010 OSL Promo Commercial

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gho30f6Yut0

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
I should note that one very positive thing about Mass Recall that's standing out to me is the art direction. The map makers for Mass Recall are superb, and really get a lot of mileage out of the far more powerful and varied map engine in Starcraft 2. The urban maps and installation maps are particular standouts, doubly so in Brood War. Starcraft 1, even Remastered, just isn't built for showing convincing city maps and indoor environments, but Starcraft 2's engine is far better at those.

JohnKilltrane
Dec 30, 2020

My dearest SomethingAwful Forums,

It has been eight long days since we first began the Great Move. All our hopes are pinned on the promised arrival of the Internet Guys. For the sixth day in a row, they have not come. Hold fast to hope, for it is more dear - and more rare - than the most precious gemstone.

I am sending this message via my inlaws' wifi. It seemed reliable enough. I hope it finds you well.

Yours, always and forever,
JohnKilltrane

JohnKilltrane
Dec 30, 2020

Unit Spotlight: Vulture

(Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about the Firebat. While spotlights will always be for units we've seen, they won't always be in the order that we've seen them).

Overview: Vultures come from the Factory. For 75 minerals and 2 supply, we get a Medium unit with 80 HP, 20 concussive damage (~15.9 DPS), 5 range (ground only), 6.4 speed, and 0 armour. The Ion Thrusters upgrade bumps that speed up to 9.6 - the highest in the game. Their upgrades give them +1.6 DPS and +1 armour each time. Also, as we saw, they can get Spider Mines, which do 125 explosive damage and don’t benefit from upgrades.

Vultures are insane. Their high speed makes them excellent harassment units and while their DPS may seem a little lackluster, the high base damage means even a couple Vultures can kill Small units in a single volley. But the real appeal of Vultures is their mines. Spider Mines are a crucial tool in a Terran player’s arsenal. Since Terran tends to be more defense-oriented and isn’t big on maneuverability, Mines are their #1 tool for map control. Mines can slow an enemy advance, or even delay it entirely if the enemy doesn’t have Detection (and is bad at micro). Good use of mines can end up containing the enemy and leaving them at the mercy of your army. And of course, there’s also “offensive mining” - running up, dropping mines on top of the enemy army, and running away.

This would make for a strong unit, but the real kicker is the unit’s cost. 75 minerals is next to nothing, and not having to pay any gas for a unit like this is just amazing.



Lore: Vultures are hoverbikes outfitted with a grenade launcher. They’re essentially the light cavalry of the Terran Confederacy. Although the manual says they’re designed for “reliability,” later content would depict them as anything but, instead treating them as deathtraps that could go off at any second. Sadly, unlike the Marine, we don’t get any fluff about the people riding the Vulture, but from what we see in-game they seem to be futuristic biker gangs serving as conscripts or auxiliaries (let’s be honest, almost certainly conscripts).

Tech fluff: The Ion Thruster has some of my favourite fluff in the game: Some enterprising soul said “Man, you know what I bet would make this thing go faster? If we strapped airship thrusters onto it.” I like to imagine that the Ion Thruster is held on with duct tape. Rock on, Terrans.

Spider Mines actually have very little fluff in SC1, but SC2 gives us two tidbits: They’re from Earth and were among the few pieces of technology to survive the journey; and there’s a popular horror holovid franchise about Spider Mines turning against their creators.

Full of Eels: We’ve seen ground units, like Marines, and we’ve seen air units, like Mutalisks, but Vultures actually fall into a third category: hovering. Units that hover are essentially ground units with a couple of differences: First, like air units, they accelerate and decelerate, rather than leaping right from being stationary to moving at top speed. Because of the way the game works, this means that unlike normal ground units, hovering units can attack while moving. Second, hovering units will not set off enemy Spider Mines (however they will still take splash damage from a Mine that goes off near them). Aside from the Vulture, every race’s worker unit hovers (as do a couple other units we won’t be seeing for a long, long time).

This has two main applications: First, it means that with skilled Vulture micro, a player can keep them moving while attacking, making them very difficult for the enemy to deal with. Second, it means that workers won’t set off Spider Mines, so mining their mineral line isn’t the amazing idea it might seem (though the Vulture’s standard attack just wrecks workers, so no worries).


Artwork of a Vulture from some Starcraft-related media I'm not familiar with. That's probably Jim Raynor driving it.

Campaign Usage: So, if Vultures prod so much buttock, why don’t they see much use in the campaign? Well, the campaign is mostly about big pushes to wipe out enemy bases. Vultures are good at map control and harassment, and these things just don’t really matter in the campaign. In early missions, enemy attack waves are too small to be worth putting out mines, and in later missions (particularly the expansion) they come frequently enough that putting out mines is often more trouble than it’s worth. And finally, between concussive damage and mines not targeting buildings, Vultures just plain suck when it comes to razing bases, and that’s a big part of the campaign.

