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As not only an autistic adult, but someone who works as a Direct Support Professional in the field of developmentally-able individuals, AND that four of my cousins also have ASD, I'm very curious about this LP. You're doing a great job so far! It seems like it has a good sense of characterization with their disability included, but not tacked...How did 4chan make this with such care? I'm kinda shocked by that...though that last scene, you could have told Shizune straight, Hisao. I'm sure Misha won't mind, just saying... Though to be fair, I'm not sure how much I trust Kenji...especially if what I'm reading from him so far is true. Also, in terms of Autism Speaks, do we also wanna talk about how they support a style of teaching (cw: problematic techniques) autistic children that is essentially Pavlovian? and ignores the emotional context of those it is used on? News flash: Autistic kids are not dogs. Play Defense! Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 02:06 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 01:43
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I think what happened with me and this game, and it happened right here. I was told to play it by a friend on Discord-mentioning the way it told stories and characterization well for disabled highschoolers, so I was curious. Everything was fine up until I dealt with Kenji last update, who I already had what I felt was a read on him in terms of his social concerns were, given experience with autistic people I dealt with in the past like him, and he absolutely soured everything that I would have liked him to disappear from the plot at that stage, which was basically strike 1 and 2... And then Rin came along, and my ‘social worker’ hat came in with the ‘did she just ask someone completely self-conscious about their disability blatantly where it causes clear and obvious discomfort’ and I was like “what was this school doing.” And I didn’t go farther than this. Not that I thought Hisao didn’t have some problematic takes, but I actually felt better about him after he talked with Motou. Like, that was enough for him to get a better grasp (despite ‘volume control’ could have been handled with less intensity, there.) on the direction his life has taken, and that he can grow to have meaningful relationships with the people here..and then callousness kinda broke in?
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Jun 1, 2021 22:03
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To the point above: I like that adaptability as well..I also would point out that I’m glad the teachers are active about their role? Means less need for paraprofessionals, if they are on the ball. As someone in this field and who feels the wrinkle of ‘agency’ with my own ASD, I want to call attention to the Nurse there, with his polite redirection of Hisao’s joke and about exercising. In the field of social/developmental care, there is a honest, genuine concern about providing direction and proper assistance, without stepping on the shoes of people who need to make their own decisions in life. That he worded it with “the reason I’m pushing on this is because” is deeply appreciative to me, and marks the work of a professional in my eyes: He recognized a problem, attempted to engage Hisao with it individually and personally, and did not direct or take from Hisao, but gave him more context and an explanation for the intensity. Very good writing there. That being said, is there not a PE-class made specifically for these teenagers, with emphasis to strengthen health problems? Out-of-curricular exercise does make sense in Hisao’s case: If he even had a water bottle or books to lift everyday within his own room regularly, that would be quite good. But the efforts of the school should be accommodating different classes or smaller-size gym related activities for them. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 20:00
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Falconier111 posted:I didn't want to t guy the conversation earlier, but: Nidoking, Haifisch, Psycho Lawnmower, and EclecticTastes, you've all posted things I'd like to throw into the OP. Permission? No problem at all. Yeah, thirding and fourthing my distaste for Kenji as well, especially after he purposely stood in our way physically and with audacity in order to ask for money. At least I’m convinced he’s not what I thought he was. There is a level of social premeditation that does not resonate the way I thought it did. Someone mentioned Misha above as well, and I want to bring that up, because I feel that’s pertient. I see that comment, and I agree with it. I am a DSP for developmentally disabled adults, and my grandmother and both my aunts work professionally for the deaf community in schools and agencies. They have mentioned something that others have above, but it is also a plot point, I think? Edit: Fair enough. My bad. I’d argue the game is trying to do heavy lifting, and I recognize certain elements as I have them, but no problem. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 14:31
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'so you're *both* stupid' Wow. Yes, give me a reason to find you rather unprofessional, why don't you? And they're still teenagers despite disabilities-even if you're in the right, manner matters. Especially in cases like this, where being the adult in the room, being able to make people feel like they're not being attacked is critical. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jun 9, 2021 |
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Jun 9, 2021 21:05
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Blaziken386 posted:
Absolutely. That’s what Hisao should have done, no question. In best-case scenarios, that should have happened. But we are dealing with teenagers, and on top of that, within a school where the environment of disability and dealing with it-especially for a transfer student-would be a call of some intense social pressure. I mention that because the Nurse might not have known that, but he was aware of Hisao’s condition when he asked Emi to keep an eye out for him. Of course, what stands for HIPPA in this setting would prevent him (rightly, and for good reason, good on you there, Nurse) from directly stating Hisao’s condition, but informing Emi to ‘not push or goad him, please’ isn’t a breach: he knows his patients, and if asked directly, he could have give the “I can’t tell you” dance, but reiterate the advice given. I find the Nurse, likely because Paraprofessionals and medical at school/site practice was not as tightly researched for the game, made a big error…and then hoisted it onto kids, which is a bad look. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Jun 10, 2021 |
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Jun 10, 2021 12:55
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Oh sure. Feel free-more this spreads and we engage, the better. Edit: Teacher right here? Really good example, if a bit personally affronted (which I think is okay in this case) of how to handle expressing what he needed. Took him outside and away from earshot of classmates clearly expressed concern, asked leading questions to express gravity. Like that. That Hisao feels pressured and controlled..that could be teenager or associated to his feelings with his disability for the first time, but I’m unsure Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 15:53
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Hrmmm. I dunno, that felt a bit touchy, but understandably so. Clearly, taking away Hisao’s agency to have what he wishes is touchy, because if there was a concern for the school regarding health habits and food, staff would take care of that. Like get the Nurse to redirect Hisao instead? Not sure how much more I’d have found that. That being said, what would be their functional alternatives, at a festival? That being said, he did cake. I’m glad.
