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MinistryofLard posted:I am so hype for this. The kind of tending your national garden gameplay is exactly what I love about Vicky and what they're describing is making me really optimistic about it. Great podcast but now I really want to know what you were going to say
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May 22, 2021 03:28
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Already confirmed to be 1836 to 1936 It will be 4 ticks per day though
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May 22, 2021 06:25
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:They are right They're also right that I'll still keep playing that garbage
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May 22, 2021 15:06
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VaultAggie posted:Reading all this makes me very interested in this era. Are there any good book recommendations for the politics of the Victorian era about economics/politics? The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx
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May 22, 2021 19:58
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typical anglo lies
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May 23, 2021 20:48
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Randarkman posted:I'm not really a fan of the end date being as late as 1936 to be honest. The world before and after WW1 is just too different and the Victoria games were never good at actually simulating WW1 or its aftermath. nah the long 19th century just isn't complete without a giant hellwar or two to cap it off, I don't care how bad the game is at representing it, it being in is non-negotiable
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May 23, 2021 21:30
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ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:I always enjoyed taking a South American country and turning them into a power - they had so much potential that was ultimately squandered in our own time. an Argentina game where you don't just not industrialize because of a bunch of agriculture barons would be interesting
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May 25, 2021 02:58
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Raenir Salazar posted:Japanese history during the period is a little complex. The Shogunate while powerful, is kinda more like if you had the Holy Roman Empire with the Emperor as a figurehead and Wallenstein controlling the government. IIRC you had dozens if not over a hundred feudal domains that were vassals and the modernist/restoration faction and the shogunate faction in the Boshin War were made up of these feudal domains. The Shogun's influence had waned considerably due to the opening up of Japan to foreigners. The thing is I don't know what you gain by having that level of granularity instead of just have the conservative daimyos and samurai be pops that oppose your attempts at modernization just like what they are doing for the planter aristocracy in the american south. Hell in the US you could probably plausibly argue for it to be broken up into its own historical subnations (states) but I don't think you gain anything from doing that either.
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May 26, 2021 00:16
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I don't understand this argument. Do you also support every US state being separate from the federal government in DC? Because clearly they had a lot of their own power. They STILL have a lot of power to this day as shown in this idiotic patchwork pandemic management we have in the US
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May 26, 2021 01:15
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zhuge liang posted:This comparison to the antebellum US is really nonsensical. Did individual states have their own foreign policy, including armed conflicts with foreign powers? Did they have foreign vassals? no foreign vassals but US states do indeed maintain their own standing armies in the form the each state's National Guard and the territories that were eventually integrated into states maintained militias, those national guard and militia units were a major part of the fight force in the American Indian Wars and fought both with and without federal assistance, especially during the civil war when federal troops were otherwise occupied these units would also be the primary fighting force in the US labor wars in the late 19th century as well
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May 26, 2021 01:30
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Super Jay Mann posted:An underreported part of US history is that until around the postwar period the US Federal Government was actually quite toothless, and in many respects still is down to this day. While it would make for a rather needlessly complicated game state you very well could model US states from the Victorian time period as being their own sovereign nations if you wanted to. which is part of my point, theres really nothing to be gained from a gameplay perspective by having either japan or the us broken up into substates, better to just keep them together and model these things as internal tensions with certain classes of pop violently resisting your efforts to modernize your country which I actually find more interesting because it hooks into the big ticket mechanic that the whole franchise is built on top of
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May 26, 2021 01:53
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Can we take the ww2 war crimes chat to the hoi4 thread or something? We're trying to talk about 19th century war crimes in this thread
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May 26, 2021 15:16
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Speaking of Haiti I wonder how well the game will represent the US's model of "its not a colony I swear" where a country is nominally independent and allegedly has its own foreign policy but the government and private sector are totally captured by US business interests.
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May 26, 2021 17:30
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really queer Christmas posted:Well they plan to let people play as the united states so probably the same way as that. Sure but i more meant to ask if when I do a United Fruit Company to some latin american countries do they just ahistorically turn into European Great Power-style colonies or does something else happen thats more reflective of their actual relationship?
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May 26, 2021 18:17
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A Buttery Pastry posted:What is the meaningful difference between the two, not captured by US economic/political differences relative to for example the UK? The two big differences between US puppet regimes and European Colonial holdings would be: 1. Despite everything the US puppet regimes would have significantly more autonomy (so long as it doesn't interfere with US interests). 2. There is a plausible deniability in the US relationship to its puppet regimes that doesnt exist in the European Colonial context. In game this would probably mean that it would generate less Infamy/Aggressive expansion to establish them. You could even have them engage in proxy wars on your behalf but that might be asking a bit much right off the bat.