Competitive usage

Versus Terran: I said that Marines are rare in this matchup because they pale in comparison to another unit, and the Vulture is that unit. Early game TvT is often all about Vulture wars, and it’s not uncommon to see a player lose a match because they had five Vultures and their opponent had six - if your Vultures are dead and the enemy still has some, there’s very little you can do to prevent them from running by your defenses and obliterating your SCVs. If the match progresses beyond the early game, Vultures will start to get phased out will fade from the spotlight but still maintain an important role (see DTurtle's post below).


A typical Vulture showdown in TvT between Royal and Light. Royal, the green player (on the right, for our colourblind readers) had more Vultures. Guess who won the match?

Versus Zerg: This is the matchup where Vultures are the least common. This is partially due to Terran having a stark “split” in their tech tree, which we’ll see more of later - Terran struggles to simultaneously develop a large force of both Vultures and Marines, and many Terran players tend to prefer Marines for this matchup. This is maybe the one area where the “traditional” approach has been challenged the most, and recently it’s been fairly common for Terran players to work in quite a few Vultures against Zerg. See, while Vultures (with Ion Thrusters) are faster than anything Zerg has, they aren’t a *lot* faster, and Zerg is still more maneuverable overall. On top of that, most Zerg ground units are fast enough that they can “drag” Spider Mines into Terran’s own soldiers, causing friendly fire. Despite all this, Vultures are still fast enough and hard-hitting enough to duck in and wreak havoc on a Zerg player’s workers if Zerg leaves them an opening (which Zerg almost certainly will).


Flash uses Vultures to zoom in and pick off some workers Jaedong (the Zerg player) was transferring to a new base.

Versus Protoss: Here’s where Vultures really shine. The Protoss ground army is a little cumbersome and unwieldy, so before they get some form of Detection up (and, to a lesser extent, even after), Spider Mines are incredibly potent at containing them. Protoss will need to advance slowly and methodically to pick off the Mines, and that gives you all sorts of opportunities. If you watch competitive TvP it’s not uncommon to see Terran turn large parts of the map into minefields.

On top of that, when it comes time for actual engagements, Vultures are top-tier skirmishers, excellent at screening Terran’s big guns. And if that weren’t enough, Protoss has an exceptionally powerful ground unit - a ground unit that is also slow, Small, and squishy. Need I say more?

Essentially, in a fair fight Terran’s ground army will generally struggle against Protoss. Vultures are what Terran uses to ensure that it’s not a fair fight.


Shuttle’s Protoss units trying to slowly advance through a chokepoint Mong’s Vultures have covered in mines

So, to summarize:

TvT: Vultures are decisive and often game-ending in the early game, but don’t have a lot of place in the late game.
TvZ: Vultures are fairly niche harassment units, but that niche is expanding all the time.
TvP: Vultures are *the* unit in this matchup.

JohnKilltrane fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Aug 27, 2023

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
One area where I sometimes use vultures in the campaign is as zergling/zealot hunters. Vultures have a decently long range and they're fast, so if I'm not going with a marine-focused deathball I usually sprinkle a few vultures in for zergling/zealot duty, or in groups to gank a certain protoss infantry unit we haven't encountered yet.

GunnerJ
Aug 1, 2005

Do you think this is funny?
Something cool about the SC2 single player is the shift in the Vulture pilot's voice acting. They're the exact same lines, but the delivery subtly changes the "feel" of the unit. Whereas in SC1 the Vulture is sassy and ornery and seemingly ready to fight his CO, the SC2 Vulture sounds worn down and tired. You get the impression that it's the same gang between games, and in the intervening years they've gotten too old for this poo poo.

DTurtle
Apr 10, 2011


JohnKilltrane posted:

Competitive usage

Versus Terran: I said that Marines are rare in this matchup because they pale in comparison to another unit, and the Vulture is that unit. Early game TvT is often all about Vulture wars, and it’s not uncommon to see a player lose a match because they had five Vultures and their opponent had six - if your Vultures are dead and the enemy still has some, there’s very little you can do to prevent them from running by your defenses and obliterating your SCVs. If the match progresses beyond the early game, Vultures will start to get phased out.
I think it's wrong to say that they get phased out. Instead what happens is that getting more than a good number of them (more than 18 or so - one and a half control groups) just rapidly hits diminishing returns, as they can't all fight at the same time. Either at that point or when the defensive positions become strong enough, they instead get a new important, but not central role.
The role they then get is that of cavalry - quickly dashing in and hitting weak spots, exploiting after breaking through a defensive position, or simply running (or being flown - we saw the dropships last mission) behind enemy lines in order to hit the economy. So you always see them being built, dropping some mines, and then suiciding into the enemy somewhere (hopefully doing a lot of damage before inevitably dying) in order to be replaced by newly built vultures that can repeat that process. They have incredibly short life spans.