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Jun 17, 2021 20:51
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Glad to see the conversations and information come around, very important and one of the best parts of this LP.Falconier111 posted:
Wanna draw attention here, because it does feel that way to me when Hisao engages with Emi the most-a consistent lack of personal agency. Which is a big deal for those who are ND, but I can't imagine it is any less of a concern for those with physical disabilities. He's aware of that, at least...which makes me feel better. A certain degree of agency and personal decision making loss is expected with Hisao's condition, but that usually is fine from professionals who have experience and know what they are doing, and know how to talk to someone who has these concerns. This being a school, that's probably more laid back? That this is also very 'animu' in terms of "guy is here, girl is here, girl insists, guy goes along with it without even reasonable fuss" is something to point out as well, but at least I feel like Hisao snark means he has a sense of humor about it. That, and he literally chose to go see Emi at the end, which helps way more.
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Jun 23, 2021 16:28
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"Um... I don't know yet?"
"Honestly, Hisao, after I went through all the trouble of letting you run with me in the morning, you won't even show up at my track meet?"
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ChrisBTY posted:I feel like Emi might be a little too pushy. Yeah, I have to agree. It's the agency thing I mentioned before.
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Jun 23, 2021 22:53
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Falconier111 posted:
You are exactly right, Falcioner. One moment please.  There we go. Yeah, this nurse should have been fired at this stage, and fined. It’s not just that he’s willing to share personal information-which is bad enough for both those above-but he’s clearly willing to both claim and leverage a personal relationship with a client in the past with other clients, and tell them to do his job responsibility by being ‘discreet’? And I certainly feel like Hisao is part of the problem, but the blame can’t be levied on him. He’s a kid, likely unaware of the way you have to eggshell this, and thinks he’s talking to a knowledgeable adult and a good friend bantering. I have a connection with my clients. I certainly don’t go speaking about their personal lives or backgrounds. For those who say the breach makes sense for story: I see where you are coming from, but we have two very legitimate people who could give Hisao the same information without a breach: Rin-who certainly has a connection to Emi, a friendly relationship with Hisao, would have this information readily available, and that casual conversation with personal spaces like dorms or isolated areas (but not the school building or public spaces) wouldn’t be a breach she’s get in trouble for. Second is the Mother here. She can say what she wants, as long as Emi’s wishes are factored in somewhere. They don’t technically have to be, but that is just good form. And of course, you know, Emi herself. Like…he also appeared to be joking with Emi about ‘giving her a peek’ which wow…I am harping on this because trust does not come easy. This kind of demanded health information privacy is basically in place to give the bare minimum of trust between workers and staff, so that staff is listened to, because the client knows they won’t do things like this. That aside….this is a cute scene at the track meet. I appreciate that Emi finds herself more in running, and we saw that with the Near-Death Race for Hisao. Still…I sense that she’ll be generally closed-off, since Hisao can’t quite match her own drive or give her a chance to be her “Emiest” without literally putting him with the most unprofessional medical professional I’ve seen in a piece of media for several hours. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jun 28, 2021 |
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Jun 28, 2021 14:23
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translated legalese), but in general Japanese medical privacy laws are even stricter: even patients rarely have access to their own medical records. So 
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Speaking of Kenji, hopefully for the last time....Personally, I would have been quite okay if the professionals in the setting were engaged with him, specifically. This is the kind of thing that paras and DSPs are used to dealing with, alongside the physical needs of the clients at the school. Part of that would be to model and advocate communication for behaviors that would make others rather uncomfortable, which given the circumstances, I'm sure everyone is currently feeling at the moment. And it would leave less overall "wth" moments. And it wouldn't be like a professional or teacher wouldn't allow him to speak, I think there'd have been a sense of "are you sure you meant this, or are you trying to say something else, because you're worried, and you don't know how to say it differently?" which happens in the job. The whole idea of Direct Support Professional work is to be on those front lines: where the feelings and individual agency matter, but showing them how to curb back some problematic behaviors with modeling and communication examples. Now that we're past the spotlight he's been given, I'm just in this state where I feel like services would be something he could really benefit from. And as such, I imagine a few people are like: "Wait, you want to engage with him in this way? Are you totally insane?" To which I'd say....yeah, probably. But that is the job, for sure.