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May 26, 2021 19:40
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Randarkman posted:Possibly, it's not really as though the pre-war army ceased existing, it's more that in terms of the size of the armies involved the civil war just blew it out of the water (not to mention the casualties). The only problem I could see with this is that the US in most games it is going to fight the Mexican-American War right before the Civil war and they shouldn't be crippled in a way that's gonna get in the way of fighting that war
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May 27, 2021 00:11
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Baronjutter posted:lollllllllllllll a brain made entirely out of store bought gelatin
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May 27, 2021 23:00
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DrSunshine posted:If they're getting equal show me a single "tankie" complaint
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May 28, 2021 23:10
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from tankies here and fascists on Steam they're probably doing their job correctly.
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I have no special belief that atrocities should be shied away from in this game but I think if you are going to do it you need to keep three things in mind: 1. It has to tie back into the game mechanics, particularly the pop mechanics 2. It should have at least some ring of historical truth to it 3. It should be very clear what the incentive is to doing these things and ideally that incentive should map as closely as possible to what the real life incentive was to do it If I am dealing with a troubling population in the Imperial core I should have the option of exiling them to a prison colony because that was an option that existed for the Great Powers and it was used frequently. By the same token if a population is troubling me in a colony I should have the option of enacting brutal repression against that population up to and including genocide, because that is an option that existed for the Great Powers, it was used frequently and to not include it is straight up lying about what colonialism actually was but you also need to be clear that when you are doing that you are doing a genocide.
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May 30, 2021 01:27
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I do want economic crashes to be possible though especially because of how important the Long Depression and Great Depression are in US history during this era
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Jun 2, 2021 04:05
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Historically a lot of these crises were accompanied by massive strike waves so if the game can model strikes then thats certainly something more than your budget going in the red
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Jun 2, 2021 04:10
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Yeah it should be noted that, while the euros were 100% the bad guys and ultimately responsible for everything bad that happened, the Qing empire was also just very badly run. Thats part of the reason poo poo like the Taipei rebellion and other uprisings kept happening in the first place.
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Jun 2, 2021 19:37
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tbh I can't think of a "secret" alliance between states that remained secret very long at any point in history, its not something worth modeling at all edit: also I can't think of a single great power that did isolationism in this period, if you were doing isolationism you weren't a great power and were pretty quickly put on the chopping block as another territory to carve colonial holdings out of
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Jun 5, 2021 01:17
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Crazycryodude posted:The Triple Alliance and Ottoman-German alliance (the one that brought them both in against Russia) are literally taught as the classic example of the secret alliance system but go off If its so secret why the gently caress were the Russians and French 100% aware of it
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Jun 5, 2021 01:23
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Also weren't the most consequential secret treaties the ones that laid down how the spoils would be split AFTER the war like the Sykes-Picot agreement? That just seems like promising your allies certain territories out of a war which definitely should be something you can do. I do think there is some value in being able to intervene in ongoing wars though especially if you're a great power, that is how the US got into WW1 and the Mexican-American war after all
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Jun 5, 2021 01:39
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Yeah avoiding the Civil War should be an appropriately arduous undertaking that may not even be worth it compared to just ripping off the bandaid and going through with the war but it should be an option on the table so long as it has a baseline historical plausibility to it.
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Jun 8, 2021 04:39
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quote:To finish up this dev diary I just want to mention that building up your country is meant to be more of a hands-on experience in Victoria 3, as this is absolutely core to the society-building aspect of the game and forms a major part of the game’s core loop. This naturally also means that we need to give the player the necessary tools to manage their buildings in a large empire, which may involve some form of autonomous building construction, though we haven’t yet nailed down exactly what form that would take (and whether it will involve decision making on the part of the investor class). Ultimately though, we want the player, not the AI to be the one primarily in charge of the development of their own country. I'm a little nervous about this, capitalist pops absolutely should be financing and ordering the construction of some factories and infrastructure since that's exactly what happened in real life, I could buy maybe "steering" them a little bit with government contracts and subsidies but unless you're running a command economy the private sector absolutely should be building stuff in the background with or without your input. Hell though I don't know the exact details of how it would work in the game it would make sense for anarchist societies to have infrastructure and building decisions done by local powers rather than dictates from the extremely weak and/or non-existent central government as well.
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Jun 10, 2021 23:02
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Hellioning posted:It's realistic that capitalist pops or local communes might control more infrastructure or buildings than the local government, but in practical terms it means that the player's primary form of interacting with something that is 'absolutely core' and 'a major part of the game's core loop' is staring at the screen and hoping the AI doesn't screw you over. But see thats not realistic either, states weren't just helpless as capitalists kept building failed clipper factories regardless of how capitalist they were. Things like subsidies to encourage the production of certain goods as well as government contracts for private companies to build infrastructure are real things that are used to this day and could easily appear in this game, and its not like capitalist states never nationalized anything ever. I should be able to build factories and infrastructure as the state but so long as I'm not a command economy the private sector should be ticking away in the background doing its thing, but if a factory or piece of infrastructure is in the way or inconvenient I should be able to purchase it and demolish it via eminent domain (another good tool to potentially add) or nationalize it and demolish it.
