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Yeah, I mean realists about perception mainly. Those who believe the objects of perception (what is being perceived) are real objects in the world rather than objects in the mind. And by materialism I don't mean the belief that there is only matter, but rather the belief that material conditions should be at the center of any theory about society or behavior more generally.
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May 6, 2021 21:13
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Finicums Wake posted:as someone who knows just enough mathematics to know how little about foundational issues i know (so like first order logic, set theory, godel's proofs, basics kind of dtuff): that was the original motivation for it, yes but there's more reasons to be excited about it, within mathematics you get a way to conceptualize logic, computation, and homotopy theory all at the same time there's also this book making the case that (modal) homotopy type theory is a better formalization of logic for the purposes of philosophy. basically the theory is a formalization which is much more flexible, has sensitivity to context built in, and generally fits the way people actually talk and think better than classical set theory
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May 6, 2021 21:31
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SurgicalOntologist posted:Yeah, I mean realists about perception mainly. Those who believe the objects of perception (what is being perceived) are real objects in the world rather than objects in the mind. For me I’ve come to a place where I don’t care as much about the idea / material categories any more. I’m comfortable thinking either might be real. Zizek uses an analogy to a shore line. A shore line is an intersection, a place where two material things meet. it can move and change and is dynamic, but most people would call it real. I look at the ideal in that way.
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May 6, 2021 22:16
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Trabisnikof posted:that sounds cool, but I think I need some alice in wonderland based metaphors to understand what it means sorry i only know how to do dune references
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May 6, 2021 22:37
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Perhaps this thread should be title obscure academia chat? It seems like people want to discuss far more than cybernetics alone. Not trying to step on toes. I think cybernetics is cool, but a general thread for esoteric nerd poo poo has more staying power than focusing on a single discipline. Zodium posted:thank you. Tangentially, nick land has recently had a change of heart and claims to be a communist now. Admittedly his communism seems to be overly idealistic, he still believes in the capitalist techno-god but he thinks we should kill it for the good of humanity Basically he played smt4 and thought it was super profound.
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May 6, 2021 22:39
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that's true, though the thought experiment isn't meant to preclude superintelligences so much as show a simpler explanation will suffice.
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On the topic of cybernetics does anyone have any resources on the Soviet OGAS system? Particularly why it was abandoned in favor of market reforms?
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May 6, 2021 22:44
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Mr. Lobe posted:Stick with the prod, prod with the prod Why contain it? It's coool. My GIRLFRIEND is a physicist coming from a long line of physicists on her father's side, going back to the Manhattan Project. One time I was telling her about how much Hofstadter's work (GEB / Strange Loop etc) meant to me as a teen and all the quasi-religious takeaways I had. She related to me that it was an inside joke within her family how every time some absolute quack would send her, her father, grandfather etc some insane document purporting to explain all the mysteries of the universe, human condition, economy etc with some weird mathematical equations, said quack was always an engineer by trade. fart barterer has issued a correction as of 23:12 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 22:52
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Dreddout posted:On the topic of cybernetics does anyone have any resources on the Soviet OGAS system? Particularly why it was abandoned in favor of market reforms? (ed: although i might be misremembering? probably best have a read of the book) CGI Stardust has issued a correction as of 23:06 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 23:02
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Dreddout posted:On the topic of cybernetics does anyone have any resources on the Soviet OGAS system? Particularly why it was abandoned in favor of market reforms? From my understanding it was basically a moon program level endeavor with the distant far-off reward being one single Google sheet for the central planners that local enterprises could suggest edits to. It would have been a significant technical achievement and very useful administrative tool for the time, but it just never could have been a WalMart/Amazon tier electronic central planning infrastructure with the technology of the time. If they'd managed to hold on an extra few decades for computers to get good enough OGAS 3.0 would have suddenly looked a lot more feasible but, well, RIP