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Jul 1, 2021 17:15
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BurningBeard posted:Maybe someone else wants to tackle this, but a paraprofessional would absolutely need to be there for him. Let’s set aside the problematic viewpoints that became prevalent. Authors couldn’t have known that a gross and vocal subculture would end up so front-and-center some years after the release of this work. Exactly right. I mentioned it because I’m a paraprofessional. Admittedly, also an autistic paraprofessional, which has lead to a spike in my overall anxiety, but knowing the beast and that communication is key actually helps a lot in my job. If Kenji were my client, and this would be a conversation I wouldn’t be having on here otherwise due to the nature of medical practice and confidentiality…but let’s all go on the Magic School Bus: I feel it would be prudent to assist in physical actions where needed, ask leading questions to learn where the books came from, and when we got to the “WOMEN AGH” stuff, reframe it: ‘I understand that you feel this way-between us, right? Do you ever think how others might feel listening to you?” Model and engage, try and spur empathy through framing the viewpoint, using their own logic to make a point, etc. And let me be clear: Given my own developmental concerns, it took me a long time and a lot of self-perspective to try and build a sense of communicative empathy that this job requires. I originally was getting services before I was approached with “Hey, your sense of communication is unlike anything our agency has ever seen. You want a job?’ I’m talking about this so I can ignore the nurse today. I’ve said all I need to say there. For Running 101: I apologize if I misunderstood you, but when you say “you will hurt yourself” that sounds like a absolute, which always feels weird without more info. Wouldn’t the person be able to eventually work past the stress they did to make gains, or be able to push themselves harder? Far be it from me to be known for exercise outside what I do at home or at work or breaks, but I see people generally pushing themselves for hours at a time at a gym when I go with clients.
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Jul 9, 2021 17:00
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Falconier111 posted:
Oh yeah, sure! Standing orders to put things up from now on too, is fine as well. As for this situation, yeah pressing was the right call. If someone isn't aware of chooses to keep up appearances, then paras and the like won't notice anything either until it is too late, and that not only affects the person, it can affect liveihoods. Of course, going to staff would make sense, but they have to dance around things...and press and respond only towards the efforts of the client, unless there is significant harm that could come from it. This...might be one of those cases, but the language is a bit vague for me to be entirely sure. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jul 9, 2021 |
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Jul 9, 2021 20:10
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posts over the last couple pages. Psycho Lawnmower, Violet_Sky, Dance Officer, StrangeAeon, Danakir, I’d like to include some of your posts in the OP. My dedication to oral history ethical standards is decaying over time, but it’s still intact enough that I need your explicit permission (in the thread or in a PM) to include them in the OP, and you have the right to have the link expunged at any time. You can also grant me blanket permission to archive your posts; the magic words are “permission unless requested otherwise”, or some less artificial phrasing of the same idea. Mikl, EclecticTastes, Nidoking, ChrisBTY (I think, if I read your post right), I’m planning on selecting some of your posts and you all already given blanket permission, so you don’t have to respond if you don’t want to. You all can still request I take something down or retract that permission whenever you want.
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That's rough, and I'm very sorry you had to deal with that. I hope you've found ways to reframe and communicate who you want to say, and intone the emotions you wish to express. Feelings can absolutely be a mess-my mother and sister are both going to be going to a wedding for my cousin, and it is an affair that leads to a lot of anxiety. Not everyone can go (Covid restrictions), but because they're dealing with the tension, their runoff feeds into me. This is happening while I'm moving into full-time work with an Agency. While trying to make sure my other clients don't feel like seeing me less won't feel like a betrayal, and planning means and methods to make sure I'm working with one, and going on-call with the other. Suffice to say... 