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Jun 10, 2021 23:15
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean it sounds like your just advocating the same system but with more period accurate window dressing Hellioning posted:Yeah, that just sounds like the current system with extra steps. Clearly I'm not articulating myself clearly enough if this is the conclusion you came to. Let me try this again: There is no reason to stop pops from constructing buildings on their own, what you need is more ways to interact with the pops doing the construction and better logic for how those pops select their construction. For one thing I think that having a certain percentage of the Capitalist pops "chase" higher value trade goods by building more production for the specific trade good they are targeting would be a good thing and would do two things. The first thing it would do is make it so speculative bubbles can happen due to overproduction of the resource in question, the second thing that it would do is give the player a way to "steer" these pops via a carrot i.e. subsidies. Subsidies would theoretically allow you to use government funds to encourage the production of specific resources, as in real life, you would have a monthly payout to capitalist pops that own factories that produce the good you are subsidizing which would be factored into their determinations for which trade goods they target. I don't think that this should replace the system as described in the dev diary, but I envision this as something that exists in addition to it. I'm no programmer and I'm fully prepared for Wiz to come in here and tell me this would be a nightmare to program and its not worth it but I wanted to at least try to articulate what I was saying better than I did. Party In My Diapee posted:I vote for the most important things for a great game to be state diplomacy, conflict and imperialism, as well as internal and global politics and ideology connected to pops. Trains and buildings i'm not so worried about. I highly disagree, the economic simulation is by far the most important element and its not particularly close, everything should be downstream from it and judging by the dev diaries so far it is
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Jun 11, 2021 00:06
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Poil posted:Is that canon? Depends on who you ask
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Jun 11, 2021 19:31
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trapped mouse posted:Not even sure if the Great Depression is even worth including since it historically started with the stock market crash of 1929, seven years before the end date. I don't think the dev team is nihilistic enough to cripple your country's economy right by the end after you've built it up all game for no real reason. And small-to-major depressions may happen naturally as a process of the game. I would buy that if the Great Depression was the only major economic crash of this era but you also have the Long Depression (which was called the Great Depression until the one we call the Great Depression happened) as well as a hundred other smaller economic crashes.
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Aug 5, 2021 23:51
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am I misremembering or did a lot of the insurgent military doctrine used today get developed after this era with Mao and Ho Chi Minh?
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Aug 27, 2021 02:14
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Im interested to see how they portray the differences between New World Slavery and Ottoman Slavery.
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Sep 15, 2021 15:11
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You should be able to build the aristocratic slave society the southern planters always wished for but it should utterly cripple your economy and doom you to lag behind the Industrial Empires to the point that they start eyeing you up as somewhere to carve colonial holdings out of.
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Sep 16, 2021 03:10
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Beefeater1980 posted:I always thought reconstruction was trying to do that (and failing). It would've gone a hell of a lot better if Andrew Johnson wasnt an absolute moron who thought pardoning the rebels and recognizing the Confederate state governments as the legitimate state governments was a good idea. After that it was extremely hard for the congressional Republicans to undo the damage.
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Sep 17, 2021 04:20
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LonsomeSon posted:It turns out that when you fight a civil war and then just let the political blocs of the rebel faction just move back into power, you could wind up with Jim Crow and sharecropping It was both, Johnson thought he could create a third party that he could ride to his next term via allying with the southern planters and appealing to the poor southern whites but the planters just thanked him for all his help and promptly left him out to dry.
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Sep 17, 2021 05:11
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There were some anti-capitalist southern intellectuals whose anti-capitalism was born out of a reactionary tendency rather than a socialist one. They argued that slavery was more humane than capitalism because it guaranteed food and shelter to slaves where as capitalism had no such guarantee for wage laborers. It wasnt especially popular because it undercut a lot of other southern arguments about how they would eventually transition out of slavery when they were good and ready but its not hard to imagine an ascendant confederacy coming around on it and taking that logic to its conclusion and enslaving poor whites under the guise of welfare.
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Sep 17, 2021 15:11
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Davincie posted:check out george fitzhugh Thats who I was thinking of I just couldn't remember the name
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Sep 17, 2021 21:58
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Suddenly curious how the game is gonna handle internal US migrations like the Mormons heading to Missouri and then Utah.
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Sep 30, 2021 00:42
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guidoanselmi posted:I'm sure the Heavenly Kingdom will show up. Yeah if the Taipei rebellion isnt in then what are we even doing here?
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Sep 30, 2021 18:26
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