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Koskun posted:4 - As far as I know, with the latest version of 11 you cannot. At a minimum you have to use a PIN. 4 digits, it doesn't make you change it after xx time. I don't think you can use something like 1111, or a sequence though. E: like for local accounts, like the one created by Rufus
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Apr 11, 2024 14:17
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https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2023/01/17/no-start-menu-for-you/
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Apr 11, 2024 14:19
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Klyith posted:No, plenty of people are negative about 11 ITT. The Win10 thread is locked (because 10 is EOL). Windows 10 was supposed to get nothing but security updates since the 22H2 release, but they've rowed back a bit on this, for example pushing Copilot to Windows 10 machines. I can't really imagine they'll not extend Windows 10 security updates past its current End of Life date à la Windows 7. StatCounter lists Windows 10 usage worldwide at 69.04%, Windows 11 at 26.72% and, surprisingly, Windows 7 at 3.04%, with the remainder covered by Windows 8 and Windows XP. That XP is in use more than the original 8 release is hilarious. Anyway, let's be generous and say that Windows 11 will have 50% usage by the middle of next year. That leaves half of all Windows machines without security updates, which is just waiting on a worm to destroy them. I can't see Microsoft maintaining the EoL date.
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Apr 11, 2024 14:32
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WattsvilleBlues posted:Windows 10 was supposed to get nothing but security updates since the 22H2 release, but they've rowed back a bit on this, for example pushing Copilot to Windows 10 machines. They could if they force the update to 11. Will that make them friends? No. But they can easily fall back on "We've told you this date for years, and now we're doing something about it since you won't". Can you defer MacOS updates? I know it won't update past a certain point if the system is "too old" or the like, however it does pretty much force updates on the user right? As to that Win7 percentage, I wonder how many of those are POS system or ATM's?
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Apr 11, 2024 14:43
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Koskun posted:... That and school computer labs in poorer areas, or internet cafes in the developing world.
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Apr 11, 2024 14:47
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Forcing the update to 11 won't do a whole lot unless they also drop the secure boot requirement and relax their requirements on supported CPU lines. This isn't 2009 anymore where machines a decade old are hopelessly out of date and can be ignored; there are a lot of decade-old machines out there today that run just fine and nobody has any intention of upgrading and will continue to run Windows 10 because they just can't run Windows 11 with its current minimum requirements.
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Apr 11, 2024 14:49
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biznatchio posted:Forcing the update to 11 won't do a whole lot unless they also drop the secure boot requirement and relax their requirements on supported CPU lines. This isn't 2009 anymore where machines a decade old are hopelessly out of date and can be ignored; there are a lot of decade-old machines out there today that run just fine and nobody has any intention of upgrading and will continue to run Windows 10 because they just can't run Windows 11 with its current minimum requirements. This. I don't know anything about the ultimate actual need for a Trusted Platform Module or how much it impacts the operating system's security, and the same goes for me on the CPU front, but if those requirements don't change it will be a long time before Windows 11 reaches 50%, which it probably won't before Windows 12 is released. I'm currently running Windows 10 on a circa 2013 Toshiba laptop. It originally released with Windows 7, 4GB RAM, a dual core Intel i3 CPU (Ivy Bridge, with hyperthreading), and a 500GB hard drive. I upgraded the RAM to 16GB and threw in a 240GB SSD, and the machine runs quite nicely. Obviously I'm not going to be doing anything but general web surfing and Office type stuff, but as biznatchio says, compare this to a laptop released a decade before that laptop. A laptop from 2003 would have a single core processor, maybe a 20GB hard drive and 256MB of RAM. That machine isn't running Windows 7 at anywhere near a tolerable level, even if some of the components are upgraded. Multicore processors, SSDs and oodles of RAM have meant we've picked all the low hanging fruit, and it's diminishing returns now.
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Apr 11, 2024 15:08
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Microsoft seemingly knows that some people won’t be able to upgrade and they are graciously going to let customers pay a yearly fee to keep using Windows 10 https://www.theverge.com/2023/12/5/23988896/microsoft-windows-10-extended-security-updates-consumers-paid
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Apr 11, 2024 15:16
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Why yes let's wait to upload crash reports over the potentially unreliable network before running the poo poo the user wants to do right now Here's how shocked I am that it's the phone-home telemetry bs causing it.
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Apr 11, 2024 15:18
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Yeah, I can understand why they wanted to introduce a bunch of always-on security features and not have carve-outs for machines which don't support them. I can also understand that they don't want to commit to writing patches to accommodate >10 years old hardware with this new OS for the foreseeable future. As we've seen from Windows 11 now refusing to install on Core 2 machines because they don't have the POPCNT command, this stuff can matter and I don't think that Microsoft should have to deal with it forever. All that said, a 10 year old computer - desktop, especially - is still fine for a lot of tasks. My cousin still plays games on an LGA1366 system that I originally built in 2008. Hell, now that it has an RX 6600 it runs BG3 well enough for him to be happy with it. While the end is near for that particular platform with more games requiring AVX these days, I still don't see myself just throwing it away once he upgrades. I still run a Skylake laptop as a TV computer, a Sandy Bridge desktop for ripping/re-encoding optical discs, and a Broadwell tablet as a supplementary monitor to my main desktop. While I have the wherewithal to put Linux on them (or install 11 with Rufus, assuming it keeps working), a lot of people are just going to either junk PCs that old or leave them running 10 without updates. It would be nice if MS had a way to extend the long-tail updates that we know they're producing anyway to personal systems which are unable to ever upgrade to 11 legitimately. Last Chance posted:Microsoft seemingly knows that some people won’t be able to upgrade and they are graciously going to let customers pay a yearly fee to keep using Windows 10 Yeah, like... I get this for organizations, if you're running some industrial device or data logger which is too expensive to update to a new controller then it might well make perfect sense to just pay a few hundred more to keep patching 10 instead. When it comes to individuals, I can't see many people saying "I could buy a new computer with Windows 11 for a few hundred bucks, but instead I'll pay a few hundred bucks to keep getting patches on this one instead." They'll just keep running 10 unpatched like they did with XP.
