|
extremely annoyed that some dumb nerd killed all discussion of cybernetic marxism with some horseshit from a LITERAL NAZI about "oh no i;m a white a guy who read daodejing once "
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 03:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 04:59 |
|
|
i'm drunk enough to yell at how stuppid your posts are, bar ran dun. gently caress you. this is anthropocentric horseshit. "oh no not technlology" gently caress of f bigtch. was developing new proteins that made multicellular life possible a moral quandary???? gently caress offffffffffffffff i hate you don'ts post in my thread. gently caress off. humanity is facing a literal EXTINGCTION THREAT FROM GO D drat CLIMATE CHANGE we don't need loving navelgazing horseshit about "oh no not a tehcnlololgy" gently caress OFFFFFF
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 03:44
|
|
|
Hell yeah I love it when threads like this turn spicy! Get his rear end!
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 03:50
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:A vertically oriented business with a hierarchical structure and rigid social rules isn’t really a bourgeois structure. Most businesses aren’t really run with bourgeois structures they’re run with conservative feudal structures. Quite a lot of business consultancy is about breaking down those fuedal structures and reassembling them as bourgeois structures. Horizontal organizations that’s more bourgeois, vertical still very feudal. In the socialist decision Tillich characterized the bourgeois in this way: its bourgeois because it's purpose is to create profit for the person who "owns" the "business". any structure beneath this level only serves the purpose of creating profit, making it a fundamentally bourgeois structure quote:But back to this """being""" is a GOAL for fuckin buddhist/daoist/whateverist ideology, not some universal truth
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 03:59
|
|
|
mycomancy posted:Hell yeah I love it when threads like this turn spicy! lol
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 04:00
|
|
|
my dumbass new idiea for an organizational method is to use the VSM to create "viable" structures that are replicable and intelligent, based off the tribal structures people already make under capitalism. i am inspired by the development of multicellular life out of bacteria and feel like working-class organization should follow a more "corporate" stucture and not focus on the anarchist/liberal ideal of "individual humans doing the9ir poo poo, individually" it sounds really c-spam modded when i type it out bvut honestly it's less c-spam-modded than the weird fuckin liberal anarchism that seems to be the goal of "communists" online
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 04:15
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:I find myself rereading The Question Concerning Technology and I find myself taking away three rather important points. Technology is a revealing. Technology is enframing. And that revealing and enframing are danger but that also has saving power. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 04:22
|
|
|
turd in my singlet posted:i'm drunk enough to yell at how stuppid your posts are, bar ran dun. gently caress you. this is anthropocentric horseshit. "oh no not technlology" gently caress of f bigtch. was developing new proteins that made multicellular life possible a moral quandary???? gently caress offffffffffffffff i hate you don'ts post in my thread. gently caress off. humanity is facing a literal EXTINGCTION THREAT FROM GO D drat CLIMATE CHANGE we don't need loving navelgazing horseshit about "oh no not a tehcnlololgy" gently caress OFFFFFF you uh aren’t getting what I’m saying. it’s both. it’s dangerous and it has saving power. I swear to god simplistic thinking is going to loving doom us all. I’m sorry your favorite management consultant is a goddamn management consultant. ideas are tools. tools are dangerous( I can brain you with a hammer) tools have saving power (I can use a hammer in the project of building a house). cybernetics carries that same duality. companies can use these concepts to run global spanning horizontal modern international supply chains that will drat us re “EXTINGCTION THREAT FROM GO D drat CLIMATE CHANGE” ie danger or we can use these concepts to understand the systems and use controls to prevent “EXTINGCTION THREAT FROM GO D drat CLIMATE CHANGE”. for a forum full of marxists I swear to god some of you have the hardest time with dialectics. both motherfucker danger and saving power. this poo poo is both the business ideas loving us and killing the climate. it’s also the suite of ideas that literal let us conceive of the problem of climate as a system that we are affecting. Bar Ran Dun has issued a correction as of 04:41 on Jun 14, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 04:32
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:you uh aren’t getting what I’m saying. it’s both. it’s dangerous and it has saving power. I swear to god simplistic thinking is going to loving doom us all.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 04:52
|
|
|
turd in my singlet posted:. i am inspired by the development of multicellular life out of bacteria and feel like working-class organization should follow a more "corporate" stucture and not focus on the anarchist/liberal ideal of "individual humans doing the9ir poo poo, individually" it goes both ways. for example a horizontal supply chain looks like the rhizome it’s remarkably similar to post-structuralism. we can and should steal everything that works. but they’ll do the same. form isn’t content. and any content can be put into a given form. this is to say what you are asserting is possible. steal that corporate form slam a communist content into that fucker.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 04:55
|
|
|
what do you think my goal is?
