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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Pretty much. Its main issue is being connected to Laffer, Rumsfeld and Cheney but that's exactly the point nobody argues against the concept of taxation efficiency, which is what the laffer curve insinuates itself to be about, but because mainstream economics is blind to the rhetoric and discourse itself creates or thinks it does not exist, the critical and most consequential point of the laffer curve is thoroughly missed: that it is an ideological argument veiled through a technicality to cut taxes on the wealthier strata of society, with any of the supposed benefits not happening at all, which is why it is bullshit
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Jun 1, 2021 21:59
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:The Laffer Curve itself is not bullshit again, it is, but not in the way you are thinking right now (that's what I meant about the rhetoric in economics btw). art laffer was a reaganite economist whose napkin illustration in a dinner party thoroughly transformed a well-established and highly complex area of interest of economics, namely taxation efficiency, into a single graph to say, "mr president, we should try to find the top spot of this graph, and I fully believe that the government taxes too much". The man didn't invent the idea at all, but by illustrating in the manner and in the context which he did, it became an ideological tool much as any other to benefit the wealthy, and in this respect, again, it is bullshit as the technical shorthand to illustrate taxation efficiency? no, it isn't, but that is why thinkers on the left do not refer to it by that: it became a concept like many others such as the homo economicus to justify monumental dumbassery in the field. Laffer got the presidential medal of freedom from trump in 2019 for his contributions to economics and I think that alone might explain a loving lot
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Jun 1, 2021 22:24
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Tomn posted:Weren't a good chunk of secret alliances secret as much because of the potential domestic political backlash as because of the greater diplomatic repercussions? I actually think that is exactly the point, just phrased in a way that simplifies the understanding for the player like, for example, the WW1 clusterfuck wasn't secret, but you had to be a very well informed individual with substantial access to actually spot the big picture and realize the many, many problems around it. There was a significant degree of clusterfuck among monarchist conservatives/reactionaries (the ones who had some awareness on the matter) about why in the gently caress Wilhelm and Nicholas, blood relatives, had to duke it out because of some whatever bullshit in Austria, then it got even weirder when another guy back in the room said "isn't George related as well?!?!"
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Jun 5, 2021 01:35
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Mantis42 posted:Clear cause and effect is basic game design if you can have some sort of signal that, for example, I am playing Denmark and Sweden has something going on with Prussia, that would be good (regarding playing the game) however, continuing the WW1 example from earlier on, doing the thingie where this sort of stuff would affect pops is the sort of amazing lunacy proper to the series: pops getting pissed off after a while because they are going "wait a minute why in the gently caress we are fighting to begin with?!?!" would be awesome (not expecting it at all though) (American soldiers coming back to the country and thinking you know that was total bullshit and maybe those bolsheviks are on to something lmao)
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Jun 5, 2021 05:45
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Germany started the war and it intended to and that's not incompatible to German soldiers having a totally sack of poo poo situation on their hands as well and a large part of German leadership not getting the full picture all they knew is that they had to fight the UK eventually to settle the domination score because imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism
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Jun 5, 2021 17:13
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Randarkman posted:That's looking at it incredibly simplistically oh yeah, totally; I was talking about the feel the guys in the boardroom had more than anything else that war was the dismal war because it was completely loving unnecessary
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Jun 5, 2021 17:32
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dead gay comedy forums posted:oh yeah, totally; I was talking about the feel the guys in the boardroom had more than anything else explaining the average tom, hans, ivan, jean, johnny, ali and giuseppe that this war was a consequence of a massive geopolitical shift happening in decades, with a diplomatic configuration that became increasingly more complex and messy each and every passing year as some 20km² of Africa or Asia that none of them even heard about became a matter of life or death for King (or Prez) and Country: ONE LAST WAR TO END THEM ALL, FOREVER AND EVER one of them asks: "how, tho" *gets carried out, court-martialed, shot*
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Jun 5, 2021 17:39
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I am the hearts instead of eyes emoji, beholding material conditions AnEdgelord posted:Yeah avoiding the Civil War should be an appropriately arduous undertaking that may not even be worth it compared to just ripping off the bandaid and going through with the war but it should be an option on the table so long as it has a baseline historical plausibility to it. look, if this game doesn't gimme the option to get lincoln to lay low in the white house for a while, the implementation of the secret service a good deal earlier and the grant/sherman extraordinary comission for a "Ultra-Turbo-Reconstruction", I can't even
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Jun 8, 2021 14:27
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Enjoy posted:Authority: -200 ("brb dealing with racism in Savannah" - Sherman)
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Jun 8, 2021 14:35
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 choo choo mfers
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Jun 9, 2021 16:18
