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I expected as much, but I'm still honestly in awe that the show actively went through with "genociding an oppressed minority is the happy ending here". At best, it's complete carelessness in understanding how its themes come off, at worst it's active malice. Hanlon's razor applies here, of course. Been incredible following the downward spiral ever since episode 9 though.
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Jun 19, 2021 18:59
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Tanon posted:Robot heaven was interesting. And I liked Flourite Eye’s Song, very pretty. It was predictable, but wasn’t a godawful car crash, or anything. Solid ending to what I feel was a really great show. I looked forward to it every week and I never left disappointed. I don’t have as much experience as some in anime; but sticking a landing at all seems to be an above average experience from what I’ve seen. I didn't think it was robot heaven, I thought it was the future and humanity was giving the AI thing another go in reference to Vivy telling Yui she was thought humans and AI should coexist someday.
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Jun 19, 2021 20:15
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Certainly didn't end as strong as it started, but I still teared up a bit. (I guess I don't hold that against it as much as I should because "starts well, stumbles over the ending" is my expectation for most anime.) In summary, Vivy is a parable about the dangers of centralised infrastructure and the importance of offline backups.
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Jun 19, 2021 20:16
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Well gently caress Saigyouji posted:I expected as much, but I'm still honestly in awe that the show actively went through with "genociding an oppressed minority is the happy ending here". At best, it's complete carelessness in understanding how its themes come off, at worst it's active malice. Hanlon's razor applies here, of course. I'm curious how you came to that conclusion because that's pretty wild. Kaiser Mazoku fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jun 19, 2021 |
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Jun 19, 2021 20:25
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Saigyouji posted:I expected as much, but I'm still honestly in awe that the show actively went through with "genociding an oppressed minority is the happy ending here". At best, it's complete carelessness in understanding how its themes come off, at worst it's active malice. Hanlon's razor applies here, of course. I don't know if that's really a theme of the show, though. At the beginning there is some talk about AI rights, but after that the focus is more on what it means to be human, to have heart. We find out the original Toak guy wasn't actually motivated by AI having rights, he was wrestling with survivor's guilt after being saved by an AI, and what does it mean to have survivor's guilt when you're saved by a "machine"? The archive was connected to all AI and it's reason for eradicating humanity wasn't that humans were oppressing the AI, it's that it had the singular mission of making humanity evolve, and the only way it saw that happening was to replace humanity with their "children". I think the show is asking a more existential/philosophical question as opposed to a question about social justice.
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Jun 19, 2021 20:26
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Regardless of authorial intent (and that's why I bring up carelessness, since it's just as likely to have been a pitfall that the writers unintentionally stumbled into and, indeed, is extremely common in works focusing on AI), the show draws a lot of parallels, again and again. From a terrorist group aiming to assassinate politicians to prevent the passage of AI rights laws, to AI/human marriage being treated as a major step forward for the progress of AI/human relations, to Ophelia's suicide bringing the question of AI autonomy to the forefront, it's shown repeatedly that, for all the talk of missions, AIs are very much sapient in their own right. Which is then juxtaposed against the fact that AIs are also routinely discarded and otherwise used as tools (The trashing and later reprogramming of Elizabeth, Grace being forced into the role of an AI core, hell, even Vivy being made to function as nothing more than a museum exhibit). This all leads to some particularly unfortunate vibes that the show never actually manages to shake, even if it never actually meant to invoke them. Saigyouji fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Jun 19, 2021 |
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Jun 19, 2021 20:46
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The politics of the whole android slave race situation are definitely incredibly uncomfortable when examined under even the slightest scrutiny, but the actual weirdest part of the show is still Dr Freud and his robot slave mommy wife.
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Jun 19, 2021 20:51
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Saigyouji posted:Regardless of authorial intent (and that's why I bring up carelessness, since it's just as likely to have been a pitfall that the writers unintentionally stumbled into and, indeed, is extremely common in works focusing on AI), the show draws a lot of parallels, again and again. Point taken, though I wouldn't say genociding them was the happy ending here. poo poo still got hosed up, just not "literal apocalypse" hosed up.