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May 6, 2021 23:02
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power word- Jeb! posted:that was the original motivation for it, yes dude, this is extremely my poo poo, from a philosophy perspective. i won't pretend to understand the formal details but it makes me want to staet learning. i've heard category theorists talk about being inspired by hegel and stuff. is this related to that? it seems like it!! e.g. https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Hegel%27s+%22Logic%22+as+Modal+Type+Theory lmao if the dialectic gets formalized that would rule Finicums Wake has issued a correction as of 23:14 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 23:08
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Crazycryodude posted:I read basically all of Peter Watts' stuff in high school and it kinda went over my head I just thought it was dark edgy cool sci-fi but I've started going back and re-reading the Rifters trilogy and it's clicking with me a lot more on a philosophical level. I dunno if it's just I grew up and read more boring philosophy books, or 2020 crack-pings, or whatever, but it's crazy how much 20 year old speculative fiction still feels incredibly relevant. Hell, Rifters feels more relevant today than it did to the time it was written in. The decaying zombie capitalist world run by inscrutable algorithms in a box but inhabited by people who just want it to loving die already so they can move on to what comes next feels real familiar. Highly recommend Watts, even if I still think he's a little gratuitous at times with the shock value violence-torture-rape-whatever stuff. Watts is goddamn amazing, and the aliens in Blindsight/Echopraxia are a perfect analogue to the kind of 'intelligence' that imo capital is most accurately conceived of - hyperintelligent but non-sapient. radically complex interdependent information transfer matrices that aren't recursively, symbolically aware of themselves in the way an individual human is. authors like Watts and Bakker (Neuropath being the most relevant Bakker work here) are eliminative materialists, which is to say they deny that human sapience has any evolutionary advantage, and think that free will is just an illusion. if this is the case, all emancipatory politics are effectively the pinnacle of human delusion - there never was any such thing as freedom to fight for in the first place. we are biodrones for Bakker and Watts, and econo-drones for Land, and that's just how it is. all 3 of these thinkers advocate a kind of blissful capitulation to our ultimate irrelevance and helplessness. it all comes back to freedom - if we cannot scientifically conceive of a free human individual then these reactionary thinkers are right and there is no basis for any emancipatory horizon whatsoever. where I disagree with Land, Bakker, Watts et al is that I think that the switch can operate itself - human subjectivity isn't just a linear function of external and internal stimuli, we do have a kind of free will in that we can choose which stimuli we respond to and how. while this auto-poetic self-positing may not have any long term evolutionary value, that's kind of the whole point. for an emancipatory humanist of any stripe the emergence of human subjectivity suspends evolutionary dynamics and generates the emergent causal matrix of human history, which is semi-autonomous from evolutionary dynamics. this is why I'm a communist, and a humanist. I think that demonstrating to ourselves in our daily practice all the ways in which we are and can be free is a better way to live than simply accepting a hyper deterministic fatalism which can only express itself as snide reaction, but this is something every individual has to test for themselves. if it still comes down to a choice, then the determinists lose. to bring this back to the thread topic, this is also the difference between a cybernetics conceived as total system control ala Land, and cybernetics conceived as the basis of human emancipation ala Beer, Allende, and cybernetic Marxism. emTme3 has issued a correction as of 23:45 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 23:16
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Bar Ran Dun posted:For me I’ve come to a place where I don’t care as much about the idea / material categories any more. I’m comfortable thinking either might be real. Zizek uses an analogy to a shore line. A shore line is an intersection, a place where two material things meet. it can move and change and is dynamic, but most people would call it real. What I'm referring to, It's not about the shore line per se, it's about our perception of it, our epistemic relationship to it. I believe we perceive the real shoreline. Most mainstream perception scientists believe that's impossible, we only perceive a model of a shoreline constructed in our heads to stand in for the real one. That's the distinction in philosophy of perception. You can see of it more as external/internal or representational vs. non-representational as well. And regarding the type of question you're raising, from an ecological/pragmatic perspective, the shoreline is real to an organism not because of what it's made of or how concretely it can be defined, but rather because it affords behaviorally relevant opportunities for action. It's real to me because it's behaviorally relevant.