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tbqh if there is an icon that's enough confirmation victoria 3 has armored railroad batteries, send it to press
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Jun 9, 2021 16:29
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reading v2 posting makes me glad that one of the major things that they are going for this time is truly supporting a tall playstyle the older design really kneecapped a lot of regions in the world by making plenty of resources not available to them when they have in immense abundance (like iron in Brazil or coal in Colombia), not to mention pop growth/immigration difficulties if you are outside the better "life quality" zones (what a horrible mechanic lmao)
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Jun 9, 2021 21:55
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quote:Many of these buildings are limited by locally available resources such as Arable Land for agriculture and simply how much iron is available in the state for Iron Mines. Urban Buildings such as Factories however, are only limited by how many people you can cram into the state, simulating the more densely populated nature of cities. In short, there is no system of building ‘slots’ or anything like that, as we want limitations on buildings to function in a sensible and realistic way. wiz be praised
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Jun 10, 2021 17:52
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Hellioning posted:I cannot wait for a bug in which West Virginia and/or Virginia ends up with too much or too little population and it seems like people either cloned themselves or disappeared. I swear that pdox figured that out with dynamic state creation somewhere
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Jun 10, 2021 22:46
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re: computational chat is amazing because a tad of the stuff being talked about had soviet theoreticians hammering on the problems somewhere in a different universe, GOSPLAN arrives at Victoria 3 by saying "so, we started to work in a game to simulate the economic conditions..."
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Jun 11, 2021 16:53
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where the gently caress are the potatoes
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Jun 16, 2021 15:25
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Gaius Marius posted:The Irish wondered the same loving love when a fellow poster goes to score
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Jun 16, 2021 15:27
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we're definitely having the banana craze and united fruit company shenanigans then
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Jun 16, 2021 16:50
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*eyes glisten* petite-bourgeoisie total sicko mode engaged
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Jul 1, 2021 03:35
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:engineers part of the trade unionists group all dutiful members in good standing of the brotherhood of locomotive engineers and trainmen
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Jul 1, 2021 16:33
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quote:What I can tell you for now is that we are currently looking into a solution where parties can form in certain countries as constellations of Interest Groups holding a shared political platform emergent political parties arising from interest groups is an absolutely amazing idea in a very correct direction while also being holy loving poo poo hard to program and probably going to cause hilarious clusterfucks both technical and in gameplay
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Jul 1, 2021 17:48
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Wiz posted:We're not going to add them if we don't feel they add to the game. our man got this
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Jul 1, 2021 18:33
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Cease to Hope posted:this is obviously whales, but it seems to imply meat is fungible. if meat is fungible, and religions are actually going to be modeled, what does this mean for meat taboos? they were actually a big deal for the colonial powers, in that even rumors of mismanagement could lead to uprisings. look let's first get the basics right, then we move into procedural sepoy revolts due to pig meat imports k
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Jul 7, 2021 22:24
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Wiz posted:Pretty much this. The main reason for the Sepoy rebellion was general British discrimination policies anyhow, the whole thing about the cartridges was IIRC basically an untrue rumor that fired up people who had other very much not untrue grievances. which is much easier to have represented in game too! Cease to Hope posted:I'm not demanding that they split up meat types or anything. I just recalled that they said they were going to tackle religious dietary taboos, and wondered if that included meat (and how they'd handle that if so). I apologize, came off far more abrasive than funny
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Jul 9, 2021 17:09
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CharlestheHammer posted:See that just seems like the basic stuff they have to cover. None of that is the more niche ones. Though state owned also isn’t socialistic exclusive or at least shouldn’t be I think with the new gameplay mechanic that is going to work much better too Prussia sure as gently caress is not going to wait on businessmen to build cannon foundries if they have to, so to speak
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Jul 9, 2021 17:11
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quote:Laws are almost always completely independent from one another. You can create a Constitutional Monarchy with hereditary succession but Universal Suffrage, or an Autocratic Presidential Republic with a strongman leader at the top of the food chain. You can have a Secret Police and still permit fully Protected Speech. wiz dude, c'mon, you guys gotta hold the pedal a bit, putting out good stuff like that when the diaries have been going for just a little while is just evil. for real. show that near release, socioeconomics junkies want to mainline this poo poo already  goddamn lmao this touch is perfect
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Jul 23, 2021 05:24