Did you mention that control groups in Starcraft 1 are limited to 12 units? It makes a huge difference in comparison to Starcraft 2. The whole topic of control groups is a fascinating - and surprisingly central - topic about competitive Starcraft 1. Much, much, much, MUCH more than Starcraft 2 (or I would guess any other competitive RTS out there).

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

GunnerJ posted:

Something cool about the SC2 single player is the shift in the Vulture pilot's voice acting. They're the exact same lines, but the delivery subtly changes the "feel" of the unit. Whereas in SC1 the Vulture is sassy and ornery and seemingly ready to fight his CO, the SC2 Vulture sounds worn down and tired. You get the impression that it's the same gang between games, and in the intervening years they've gotten too old for this poo poo.

I think the bored vulture and new goliath portraits were two of the things I liked least in SC2, other than the story. :v:

I do find it funny how in the fluff they'll talk about how Vultures (and other units) were "obsolete" and then the replacements aren't nearly as good.

JohnKilltrane
Dec 30, 2020

Cythereal posted:

One area where I sometimes use vultures in the campaign is as zergling/zealot hunters. Vultures have a decently long range and they're fast, so if I'm not going with a marine-focused deathball I usually sprinkle a few vultures in for zergling/zealot duty, or in groups to gank a certain protoss infantry unit we haven't encountered yet.

Interesting, I might give that a spin.

DTurtle posted:

I think it's wrong to say that they get phased out.

More than fair, and I appreciate the correction. I'll admit it's been a while since I saw a TvT that wasn't decided within the first few minutes. I'll edit my post when I get the chance.

DTurtle posted:

Did you mention that control groups in Starcraft 1 are limited to 12 units? It makes a huge difference in comparison to Starcraft 2. The whole topic of control groups is a fascinating - and surprisingly central - topic about competitive Starcraft 1. Much, much, much, MUCH more than Starcraft 2 (or I would guess any other competitive RTS out there).

Not yet! I have an entire mechanicspost planned about control groups and pathfinding and how they're incredibly important to Starcraft as a competitive strategy game. Honestly I think that it's one of the most fascinating parts of the game - how Starcraft is great not just in spite of its somewhat janky bits, but often because of them. We'll get there.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

JohnKilltrane posted:

Interesting, I might give that a spin.

It's also good for baiting out lockdowns if you're going with a factory/starport heavy strategy on one of the maps filled with the units that do that, and they have the benefit that if you keep an SCV near your lines vultures are immune to getting worn down by chip damage because they can be repaired.

I mean, just spamming marines is probably objectively the best decision in most campaign maps, but vultures can be useful if you want to do something different.


On a fluff note, I checked and SC2 does suggest that vultures in the SC1 era do get used by legitimate military forces as scout and escort units. A SC2 character mentions that Raynor used to repeatedly clash with Confederate outriders but none could ever keep up with him.

DTurtle
Apr 10, 2011


JohnKilltrane posted:

More than fair, and I appreciate the correction. I'll admit it's been a while since I saw a TvT that wasn't decided within the first few minutes. I'll edit my post when I get the chance.
No worries at all. I only started watching competitive Starcraft (and Starcraft 2) since the pandemic. It has been lots of fun and really eye-opening as to what is done there in comparison to the somewhat competitive games among friends (and some tiny clan competitions) we had 20 years ago.

quote:

Not yet! I have an entire mechanicspost planned about control groups and pathfinding and how they're incredibly important to Starcraft as a competitive strategy game. Honestly I think that it's one of the most fascinating parts of the game - how Starcraft is great not just in spite of its somewhat janky bits, but often because of them. We'll get there.
Looking forward to it! Just like with the units, I'll hold off on commenting too much on that stuff until we get there. :)

Poil
Mar 17, 2007

Acerbatus posted:

I think the bored vulture and new goliath portraits were two of the things I liked least in SC2, other than the story. :v:

I do find it funny how in the fluff they'll talk about how Vultures (and other units) were "obsolete" and then the replacements aren't nearly as good.
One of my biggest issues is how tame and dull the sound effects became.
Zealots went from CHUNKCHUNKCHUNK! to swish swosh.
Zerglings went from WHAM! to barely audible.
Goliaths went from DAKKAKAKAKA to fvvrrrr.

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ChaosStar0
Apr 6, 2021

Okay, so I'm curious. For the mission where you need to destroy the Ion Cannon, is using Goliaths, Siege Tanks, Wraiths, and Battleships not the right moves? I mostly leave a few bunkers of Marines and a couple of Siege Tanks for my defense, while building up my armies and getting everything fully upgraded, then once everything is upgraded I send my armies to start wiping out the enemy. Thing is I usually never get to that point due to the enemy has by that point decimated my base with their Siege Tanks and Goliaths. I figure I'm doing something wrong, but not sure what as this strategy worked on all the other viable maps in the Terran Campaign. I never really use Firebats, Vultures(Except Raynor), or Science Vessels.

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