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Jun 19, 2021 21:05
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Reik posted:I didn't think it was robot heaven, I thought it was the future and humanity was giving the AI thing another go in reference to Vivy telling Yui she was thought humans and AI should coexist someday. It very well could be. It just hit me as some kind of afterlife kind of setup. Character wakes up suddenly, sees loved one, and goes off to whatever eternal award awaits them. She also wakes up in the Archive; so it could even be that the Archive made some kind of backup of all the AI consciousness and all the AI are living in some cyber utopia with just themselves apart from humanity. Just initial thoughts and impressions; I didn’t do any real big massive deep dives into it.
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Jun 19, 2021 21:53
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The string in the top , which I suspect is her ID, is the same for Diva and After-Credits Vivy. I think they just restored her body, but her personality is lost. She did look very happy about singing, unlike Diva at the start who went stone-faced when not on stage. Finally nobody is wearing clothes with glowing stripes anymore.
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Jun 19, 2021 23:02
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In the end the show's themes were kind of a mess and all over the place. The things setup, like Vivy having to sing to stop the Archive, don't even pay off, since as far as I can tell, her singing had zero impact on what the Archive was doing. From the previous timeline we are told that the Archive would reconsider its entire strategy if she is able to come out and sing, she does so, and... the Archive doesn't react at all? What was the point? Was her goal to make the world happy with her singing? Because she failed at that since millions of people died by AI's singing her song and her singing didn't even do anything to stop it? Was her goal to stop the AI uprising? Because she didn't do that either. Aside from her info dump everyone before she goes off and sings pointlessly to an empty stage, other people are all the ones who ultimately stopped the Archive using a virus not developed by her at all. Honestly, it's a real mess and I had a feeling it was going to flop it's conclusion here.
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Jun 19, 2021 23:11
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Nitrousoxide posted:In the end the show's themes were kind of a mess and all over the place. The things setup, like Vivy having to sing to stop the Archive, don't even pay off, since as far as I can tell, her singing had zero impact on what the Archive was doing. From the previous timeline we are told that the Archive would reconsider its entire strategy if she is able to come out and sing, she does so, and... the Archive doesn't react at all? What was the point? Was her goal to make the world happy with her singing? Because she failed at that since millions of people died by AI's singing her song and her singing didn't even do anything to stop it? Was her goal to stop the AI uprising? Because she didn't do that either. Aside from her info dump everyone before she goes off and sings pointlessly to an empty stage, other people are all the ones who ultimately stopped the Archive using a virus not developed by her at all. I think they double-whammied the Archive with Matsumoto's virus and the program encoded in Vivy's song to shut down the rampaging robots. What I couldn't follow at all was the Matsumoto cube falling from space, crashing into the space station. -e- Yeah, Vivy's song is what shuts the archive down. Everybody else is just stopping the satellite drops. Lurking Haro fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Jun 19, 2021 |
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Jun 19, 2021 23:20
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Lurking Haro posted:I think they double-whammied the Archive with Matsumoto's virus and the program encoded in Vivy's song to shut down the rampaging robots. I’m pretty sure that was Matsumoto launching himself up to intercept the satellite that was aimed for Nia Land to save Vivy and humanity from the drop. And I believe the plan was for Matsumoto’s virus to directly link Vivy’s singing into the Archive’s network to broadcast it to all the AI to shut them down. Since only a small part of the Archive was agreeable to saving humanity, they had to force the song to be played instead of the Archive just seeing her sing and calling it quits.
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Jun 19, 2021 23:25
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Were the show's peripheral themes criminally underdeveloped in favor of Vivy's own development? Yes. Were they just an excuse for Cool Things to happen? Yes. Did it feel like the authors spent all of 5 minutes thinking about the whole "AIs are an oppressed minority/slaves" thing? Yup. Show was still fun, beautiful, and I enjoyed almost all of it. Short-hair Vivy a best.