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Communist Zombie posted:I just realized, with the interest groups and laws you can simulate communist/socialist governments. How would you do fascist? I mean you can do heavy authoritarian laws and a dictatorship but how would you differentiate a bog standard strong man dictatorship and a fascist one? w/r/t game mechanics, things like: xenophobia, turbomilitarism, antagonism to socialism and everything related, reactionary in social principles state authority, ironically, isn't necessarily a characterizing aspect by itself of what we call "authoritarian" in a general sense
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Jul 28, 2021 15:55
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Gort posted:Wait, why does social security increase the political strength of industrialists? That seems backwards. institutions are differentiated from the social laws iirc? I guess this is just UX/UI issue - industrialists benefit in opposition to social security, so as that institution gains strength, they lose their bonuses and start receiving penalties while others from the proletariat start receiving bonuses, things like that devotion I'd imagine that has to do with organized religion being absolutely necessary for late modern/early contemporary education as the public school in the secular sense just came into imagination during the period. Similar thing with healthcare, with parishes being administrators of hospitals and so on, so having a greater institutional development of those factors through state and government means weakening the religious power on social affairs
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Jul 28, 2021 16:05
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this is victoria 3 update: max weber edition and he's extremely pleased I can't parse exactly the why of it but I really do like "bureaucracy" as a quantitative capacity of state action. Maybe because I did an internship years ago at the state accounting court of law and could see the problem of "why our policies aren't working?" irl. Turns out most things needed more people to attack the problem, more people means you need to budget for govt hiring and doing admission exams, this requires working with the state government to see when public hiring processes will be available because of the budget, which will probably be insufficient anyway, so the judiciary administration asks the governor's office for an additive measure to the budget, which means seeing whether the legislative is going to approve that or not, then somebody remembers that we have people that are too green and need institutional support in form of training and research for the job... poo poo like that is obviously awfully boring to do it simulation-like and it is a hideous idea whenever it appears by a certain strand of degenerate pol-sci wonk, but fun gamey abstractions of that are absolutely on-point for stuff like these - there is a lot of material concerns that go beyond the purely financial in the matters of state and government (e.g.: the USA having boatloads of cash but absolutely no institutional volition to effect policies)
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Jul 29, 2021 22:22
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PittTheElder posted:Not really no. They didn't join the Zollverein until '54 I think, which is probably why they aren't in the Prussian market, but by that logic Baden and Nassau should be out too. I come for this thread for this level of pro-tier posting, drat. wiz, get this poster for consultation immediately
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Aug 4, 2021 15:55
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Wiz posted:Baden and Nassau either joined in 1835 or early 1836 IIRC. it turns out that only this forum could produce the necessary intellectual means for this game to happen. Each and every  from a v1/v2 player is now playing a part in determining the in-game market systemEdgar Allen Ho posted:Let's talk about the real poo poo: you made mostly good choices but the Ottomans should be red, not tan. And what the absolute gently caress is up with green Two Sicilies? excel-accounting-light-green is the good ottoman color. Now, two sicilies has been green in v2, but they should be a lighter shade of yellow, of course
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Aug 4, 2021 16:21
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quote:In Victoria 3, a single unit of goods is produced and immediately sold at a price determined by how many consumers are willing to buy it at the moment of production. When this happens prices shift right away along with actual supply and demand, and trade between markets is modelled using Buy and Sell Orders. This more open economic model is both more responsive to sudden economic shifts and less prone to mysterious systemic failures where all the world’s cement might end up locked inside a warehouse in Missouri. Any stockpiling in the system is represented as cash (for example through a building’s Cash Reserves or a country’s Treasury) or as Pop Wealth, which forms the basis for Standard of Living and determines their level of consumption. fwiw this is basically one of the proposed solutions to the problem of domestic consumer goods in centralized planning: the price signal mechanism. Shift "willing to buy" to "how many people need this" and is a pretty clever model demonstration (which when used to simulate a capitalist market has the funny side-effect of COMMUNISM! solving microeconomics. lol)
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Aug 6, 2021 03:51
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Raskolnikov38 posted:fisk nearly cornered the gold market, who is to say my st. louis capitalists can't corner the cement market poo poo, we have commodity cornering all the time right now through the futures market. manipulation tactics such as JPMorgan Chase commissioning containerships to make poo poo routes or even staying at open sea in order to get better prices edit: lotsa edits
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Aug 6, 2021 04:33