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May 6, 2021 23:31
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I regret these posts
animist has issued a correction as of 07:45 on Aug 25, 2023 |
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May 7, 2021 00:23
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SurgicalOntologist posted:What I'm referring to, It's not about the shore line per se, it's about our perception of it, our epistemic relationship to it. I believe we perceive the real shoreline. Most mainstream perception scientists believe that's impossible, we only perceive a model of a shoreline constructed in our heads to stand in for the real one. That's the distinction in philosophy of perception. You can see of it more as external/internal or representational vs. non-representational as well. ahh got ya now. I do think we make models in our heads and there is real danger in mistaking our models for reality, but that out models are in and from reality. SurgicalOntologist posted:And regarding the type of question you're raising, from an ecological/pragmatic perspective, the shoreline is real to an organism not because of what it's made of or how concretely it can be defined, but rather because it affords behaviorally relevant opportunities for action. It's real to me because it's behaviorally relevant. there are a bunch of ways to get here, but I think this or in the vicinity of thinking about it this way is where things need to go to start solving the problem we face now. right and for me an example relating all this back around to cybernetics would be a question like : What is a tool? If we think about it in the shoreline is real way, we can think about ideas in the way cybernetics thinks about technology and this can inform our behavior towards ideas. Bar Ran Dun has issued a correction as of 00:51 on May 7, 2021 |
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May 7, 2021 00:28
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animist posted:In one of the Zen koans, somebody asks: "Does the enlightened being fall under the yoke of causation or not?" And the answer is, "The enlightened being does not ignore causation." that's basically my understanding of, like, cybernetic Marxism/dialectical materialism as well. (I'm not sure if that's a clear explanation, but these things are hard to put into words...) Lao Tzu posted:Therefore the Master takes action
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May 7, 2021 01:02
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So what I'm getting from trying to read some of the posts itt is that cybernetics is marxism but for even bigger nerds. The most pure Indoor Boy ideology. Is that right
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May 7, 2021 01:32
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some plague rats posted:So what I'm getting from trying to read some of the posts itt is that cybernetics is marxism but for even bigger nerds. The most pure Indoor Boy ideology. Is that right it’s also used by capitalism. systems thinking and stock and flow modeling is what the consultancies do McKinsey, Rand, etc.
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May 7, 2021 01:48
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some plague rats posted:So what I'm getting from trying to read some of the posts itt is that cybernetics is marxism but for even bigger nerds. The most pure Indoor Boy ideology. Is that right as a recovering agoraphobic guy, who is about as Indoor Boy as it gets: it isn't limited to marxists but you get the idea
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May 7, 2021 01:51
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Okay cool. Thank you
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May 7, 2021 01:59
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some plague rats posted:So what I'm getting from trying to read some of the posts itt is that cybernetics is marxism but for even bigger nerds. The most pure Indoor Boy ideology. Is that right correct animist has issued a correction as of 07:46 on Aug 25, 2023 |
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May 7, 2021 02:10
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animist posted:understanding things may occasionally require you to read words yes Yeah I read some words and understood that this is marxism for people with framed Dune posters
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May 7, 2021 02:14
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some plague rats posted:Yeah I read some words and understood that this is marxism for people with framed Dune posters uh no i will have you know i have a framed Foundation poster 
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May 7, 2021 02:17
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e: bad post srry
animist has issued a correction as of 04:33 on May 7, 2021 |
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May 7, 2021 02:18
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turd in my singlet posted:Paul Cockshott that's not a real name
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May 7, 2021 02:26
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animist posted:epic burn bro. you sure are doing a good job flexing how cool and not a nerd you are, posting on the c-spam board of the something awful forums, I'm just fuckin about, stop being such a weenie my guy
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May 7, 2021 02:34
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history is mutable
animist has issued a correction as of 07:46 on Aug 25, 2023 |
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May 7, 2021 02:36
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animist posted:nah, it pisses me off when people walk into a thread to go "lol everybody here is a fuckin nerd amirite guys???" you sound like someone who thinks very lowly of people who think it's funny to misspell names analmist
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May 7, 2021 02:37
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Less tomfoolery. More cybernetics.
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May 7, 2021 02:39
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animist posted:nah, it pisses me off when people walk into a thread to go "lol everybody here is a fuckin nerd amirite guys???" Maybe try making some jokes instead of getting sincerely mad. If you cant ignore the bait just start posting your manifesto for unionizing the sexbots or something. Have some fun ever (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 7, 2021 02:47