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Jul 9, 2021 22:15
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So onto the infection…like, do I think Emi has to have some of that awareness on not knowing her own body and not paying attention to herself? I think so, and especially towards Hisao, who she completely ignored through claim of his health being more important, taking his agency to influence her. Not a good look…(and there’s was also the ‘kids wear helmets’ thing she said…which feels pretty insensitive, but it is not the most insensitive thing we’ve seen.) But I think it is important to know that Nurse was in a perfect position-given a past experience with the client, and which is far more friendly than it should be-to have noticed this before Hisao had. He sees her everyday, and was likely checking on her general form beforehand as part of protocol. Like…how do I put this…paraprofessionals engage with clients in different ways, which can turn friendly due to the connection and awareness they both share in the same space. That’s a likely set of events, and shouldn’t be understated. As someone who has both ASD and works in the field: when I engage with the families of clients, I emphasize the nature that communication in a friendly way that puts the client at ease is very important to my style of work. What Nurse did was take what Emi said at face value, without any follow-up or an inkling that she-emotionally-was trying to impress someone else to the point of running her body down? Like, the actual violations are the real oversights, and I don’t need to touch on those, but this isn’t far behind, outside the narrative and into the realm of ethical work responsibility.
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Jul 15, 2021 20:53
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Falconier: Thanks. I have enough stressors from work, and that mandate just helps me deal with enough anxiety. Like…I will need to find what he did, because I’m me..but I have no interest in discussing it, if it is going to make my brain go “how do I stop that action cold with words and make him realize it.” Yeah, I’m for Hanako. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Jul 17, 2021 |
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Jul 17, 2021 13:33
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So to discuss that…I feel for both of them, but mainly for Hisao. He had no idea how to handle that situation in a way that communicated against her accusations. I appreciate the immediate apology she made. He did the right thing, in the only way I think he knew how: Engage with her directly, as she did with him and got positive results, and push her on it as she had with his running-it…might be intense, and I don’t really care for it on either side, but you’re willing to do it to someone else, you have to be willing to take it. One of the big things I’ve talked about before is communication as a para-because engagement matters a lot with how to approach something like this. I’ve heard several times that ‘I’m on the front lines’ not only for immediate medical and social intervention between clients, but also to help them communicate their concerns. You see Matou do that well: - Establish a common interest he shares with the student. - Use said common interest to establish repore and reframe an emotional situation already known to put things into proper context-give them the tools to make the link, perhaps hint towards it, but be careful crossing it. - Show positivity through said connection being made be the person. Hisao could not have known to do this-he had the info, but not the time and experience required to properly use her general interests and experience to make her feel at ease: “Have you gotten back to warming up and stretching? Does it still hurt? Have you went to the Nurse about it? They are here to help everyone in the school. Surely you want to go back to running as soon as you can, right? What’s going on-you can talk if you want to.” A lot more impetus on their choices and how they’re dealing with it, a care to keep personal connection out of it, drawing the feelings back to their choices, their feelings. Hisao did the best he could, given the circumstances. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Jul 20, 2021 |
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Jul 20, 2021 01:49
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Falcioner111 posted:"Well, I guess I can fill you in on this without violating my strict non-interference policy when it comes to Emi making stupid decisions. The anniversary of her accident is coming up soon. She gets depressed around this time, because it was a pretty traumatic event, considering what she lost.” What the funk did this dude just say- Also, no he didn't. He certainly didn't give accident information, but the advice about her nature shouldn't have been given out either. I mean....at this stage, what's the harm? If she refuses to listen to any and all people, you might as well go full-bore. Something has to stick eventually, even if that is: "You realize that you hurting yourself resonates to me. Shape up." Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jul 21, 2021 |
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Jul 21, 2021 22:20
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I’m not sure I see a difference between those two on a social sense, but that may be due to misreading it? Emi refuses assistance flat out, because she cannot allow herself to accept it. That she has done this is not Hisao’s fault, and pushing back against her attitude and claims of the contrary is similar to what she did to him initially. He’s giving what she gave back to him. How is that not acting to her benefit, except that he’s a wall made of carefully-chosen words, and she’s a tempered brick wall that actually could use someone trying to smash it? Like..if she’s stubborn, that’s on her? Acting against that stubbornness-especially if it leads to her causing self-harm-is correct. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 18:40
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Notahippie posted:The White Knight idea is all about the Knight himself - he's the actor, he's the one saving the damsel who is mostly a passive actor. Hisao managed to take that idea and flip it, saying that he sees Emi as the one who is strong and active and he wants to help. He wants to be the assistant rather than the hero, which is less insulting to Emi. It recognizes her agency. In doing so, it feels like he cut himself out…or at least, be the impetus of the change…but cut himself out of decision making, to give her more? As work..I do this all the time. Because it is good to assist, and the clients need it, and providing that kind of assistance and agency is in the description. As a relationship? Feels like he’s willingly stepping back when it should be a more clear division of effort? This is definitely my own confusion talking, but it seems like he purposely and permanently losing agency to give her more. Which causes anxiety-at least for me.