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given how V3 economics look so far, crisis theory mechanisms should be pretty much their own thing apart from mainstream economics. One of the major factors of crisis theory is the considerations of time for all the effects to compound together; I am not one hell of a code jockey by any means, but I think I have been doing enough code touching to imagine how much loving processing would be necessary to properly do in the way it is in the econ manuals so every tick would require to factor for time in order to realize speculation, which would require floating prices to work adequately, as well as requiring the presence of stockpiles, to then create appraisal and evaluation by agents... it is a clusterfuck going by that route. having a general economy with basic prices, controlled price signal mechanisms with immediate transactions and no global monetary supply should mean that crises are going to be far more "grounded", much closer to the problems of demand (which, in terms of actual consequences, is the far more realistic situation that happens regardless of the causes: people can't attend their material demands whether the cause is oil shortage or lehmann bros failing)
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Aug 6, 2021 16:17
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VostokProgram posted:Yes, but the bank failures were after the market crash. But I think we agree on the overall point: we will probably not see panics emerge in the v3 economy as described so far. It would require a deeper simulation into finance, investment, and speculation. And that may not even be desirable if it costs too many CPU cycles each tick. yeah and it doesn't translate into "fun gameplay" just because, which is the most important part. Even if it is prepared in a game-proper way, I think it would always come back to doing some pseudo-econometrics, which means a whole loving lot of differential equations like bob dobbs is dead said laissez-faire purists may turn their nose but having a global economy that works as-if by planning, but having profit/investment be considered as a factor from the buy/sell orders (which are processed through the director mechanism), should allow for an analogous effect of having a financial market anyway in terms of results, even without in-depth financial dynamics. yeah capitalists here don't trade stocks nor speculate but in the end they earn money if business is good and after all financial capitalism is the ever-increasing abstraction of the real, material, productive economy anyway. The Panic of 1873 has a lot said about money supply being the big thing, but the United States post-Civil War railroad had immense amounts of bad investments. Too many of those were impractical, expensive or even outright not viable, yet the industry was being driven to accommodate that expansion; if you think that the objective was to produce expensive railroad stock instead of building railroads, it should help to understand the problem here this could happen in a game like v3 if capitalists want to build railroads because they are superprofitable, but as they try to move more and more from their investment pool into railroads and there is no supply to make them viable, the more and more they lose money and all associated businesses under them can't make up for the loss, and bam - there's your systemic failure
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Aug 6, 2021 19:46
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VostokProgram posted:Therefore theres no bilateral trade between a producer and consumer that would benefit from a direct rail line, both are actually just "trading" with the market capital. yeah, it's consequence of what we were talking about last diary: everything is managed by a centralized controller that handles the entirety of trade. Maybe later on it could be interesting to have regional controllers for a mod or something (technical constraints aside), but I think infrastructure/market access addresses that pretty well for what the gameplay intends
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Aug 13, 2021 17:49
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Baronjutter posted:That's exciting, specially since it sounds like all those social/economic/government policies are fairly decoupled from each other unlike previous victoria games. I hope we'll have the freedom to do really odd things like a monarchy with worker-owned industries or just any mix of models. good news: it's confirmed but it will probably require some crusader kings-esque hilarious fuckery to do it effectively since many parts are uncoupled but tied to the specific politics of interest groups which have their own tendencies and biases, having Alexander III, tsar of all workers' russias should be doable with some extreme hijinks
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Aug 20, 2021 04:39
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AnEdgelord posted:am I misremembering or did a lot of the insurgent military doctrine used today get developed after this era with Mao and Ho Chi Minh? People's War is firmly in Hearts of Iron territory, yeah VostokProgram posted:Monetary policy DLC confirmed that way lies ruination of both man and cpu lmao proposed project name: "Anward's Folly"
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Aug 27, 2021 11:17
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Lady Radia posted:It's clearly a very well designed game, and it's been a long time since Paradox had one of those, but their recent releases are not ones that have me confident they'll definitely execute on said design. That said, I'm literally the ideal buyer of this so I'm sure I will break. been playing CK3 recently and it has been absolutely fun though, much more than the second one for me at least
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Aug 28, 2021 04:10
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pointsofdata posted:This is something I'd really like to see fleshed out Inna DLC/update. I don't see why you couldn't come up with a confidence/interest rate based mechanic rather than a hard cutoff. mainly because it is much better to have "fun gameplay" as an absolute priority rather than a better simulation (imho) besides, those mechanics are very cost-intensive - checking how interest rates would impact supply of food in a game doesn't seem to be much more different than the econometric exercises in R in university. each additional variable for the sake of a better simulation, without cheating with ceteris paribus ("everything else constant", one of the most beloved provisions of modern economics for that reason), is going to piledrive the cpu lol of course, all that abstractions so far make victoria's economy absolutely different from reality, but in terms of effect it actually may deliver a much better representation of what happens than explicitly going down the route of simulation
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Aug 28, 2021 19:03
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