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animist posted:nah, it pisses me off when people walk into a thread to go "lol everybody here is a fuckin nerd amirite guys???" from the perspective of considering a forum as an organization with shared cultures and institutions, the structure of incentives that lead to troll posts likely serve a social goal. as a society allowing you to get trolled may, and i think does, rebound to the benefit of the whole. this alignment of values occurs at several levels, there is of course the stated core value of humor which trolling clearly creates among the stakeholders in the forum. but beyond that, it creates a social standard of a lightly discordant social dynamic, both providing a face-saving means to socially engage and disengage, but also creating a culture of flexible standards of discourse that serve the community. it lets us pinch of a few diamonds in the poo poo pile with the safety of knowing that you won't worsen the poo poo in your efforts. without that flexibility it both creates more strict and stifled discussions, but that the expands to the culture around that discussion. e.g. a forum where you can't troll members of a political party will quickly cut disagreement with that party too. even "neutral" rules shape a biased society in biased ways. so thank you for providing the social good itt and i hope it can be more enjoyable next time
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May 7, 2021 02:50
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I wander the forums like a posting ronin but instead of a sword I have an affable demeanour and I go village to village being like "hey, what are you nerds up to in here?" somehow leaving a trail of devastation behind meTrabisnikof posted:from the perspective of considering a forum as an organization with shared cultures and institutions, the structure of incentives that lead to troll posts likely serve a social goal. as a society allowing you to get trolled may, and i think does, rebound to the benefit of the whole. Yes. Hell yes. I love it. Lets get married
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May 7, 2021 02:50
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...sorry im high as poo poo and prolly posting pretty badly rn on further reflection Cybernetics is pretty much precisely for the most indoor boys and I am just an indoor boy in denial
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May 7, 2021 02:52
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some plague rats posted:Maybe try making some jokes instead of getting sincerely mad. If you cant ignore the bait just start posting your manifesto for unionizing the sexbots or something. Have some fun ever ppl are having fun talking about cybernetics and extreme nerd poo poo plus marxism, stop bullying us indoor boys pls (at least itt)
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May 7, 2021 03:10
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this dude is my homie Faced with new realities, our systems have to transform — as the society has transformed. They have to learn to co-change (co-evolve) with their constantly changing environments. Thus, it is imperative that we understand what these transformations and new realities are. We have to grasp their implications for systems, and apply our understanding of these implications to the transformation of our systems. We need to learn how to recreate our systems, how to redesign them so that they will have a “goodness of fit” with the emerged new realities. No small task by any means! Trabisnikof has issued a correction as of 03:33 on May 7, 2021 |
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May 7, 2021 03:30
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Cyberzombie is a colloquial term usually for a (meta)human who has been turned into an extremely powerful cybernetic and magical construct created by high level cybermancy rituals. Only a few corporations or groups in the Sixth World possess the technology and resources (multi-million nuyen) to create and maintain a Cyberzombie. Cyberzombies are technically "dead" but the soul is bound to the cybermantic corpse and, if maintained correctly, retain all the intelligence of the formerly living being.
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May 7, 2021 03:53
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Filthy Hans posted:Cyberzombie is a colloquial term usually for a (meta)human who has been turned into an extremely powerful cybernetic and magical construct created by high level cybermancy rituals. Only a few corporations or groups in the Sixth World possess the technology and resources (multi-million nuyen) to create and maintain a Cyberzombie. Cyberzombies are technically "dead" but the soul is bound to the cybermantic corpse and, if maintained correctly, retain all the intelligence of the formerly living being. I loved that one cyberzombie mission in the shadowrun returns games
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May 7, 2021 04:01
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i love all of your posts. they're very good posts.androo posted:My GIRLFRIEND is a physicist coming from a long line of physicists on her father's side, going back to the Manhattan Project. lol. that's actually a pretty common joke about engineers among scientists I think, I've definitely heard variations in the wild. probably because it's true. BUT this is a good opportunity to go on a tangent and post this piece from the Pias book about Einstein clowning on the early cyberneticists, and i'm taking it:  (did d&d change forum ids at some point? i've been trying to find some old posts on psychology and it seems like anything pre-2014 is just poof, gone) Zodium has issued a correction as of 08:31 on May 7, 2021 |
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May 7, 2021 08:28
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Finicums Wake posted:dude, this is extremely my poo poo, from a philosophy perspective. i won't pretend to understand the formal details but it makes me want to staet learning. i've heard category theorists talk about being inspired by hegel and stuff. is this related to that? it seems like it!! yes i was almost going to mention Lawvere in that post. he's the guy who came up with this idea of interpreting hegelian synthesis as triples of adjoint functors. and a whole bunch of other really wild ideas in categorical logic/semantics unsurprisingly Lawvere is very much a Marxist
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May 7, 2021 18:48
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Trabisnikof posted:this dude is my homie Nice to see Wallace Shawn getting work
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May 7, 2021 20:57
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couple of introductory resources for the OP if you're interested Stafford Beer - Designing Freedom radio lectures: introductory; Beer talking a bunch about cybernetics and his social application of it - attempting to maximise autonomy while preserving cohesion. 6 lectures, about 30 minutes each. There's also a book, limited availability at https://archive.org/details/designingfreedom00beer, or pick up from wherever Stafford Beer - The Falcondale Collection (also on a YouTube playlist found on a Discord): an informal introductory "lecture" series from the early 1990s; Beer explaining his approach to cybernetics in a small group setting over a weekend, apparently drinking nothing but wine. 9 videos, 1h to 1h 30m each. wholesome stuff!
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May 7, 2021 23:42
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