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 04:58
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:what do you think my goal is? Big Nerd
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 05:02
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:what do you think my goal is? taking a turd in the pool feigning surprise
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 07:59
|
|
|
gah, I was just taking a little forums r&r after the flavius flame war.Bar Ran Dun posted:what do you think my goal is? you're trying to smuggle idealism into the cybernetic marxism thread, you cheeky bastard, and its really getting in the way of your substantive points coming from your professional experience. Mundrial Mantis posted:Cybernetics and complexity science in general is something I want to do more in after listening to GIU and reading People's Republic of Walmart. Here's a neat map of where cybernetics fits in with other fields in complexity science. viewing cybernetics as part of complexity science instead of the other way around is a twelfth type of liberalism. edit: complexity science is good but necsi (who i think made this plot) pushes it with near religious zeal as the new cybernetics and as much as I admire bar-yam, the whole project gives me the heeby jeebies. Zodium has issued a correction as of 10:27 on Jun 14, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 10:24
|
|
|
turd in my singlet posted:"oh no i;m a white a guy who read daodejing once "  i guess this isn't the thread for lao Tzu. fine you want charts and complex systems? ok i got your systems right here   
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 14:17
|
|
|
i actually like daoism a lot, my phrasing of "read daodejing once" was very deliberate lol. i feel liike daoism defines exactly a complex system, but in an intuitive sense (vs the modern/western mathematical models of complexity)
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 15:37
|
|
|
turd in my singlet posted:i actually like daoism a lot, my phrasing of "read daodejing once" was very deliberate lol. i feel liike daoism defines exactly a complex system, but in an intuitive sense (vs the modern/western mathematical models of complexity) religious theologies are constructed models, complex systems for communities that are the suite of ideas for how to participate within the relevant community. Zodium posted:you're trying to smuggle idealism into the cybernetic marxism thread, you cheeky bastard, and its really getting in the way of your substantive points coming from your professional experience. there is the technical management and attempt understand complex systems, but there is also the human effort to build and drive to complete the projects that we throw ourselves into and how to bring others into participating in. There is no difference between final projects and ultimate concerns. But the content of our projects and concerns should be human. To make things happen in the world and actually build communities one has to look at the second part. And you’ll see this in a lot of the business consulting literature tied in cybernetics. They’ll outright talk about it explicitly in terms of telos and meaning. Hell look at VSM. What does System 5 do?
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 18:39
|
|
|
are you going to post something more is substantial than “ah curious, but you participate in
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 18:55
|
|
|
"Management techniques" seem... vaguely "fundamental" to the task of "organizing". Maybe it's just me
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 20:42
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:what do you think my goal is? Being a dumb bitch Congrats
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 21:56
|
|
|
turd in my singlet posted:"Management techniques" seem... vaguely "fundamental" to the task of "organizing". Maybe it's just me yes, and you seem to think that I think we shouldn’t use them which isn’t the case.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 23:19
|
|
|
turd in my singlet posted:i actually like daoism a lot, my phrasing of "read daodejing once" was very deliberate lol. i feel liike daoism defines exactly a complex system, but in an intuitive sense (vs the modern/western mathematical models of complexity)  
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2021 15:01
|
|
|
Don't you die on me thread!Zodium posted:viewing cybernetics as part of complexity science instead of the other way around is a twelfth type of liberalism. Looking closer, there's something about NECSI, the Santa Fe Institute, and complexity science in general that gives me worrying vibes. There's interesting stuff but there is also an undercurrent of using radical interdisciplinary techniques to build and maintain technocratic policies that stray from actually changing society for the better. I know internet tough guy Taleb has worked with NECSI and some George Mason professors (economic department funded by Koch money) have taught courses through Sante Fe Institute, which is worth keeping in mind. Is that related to what you mean by twelfth type of liberalism? On that note, are there any places or universities doing work on cybernetics and related fields? Following individual researchers might be better.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2021 12:46
|
|
|
I encountered it from the program head during my masters. it was “transportation systems” program and he was specifically trying to promote the idea within the maritime community.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2021 16:05
|
|
Hey I'm a dumbass tell me what book to read to understand this threads whole thing and if I get three recs for one book I will  to read it by August Ps. please unkill this thread people really like it
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2021 04:21
|
|
|
tokin opposition posted:Hey I'm a dumbass tell me what book to read to understand this threads whole thing and if I get three recs for one book I will read daodejing once
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2021 04:31
|
|
|
not read anything yet but I have to say that this thread is extremely my loving jam and you all rock now I am going to LUXURIATE in these fine rear end quality posts
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2021 05:30
|
|
|
here’s some free poo poo in the subject https://asc-cybernetics.org/foundations/definitions.htm as far as books go: The Foundations of Cybernetics by Frank George my interaction with it is from extensive excepts from the program head that he scanned in and distributed. i should probably buy a copy myself.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2021 07:00
|
|
|
I'm about 50 pages into The Human Use of Human Beings and its great so far. glad I picked up the recommendation from the thread
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2021 06:21
|
|
|
bump
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2023 10:34
|
|
|
super cool ultra good thread BTW if you ever want to have a fun and very rudimentary experience of the problems involved, play victoria 3
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2023 15:49
|
|
|
cyber
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2023 17:38
|
|
|
syn
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2023 01:01
|
|
|
Hehe norbert weiner
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2023 03:36
|
|
|
bump gonna post
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 22:49
|
|
|
Cybernetic Discrimination
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 23:10
|
|
|
has there been any Chinese research interest in this field as of late? I’ve heard they’ve been using AI for business//organizational planning instead of making terrible art
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 23:11
|
|
|
I made a thread in YOSPOS but it got deleted 
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 23:23
|
|
|
in penance for being extremely up my own rear end in 2021, here's a cool animation of proteins being cybernetic https://youtube.com/watch?v=7Hk9jct2ozY
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 07:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 04:59 |
|
|
Mundrial Mantis posted:Don't you die on me thread! doubt the op will read this or even remember posing the question but for anyone else interested: from what I've seen for applied work on the subject in US universities the lion's share seems to come out of DARPA-funded grants to CS faculty who just want to buy out their teaching time to solve interesting graph theoretic problems and not stop and wonder what their work will be purposed for. relatedly, I also see it being applied in counter-terrorism research centers also some of the more technical urban planning departments/schools that have expertise in transportation I'm willing to bet there are others too, but I am also willing to bet that most of them are not heavily funded by external grant-giving orgs and so their output is comparatively slower and less flashy (maybe better though?)
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 09:26
|
|