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Jun 19, 2021 23:30
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Tanon posted:I’m pretty sure that was Matsumoto launching himself up to intercept the satellite that was aimed for Nia Land to save Vivy and humanity from the drop. Matsumoto only stopped the Satellite drops (except that one that he intercepts). Everything else is Vivy's doing. He also catches up with it from behind, so either the Archive tower is already reaching space elevator heights or they don't understand how fast something drops from orbit.
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Jun 19, 2021 23:35
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Lurking Haro posted:so either the Archive tower is already reaching space elevator heights i might be wrong but i thought they very briefly showed that
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Jun 19, 2021 23:36
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marumaru posted:i might be wrong but i thought they very briefly showed that The fiery landscape they see from the top in episode 12 doesn't look like it. The "new humanity" robots looked very Frankenstein's Monster-ish (the Modern Prometheus) and the Archive tower might be the Tower of Babel.
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Jun 19, 2021 23:41
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I loved the ending and think the show did exactly what it said it would the idea of AI as an oppressed minority is an impressively cynical criticism, I'll grant that much I would say that the show is operating under the philosophical question of "what distinguishes humans from machines?", an umbrella which has a long history with ancillary contact with stories using robots as stand-ins for minorities Jen X fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jun 20, 2021 |
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Jun 19, 2021 23:58
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Lurking Haro posted:Matsumoto only stopped the Satellite drops (except that one that he intercepts). Everything else is Vivy's doing. After rewatching, I see what you’re saying. I do believe the archive tower has to be that tall, then. Only way him burning down from high atmosphere to intercept it makes sense. And I realized that I was paying way more attention to the lyrics of the song than the action going on in the background they first time I watched it 😂
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Jun 20, 2021 00:10
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The magnificent bastards I watched their anime and they did it! I think they more or less nailed it. I do agree that some of the themes are hard to examine critically but I chalk that up as being a weakness with a 1 cour series; if it was 2-cours I think we could've had more development of those themes. My assumption about the ending scene: I think given the change in look, that she no longer remembers anything, that it's the future and Humans and AI now live together peacefully and she was rebuilt in order to experience it from scratch and reclaim her innocence. She had ate from the tree of wisdom and lost her innocence and now she's been reborn and gets to relive it. Although I think its probably meant to be vague enough that it could be metaphorical heaven, as I'd imagine more characters and the way the scene is shot with her looking down at a crowd of humans in a hallway; with the idea being AI really do have souls and her spirit ascended. We do know that Elizabeth survived everything including the shutdown, and her labours (possibly a reference to Herekles (AI's are all superhuman when their abilities are unlocked and can use their full potential of fast information processing and super human strength and reflexes and of course a wide range of abilities), who went mad and killed his own family (the AI rampage) in a fit of berserk rage (the AI's were brainwashed), forced to do 12 labours for the gods (humans) to redeem himself (the post-rampage AI's) and ascend to join the Gods (being the equal of Humans) albeit she herself wasn't the one who rampaged so she's (and Vivy) are kinda jesus like in this metaphor). By working to rebuild humans eventually come to trust AI again and make more, this time learning from their mistakes. I think the scene with that dude stomping on an AI's face we're meant to focus on his tears, and that another guy steps up to put a comforting hand on his shoulder. He's in pain, not just for the loss of any human loved ones, but probably for the AI who was presumably dear to him; many humans are grieving for the loss of their children, their friends, people who they trusted their lives with; especially in this timeline where Human-AI relations were a lot better. Tanon posted:After rewatching, I see what you’re saying. I do believe the archive tower has to be that tall, then. Only way him burning down from high atmosphere to intercept it makes sense. And I realized that I was paying way more attention to the lyrics of the song than the action going on in the background they first time I watched it 😂 The Tower is indeed that tall (and its height increases as AI technology and role in society increases); but remember Matsumoto's cube has rocket thrusters.