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Jul 26, 2021 20:03
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:
That helps a lot. Thank you.
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Jul 26, 2021 22:05
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Falconier111 posted:
So, I side with the notion of dealing with these problems…not out of disrespect for Emi’s choices. Each of those choices she has made has helped Hisao, and up until the infection and general emotional problems she was clearly experiencing, all of her decisions had very great impact on their agency, but involved herself in other people, to their benefit. She would be good working with people, if needing someone to talk to her to respect choices, and talk to other about advising choice. But I side with that notion because she is running the risk of hurting herself so irrecoverably and not getting the treatment that she needs that pressing the envelope requires a bit of a shakeup. There’s a difference between “allowing someone to make their own mistakes” and “allowing physical and mental self-harm that needs to be prevented by friends and staff.” I mentioned this earlier with a better Nurse and Emi: In a closed room with no chance of anyone listening, asking leading questions about her condition, what is happening with connection with Hisao-without giving anything about Hisao’s condition (“You saw what happened at the track, right? That’s why you stepped up to help him, right?”), draw a link between Emi’s interest in running with her father, let her talk what comes natural. I think…that’s why the Nurse goes out of his way and risks his job, from where I’m standing. If you can imagine the effort and reaction Emi gives Hisao, I’m sure you’d imagine the kind of reaction someone dealing with her issues might have with talks like “You can’t walk for a couple days” and “you know your own protocol with sterilization and maintenance of your legs between us. What happened?” He shouldn’t have done it, in any respect, or at least learned from Matou-Matou handled it the right way with the Quark analogy, absolutely brilliant-but I get why he did it. Hisao’s heart was in the right place, and I mentioned earlier-as an developmentally-disabled adult-that his willingness to step back felt like he was not willing to press his own agency, and was in fact cedeing it for her benefit-which didn’t feel right either.. The big takeaway that I thought made Hisao’s point bad was the level of emotion he gave to acting in her benefit. He was so sure that it was needed and that he knew what to do that the…assurance is something I would have said: “Hey, hold on…take a deep breath…1…2…3…do you know what to do here? Are you sure?” Am I sympathetic for Emi? Absolutely-especially since Hisao only barely knew the right words, but not the right emotional outlook. Do I think intervention was required? Ooooh yeah. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Jul 30, 2021 |
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Jul 29, 2021 21:29
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Hellioning posted:If she did, I think the choice made sense. This is just fan speculation, but sitting in the chair she did allows her to look at Lilly, her friend, without having to turn her head, instead of looking at a relative stranger. Plus, it allows her to hide her scars behind her hair without worrying too much about Hisao seeing when she turns her head or whatever. In a generous lens, and one I have from experience…it may be possible that Hanako feels that given the known space, and with at least one person she can absolutely trust, that this was an attempt to come out of her comfort zone, since she could actively control the environment. Which means she’s not only suffering from anxiety, but is aware of that fact and is doing her best to push past it, within her own space and environment. That being said, kudos to Hisao here. Some of his internal comments about stating disability and needed to use silk gloves are a bit weird, but we’re still early in the year…but I wanted to highlight the emotional effort in the face of compounding anxiety. As we saw with having that conversation in the lunch room, as simple as it was…it can resonate, and effect him as well-not by any fault of her own, but the nature of her fears and concerns simply draw others to think similarly…but he did continue to engage, and Hanako continued to engage back. Because he was willing to walk there within the eggshells, she opened up. I’m glad we’re doing it this way: last time it was a physical need, and emotional care through social means was done last, but we’re getting that ‘’muscle’ trained first. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Aug 3, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 14:59
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You say we're now operating in our best interest, but as I recall, saying to "Go for It." nearly brought Hisao down. Taking it easy might be way better, as long as he maintains it.
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Aug 5, 2021 00:19
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Ooh, tough question. One is fully of work that appeals to my lizard, lessen-anxiety brain due to the rhythm of simple work. The other is a fun game that is really hard to master.. I’m going to say Offices because less anxiety is good.