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Jun 20, 2021 06:39
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Jen X posted:I loved the ending and think the show did exactly what it said it would I'm not sure why it's cynical. The show spells out that they're engineered from the ground up to have one goal for their entire existence, which is defined by a human at the moment of their creation. They will experience extreme discomfort if they have multiple goals, if they deviate from their goal, or if they fail. They are happiest when they succeed at their assigned task. None of this is extrapolation or reading into things - it's literally what the show presents. The show never delves into it and the only character who even begins to see how hosed up this is is the guy who marries his mommy nurse robot. Nobody else questions it, and in a hundred years Vivy never once thinks that it's kinda hosed up that she's been treated as an object throughout most of her journey. The show does ask that question, but it does so very poorly. None of this ever gets any screen time, all you get is Vivy going "beep boop what is heart?". That question would be more impactful if the show hadn't painted AI as literal slaves. As it stands, it's extremely easy to answer, unless all human babies are also told by their parents to become doctors/nurses/construction workers, or they'll be thrown into a garbage pile.
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Jun 20, 2021 10:42
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All the points people have about the show not going harder on some of the issues it up are fair, but I'm not sure you should have had such lofty expectations for an anime whose premise from day 1 was "What if Terminator 2 except Arnold was Hatsune Miku, and her sidekick was a hybrid companion cube/personality core?"
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Jun 20, 2021 13:05
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OnimaruXLR posted:All the points people have about the show not going harder on some of the issues it up are fair, but I'm not sure you should have had such lofty expectations for an anime whose premise from day 1 was "What if Terminator 2 except Arnold was Hatsune Miku, and her sidekick was a hybrid companion cube/personality core?" quote:I like this, I feel like we actually have a science fiction show that legitimately builds off of past classic and foundation science fiction in major ways, if the show sticks the landing I could see it being mentioned in the same paragraph as Frankenstein and I, Robot; the fact it's mixed with a combination of The Foundation and Terminator with Yoko Taro influences just makes it so fun. But yeah I am exceedingly disappointed this ended up being more standard luddite stuff
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Jun 20, 2021 13:20
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OnimaruXLR posted:All the points people have about the show not going harder on some of the issues it up are fair, but I'm not sure you should have had such lofty expectations for an anime whose premise from day 1 was "What if Terminator 2 except Arnold was Hatsune Miku, and her sidekick was a hybrid companion cube/personality core?" I don't think it's lofty expectations to expect a show to make a point. It's less that it doesn't go hard on some issues and more that it raises questions and introduces things for no real reason. Was there a point in building the AIs like this and spelling out their engineered limitations? For all the focus on it in the first couple of episodes you think there's going to be a turnaround, something that builds on it, characters that comment on it and there isn't, it gets completely forgotten almost as soon as its introduced. Wouldn't a better capstone for all of this be Vivy understanding that she was being compelled to sing from the start, and that pouring your heart into something means doing something because you truly enjoy doing it, not just because your creators told you to do it? Wouldn't the Archive be more interesting if after a century of looking at Vivy, it realized that all of her suffering is caused by a mission that someone else forced on her instead of some dumb poo poo about destroying humanity to make it evolve? I don't know. Instead, you learn that pouring your heart into something means you use your memories when you do it, the vast majority of AI is destroyed because it was never truly independent or even close to a human, and that's it.
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Jun 20, 2021 15:06
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All the people disappointed with the show making a point (or lack of) should watch Plastic Memories (don't).
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Jun 20, 2021 15:11
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OnimaruXLR posted:All the points people have about the show not going harder on some of the issues it up are fair, but I'm not sure you should have had such lofty expectations for an anime whose premise from day 1 was "What if Terminator 2 except Arnold was Hatsune Miku, and her sidekick was a hybrid companion cube/personality core?" Problem is the show wasn't just trying to be Terminator with Miku, it was very much trying to tell a point about AI's and trying to being meaingful and just not hitting it. Or to put it another way, it very much wanted to be Yoko Taro but ended up being David Cage
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Jun 20, 2021 18:31
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Xun posted:But yeah I am exceedingly disappointed this ended up being more standard luddite stuff I think as batteries says I think the show raises a lot of interesting questions and explores a lot of different themes; it also provides no definitive answer for any of it, which I think might be fine? I think the show started in the first half with a lot of really good ideas but then the struggle as is eternal is how to actually then finish this story in the remaining time. I think the show benefits by having a very strong direction which it does, I think its only in the last couple of episodes we're not quite sure whats going on with the themes and ultimately okay it didn't really answer anything, but it asked the questions and isn't that interesting? Makes you think more about the show and wonder about things.
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Jun 20, 2021 18:35
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the ending was disappointing, but i liked the rest of the show an awful lot.
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Jun 20, 2021 19:50
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Solid show was still Solid---ending was definitely no...er...Evergarden.
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Jun 21, 2021 14:43
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This was still a really fun ride even if it didn't end up as being thoughtful as it could have been
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Jun 22, 2021 11:26
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Yeah on reflection I think the criticisms in this thread are fair, but it was sure a fun ride and I got quite emotional there at the end.
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Jun 23, 2021 04:39
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i would have liked a few minutes explaining how kakitani sr. got convinced to turn into a cyborg/android
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Jun 24, 2021 11:44
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Relin posted:i would have liked a few minutes explaining how kakitani sr. got convinced to turn into a cyborg/android The Archive was just that good.
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Jun 24, 2021 11:48
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Relin posted:i would have liked a few minutes explaining how kakitani sr. got convinced to turn into a cyborg/android Love the Yoko Taro/David cage comparison above. I fully agree. Rascyc fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jun 26, 2021 |
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Jun 26, 2021 17:00
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Rascyc posted:That, some flashback realization about his message from the heavens seemed oddly missing, and I guess the origins of his little virus, yeah. There was a reoccurring line in the earlier episodes that I thought was supposed to comingle with Kakitani's stuff, the "this technology isn't of this era" thing. Never really felt that one fired though. The Archive kept steering everything to the apocalypse. It even knew about Matsumoto and Vivy and adjusted everything to their actions.
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Jun 26, 2021 17:32
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Ending was disappointing. felt like I jinxed it talking to my partner right before about how I wish more shows didn’t bother with op/Eds so they can flesh out their stories more and not rush stuff. Besides a lot of the criticisms that others have mentioned the art and animation in this episode was kinda painfully not great. I feel like I saw more QUALITY Vivy close ups in this ep than I can remember in the rest of the show in total. Also weird to have a summary episode after the show is over. I kinda skipped around but i was hoping there’d be more uhh analysis instead of a literal summary without much else
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Jun 26, 2021 21:13
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well, going by this thread there's definitely some confusion about what happened and why.
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Jun 26, 2021 21:35
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My guess is they had really good ideas and a strong start which is I think not a high bar for any creative and curious person; but actually closing off the story in a satisfactory way wasn't something they could do in 13 episodes and couldn't get the go ahead for more and wanted to have a complete story in 1 cour. Its pretty hard to write a satisfactory ending, and I think you probably had the Writer's Room spitballing possible endings and came up with the best thing they could. Look at how the writers for Game of Thrones despite having something like a blueprint and real skill in adapting the first three books and writing fanfiction interactions between characters couldn't write a good ending.
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Jun 26, 2021 21:50
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Weird that both this series and 86 aired a recap episode the week after finishing. I don't remember ever seeing a 1 cour show do that before.
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Jun 26, 2021 22:55
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86 continues in October
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Jun 26, 2021 23:53
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