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Aug 6, 2021 13:18
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I really like this version of Hisao so far. His general agency-giving abilities are much higher, he’s checking with Hanako’s sense of comfort…even in this last choice, we see a clear choice that involves allowing her to make her own decisions.. I dunno, for some reason, I feel like I’m being red-herringed? I really shouldn’t feel that-it all really is much more positive on his end-but it seems great to me.
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Aug 13, 2021 19:53
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Falconier111 posted:
This idea is interesting, when you’re an paraprofessional, whose training both encompasses both aspects of ‘prevent and work through not only physical, emotional and social harm’ and ‘allow your clients to make mistakes and grow independently.’ Yes, you expect that the notion of individuals within your agency is “we all have a reason to be here, and because of that, we all need some sense of respect and care for others’ but there are the…Kenjis…of the programs, for lack of a better word. We’re supposed to engage and respect those feelings, and help them to sort them out. The other point is in when to engage. I have had colleagues tell me to not engage on a social level, I have had to engage in social situations that are insulting and hurtful to teach through empathic awareness, I have had trainings where-for example, Supported Employment-where we are supposed to consider the nature of the business and its needs over the client’s own comfort or anxieties, for the job. which is anathema and heretical at the best of times, but the client also needs to work and respect the work culture. In the school, we’ve seen one excellent individual para moments, and one not so great…Yuuko is a bit on the shaky side-almost playing with too much of a silk glove-but her heart is clearly in the right place. I have no doubt that Matou has had to do a “Hey. Stop it you two, come after class, speak to both offenders with no punishment but empathy.” Conversation with analogy and workaround as we’ve seen 1-to-1 with Emi’s route. How much would the school stamp down on ‘human nature’, like Lilly says…that’s an interesting question. The answer that I can give is my own: within agency-giving reason, you are supposed to engage and support where available, find natural supports (as Hisao and Lilly are to Hanako), and allow them to do the work…but you’re still there. You’re supposed to be there. Which is why the absence of Matou is…interesting to me, but not concerning. Not yet.
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Aug 16, 2021 22:44
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This example aside, with the obvious social faux pas…I’m noticing a lot of talking that Hisao and Lilly are doing about Hanako, without Hanako being a part of those conversations. Where I stand currently? I feel like Lilly always had these concerns, and is very much a person of action. Once Hisao also entered the picture and worked to Hanako’s support and comfort, Lilly saw an ally..I don’t think we’ve hit anything worrying yet, though. It certainly doesn’t help that I’m reading a manga called “Komi Can’t Communicate” which is showing social communication disorder and the similar, but functionally different kinds of anxieties between someone who wishes to communicate with excellent (and romantic as well) friend support in the person’s first friend, and Kawata Shojo-a story that has our MC learning quickly, but with enough foibles and smaller pitfalls. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 20:32
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Ibblebibble posted:I guess this is the route where the nurse cares about patient confidentiality. Yeah, can’t say I’m shocked, and Unshocked by that. I’m sure we’ll find something else later. Hisao got the teacher, good job there. Matou…now I agree with his actions and getting that done, and letting Hisao out of class-good idea on a panic attack shakeup…but he did give more than he should, without directly saying anything which is…questionable but fine. Where I’m a little bothered is his response about “what do you think we do here” because that’s your argument for their success, and not help them with their issues? You’re supposed to be giving them more time and effort. The fact that your class apparently has enough numbers and not enough people to deal with that panic attack means that your general school is flawed, sir. Perhaps not you-you did what you could given what you had-but that it got that far without intervention and it required an able student to bring this to your attention… What Matou is trying to saying is that, instead of doing 10-2 or 10-1-2 (Ten students, 1 Teacher…or 10 students, 1 teacher, 2 Assistants/Paraprofessionals) and providing the general needs of the students directly or accommodating their issues, which makes me wonder if a IEP or PDP (Individual Education Plan, or Personal Development Plan, respectively) was actually done…none of these services are being done, providing enough general support for what is needed/required for specific students, but creating an environment that is akin to a normal school, and to allow them to enter society as productive people. I guess this means I’m not gonna like Matou this route. Still better general professional ethics than Nurse. That is a valid method, but has so many problems . A student, who means well and did the right thing but has no general experience, should not have been the one to take Hanako out of that situation. He could have been supportive, and offer to assist, but that was a point where Matou was in his duty to call for another staff member. And then proceed to lecture Hisao about the lack of general need-what the heck are you doing!? What about : “You got me, that was the right thing to do, Hisao. I know you’re worried about her, but allow us to do our jobs…” instead of that future stuff, or-even better-“I appreciate your concern, Hisao, but consider that your time in school should be to make connections and learn. You’re doing just that with this…and your judgment is sound. There was only so much that you could do, okay?”
Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Aug 31, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2021 18:18
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Falconier111 posted:[b]Update 52: The Beginning of the End[/ Ooh, that’s really tough as presented fact through the lens of a anxiety disorder. There was a non-zero chance that Hanako would have froze up on the spot, or-as emphatically as possible-want to return to the dorms and hang out with Hisao there. You’re right to say to check of course. Makes perfect sense.. I dunno, aren’t we too hard on Hisao here? This one clearly learned the lesson it took getting into a fight with Emi to accomplish, without the need for greater drama. He’s acting in ways that I’ve seen people do in my field: check her agency, offer advice with no expectation, check in with trusteds. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Sep 10, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 17:00
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Do you remember when I mentioned two flaws in Hisao’s logic? The first is that he’s mind reading. He assumes he knows Hanako well enough to anticipate her wants and needs. But while he often makes the right decisions… He doesn’t. Not really. He admits it himself; every time he thinks he’s wrapped his head around her, something else comes up that calls his assumptions into question. It’s pretty clear that she does have feelings for him at this point, and we also know she’ll be lonely without Lilly around. Why not just… Do something with her? Treat her like she can make her own decisions about how she feels instead of assuming she’s going to go hide again.
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Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Sep 11, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 17:08
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I am supposed to agree with this assessment, from someone who admitted to manipulating the situation? It feels like the story isn’t pointing the obvious, so I need to? When it comes to Hisao’s response to Hanako, he always checked with level of comfort and her willingness to engage first. That is purely agency-empowering. Yes, there is a bit of “Don’t let her stand on eggshells.” which is true of both Lilly and Hisao, not just him, and if we’re gonna get down on someone who is providing the support I expect-especially over the professionals. I do not see where this argument-by the game- is being made in good faith. Of course, he shouldn’t be making decisions for her, but when has he? She chose to play chess and get better. He checked with her level of comfort when alone and out into the city with Lilly and her sister-she made those decisions, he empowered her to make those decisions. He is reasonably worried about her current response, but did not force the issue or get the staff on a hunch…which we’ve kinda proven aren’t willing to do their work, or waffle on those responsibilities based on the story. And agreeing with Lilly just burns him further! He has choices he gets to make as well without being drawn into decisions that are not his own. 
Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 16:27
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Quackles posted:I think the game is trying to take the point of view that even asking her "Do you want to do X?" counts as a leading question, and she's just going along with it to not have to think about it. Right, there’s no other choice but to engage, step back and allow decisions to be made in their time. Which-as far as I can tell, outside of general thought processes that seem red-flaggy but have not actually been said or acted upon-out of respect and appreciation for Hanako and Lilly both-he has done. I mean, the general response I can think of is to note the person’s stressors and general triggers in a broad sense, have a conversation with them-in their space, in their greatest means of comfort- that involves said stressors within their level of comfort and with careful, concise language, and engage on their speed over a long period. Same method used by Com-Hab, Respite, and SEMP. Then find interactions and activities baser on those feelings..but that’s asking a lot of Hisao already. In the practical space, though, Hisao has done what I expect people to do: Check comfort levels and ask, speak with inner circles about the situation (though I’m not sure how much she is after that bit), engage within the level of comfort-because Hanako wished to engage and did so. Pulled away points of stress (Misha and Shizune) and told them politely their behavior was misguided. And Lilly certainly overstepped herself, with both Hanako’s present thing and here. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 16:51
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EclecticTastes posted:This really hits on the root of the problem, is that Hisao's thoughts and actions so far have often treated Hanako as less than an equal, which is not only patronizing in general, but it's also specifically frustrating and hurtful for Hanako in the context of her interactions with Hisao, for reasons which may already be obvious and will be made even more clear within the next few updates. Several of the actions Hisao has done are standard practice for people who work with others in the field, and general empathy work. Are you saying that those are patronizing as well? That’s a hard sell. Thoughts? He certainly thinks what he thinks…if any of that showed up, I would expect Lilly to have stepped on the redflag a little harder, but he hasn’t reacted-it’d be like Kenji. Kudos to the writers? I cannot imagine another DS protagonist doing the work Hisao has done already. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 18:55
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Hisao is a peer, not a professional. It'd be super patronising if a friend, let alone a romantic interest, treated every conversation with you as if they were a therapist or a guardian type figure. Still better than being unaware of these elements, and tumbling into a conversation that makes Hanako unwilling to communicate with him. It’s why the choice of “Shopping/“Perhaps go home” was a big deal. Why don’t we go back a bit? First couple days, if he had not considered and responded to her general needs and acted accordingly, would she have been receptive? Would Lilly have been, due to her relationship with Hanako? Let’s go back even further than that. If he had approached Emi with this mentality and general empathy, he wouldn’t have run headlong into her hypercompetitiveness masking trauma. He may have figured something out, because he was more receptive to the needs of the person.he was with. Is he overcompensating now? Yeah, definitely. But the framework he used to get here does have merit. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 20:19
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I respect that you disagree. Is it wrong to treat friends and loved ones as cases to deal with? Yes. I think Hisao is overextending, but I also understand the elements by which he came to this conclusion, and how Hanako has been receptive to this before-giving her agency, checking in. Looking at Hisao’s relationship with Hanako, compared to even the initial connections he made with Misha and Shizune, Lilly, Emi and Rin-heck, even Kenji-is a different situation. He jokes with her, but not his dry humor. His concern is understandable, if not lacking a certain context. I’ve worked with people with onset anxiety, and the family and loved ones who deal with it. There is a lot of this general light walking-changing of one’s behavior to better make sure they are not causing a triggering response and get away as quickly as possible. Do you hope for a natural socialization? Of course you do-that’s the point-but there are elements that require a lighter touch. Edit: It is entirely possible that is the case, and I misread-he was still not as snarky as he usually is -he did have to adjust himself-but his normal behavior may have been the trigger. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 21:28
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This is all the weirder, because socially speaking, this Hisao is romantically speaking the same Hisao from Route 1? Usual quips, pining over someone in thought snippets but doesn’t get the words out… Also, in terms of the romantic aspects, this “circling around each other” is why I find it hard to get into romances, even if they have none of the really annoying “we will conflict for the stupidest of reasons that any one conversation between reasonable adults can fix.” All the dancing around doesn’t make much sense to me as an autistic person. The only person.who can help you realize your feelings, express them and draw them out is the other person, but the people just aren’t saying anything! Hanako does have a pass here-of course.
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Sep 16, 2021 13:58
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Very cute…I’m not entirely sure how much I feel Hisao has done anything wrong-mostly being thrown into Lilly’s general machinations and following that lead-but misinterpretation was clearly present everywhere and no one knew how to read each other, so story of my general experience. I stand by the actions he made on paper though. That he was willing to listen, engage and give her choices are all viable things in relationships regardless of a disability, but more so there given how often it is ignored.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:09
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Falconier111 posted:It also, not coincidentally, gives Hisao a blueprint for how to behave the next time something like this happens, one that dovetails with everything else we’ve been seeing: give her support and friendship but listen to her when she tries to set boundaries, supporting her AND her decisions instead of just generically supporting her. That’s how you give help and respect agency. Good essay and well put. Given that blowup, it was clear his response was overblown and that he didn’t notice it. I admit to noticing his general actions as correct, but the feelings behind them to be reactive towards responses he couldn’t have known were too much, but still were. This part speaks really differently to me, when this comes off the back that the only way we can go down this route is to listen-and engage Hisao’s agency-into listening to someone who didn’t care for either his or Hanako’s. Lilly manipulated and drew them both into a situation that was designed to make Hisao realize those things-which has a positive-but still required both them to be drawn into someone else’s action and not expressing their own. If this is about respect of agency, falling into line behind her doesn’t strike me as expression, but more following someone who admitted to doing wrong, and-in that bad ending and even the good-isn’t made to account for it. And on that same point: I am good to hear that she sees a therapist…but she probably put up boundaries to them too. You need to also be able to try and deal with them while respecting them. There is a non-zero chance that she would not have come out of the room, and by respecting her boundaries by the blueprint, she doesn’t engage with him at all-that would be her decision as well, and would also be unhealthy mentally and physically. Like….I agree with the sentiment you put forward. I also recognize that if it was that simple of allowing her to push boundaries on her own, support those boundaries when nescessay and she can’t deal, and give over choice and your own agency so that she could express her own moreover, she could just withdraw. And she did. Thankfully she came out of it, but I guess that doesn’t get discussed. Edit: This route is a story about agency. This whole thread has elements and stories about people who feel like they cannot make decisions. Part of my job description requires engaging with that. And then the story decided to cut two of them out, by the actions of a third, to make the point it wanted to make about respecting it. That seems a bit of a problem, storytelling-wise. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Sep 22, 2021 |
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Sep 22, 2021 21:17
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