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Apr 11, 2024 15:25
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Those original 2013 laptop specs are still something that would be considered to be a useable entry-level machine today. It's absolute insanity for Microsoft to continue to put a "recent hardware only" bar on Windows 11 and dropping support for everything older because the personal computer space just doesn't work like that anymore. The path forward Windows needs to be taking (and will probably pivot to sooner or later once they realize they've got a mess on their hands with lots of Windows 10 machines that can't upgrade to Windows 11 or 12 that they're going to be held responsible for in the public square if they stop providing security updates to) is to have a ongoing, supported core Windows that can run on basically anything Windows 10 can run on today and whose minimum requirements rise very slowly over progressive releases if at all ever so as to ensure they can run on 95% of the PCs actually being used out in the wild, and then have progressive feature enhancement editions that can optionally be stacked on top of it to unlock more capabilities for more capable hardware. And then individual software vendors can choose where on the ladder they want to/need to be able to run as a minimum requirement. Something like a Cyberpunk 2077 might say "Windows 13 Super Mega Edition required" because they need some of the advanced APIs only available in the top-level edition and/or they're not likely to even be able to run on old hardware anyway; while Chrome might say "Windows 13 Core Edition capable" because they want everyone in the world using Chrome no matter what. The days of "the base OS needs more and more every release" are done. The time to transition to sustained baseline requirements is here.
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Apr 11, 2024 15:30
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When Windows 8 expired, there were really effective, ie. super intrusive pop-up screens telling you about the danger. It's certainly within their power to make running 10 unpatched unbearable.
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Apr 11, 2024 15:40
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Koskun posted:Can you defer MacOS updates? I know it won't update past a certain point if the system is "too old" or the like, however it does pretty much force updates on the user right? No, macOS doesn’t force updates. I used and supported Macs in a professional setting for years and we always had to keep our workstations a version or two behind due to a lovely software vendor that was slow to support new releases of macOS.
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Apr 11, 2024 16:26
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Apple sort of force updates by their machines not working with an OS older than the one they shipped with. I remember reading the riot act to a photo studio years ago who wanted to try and freeze their 10.6 / Mac Pro towers / Xsan setup in time, suggesting that having to scour eBay for computers old enough to work with that setup was not a good use of time.
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Apr 11, 2024 16:30
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Thank you and a big Very Appreciative for your Time to the many goons who replied to my post about win10/11. It sounds like win11 is the right move, I'll just have to adapt to the growing pains. I suppose in a hosed up way this is beneficial to me as a current win10 guy as I'll get to interact with it before it ends up on my machine. Strangely, windows has decided my pc is Not Windows 11 Ready, it's a 9900k/3090 fully watercooled machine so I guess I need to get the liquid nitrogen going so my pc can handle the stress of win11.
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Apr 11, 2024 16:30
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biznatchio posted:Forcing the update to 11 won't do a whole lot unless they also drop the secure boot requirement and relax their requirements on supported CPU lines. This isn't 2009 anymore where machines a decade old are hopelessly out of date and can be ignored; there are a lot of decade-old machines out there today that run just fine and nobody has any intention of upgrading and will continue to run Windows 10 because they just can't run Windows 11 with its current minimum requirements. Officially atm, 8th gen Intel, or Ryzen AM4 are the minimum requirements for Win11. Those came out in 2017 and 2016. So a ten year old computer is already getting there with that hardware. They have made some exceptions to the 8th gen rule however. I have a first gen Surface Pro with a 3rd gen i3 in it, and it took Win11 without any issues or modification to the installer. Weirdly, I got an XPS 13 with a 7th gen i7 recently, and it also took Win11 with no modification. Microsoft can modify the requirements, so maybe once that hard '25 date gets closer they will. I want to note, those two computers I mentioned that I got for my father and aunt, one was $150, the other was $110. There's an electronic recycling company about an hours drive from me. They always have business level desktops and laptops for sale at around those prices (higher for newer, but nothing much over 200 bucks). No, tossing 150 bucks for a "new" computer isn't something everyone can do, I don't want it to be seen that I'm trying to be flippant about that. And maybe that store is an oddity in their prices compared to elsewhere in the US or World. But getting something that officially takes Win11, if those yearly costs for continued support of Win10 are anywhere 100 a year, wouldn't be much of an ask at all. wash bucket posted:No, macOS doesn’t force updates. I used and supported Macs in a professional setting for years and we always had to keep our workstations a version or two behind due to a lovely software vendor that was slow to support new releases of macOS. VelociBacon posted:Strangely, windows has decided my pc is Not Windows 11 Ready, it's a 9900k/3090 fully watercooled machine There have been people here who have said they weren't able to get a certain update, but the one after they could. It might be that hang up? It can get fussy, with no rhyme or reason at times why it says you can't install this specific version of Win11 but can the previous/next one. Koskun fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 16:37
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WattsvilleBlues posted:This. I don't know anything about the ultimate actual need for a Trusted Platform Module or how much it impacts the operating system's security, and the same goes for me on the CPU front For the record, MS eventually came clean: TPM is used only for bitlocker and windows hello. Which are the same things that used it in win10. It's a pretty specious requirement. The CPU thing is mostly about a specific hardware-assist feature for virtual machines, which is very useful because the OS can use VM tech for security. If you don't have this feature it can result in noticeable performance loss in some cases. OTOH most average-user cases aren't that bad; no worse than the performance loss from stuff like the Spectre mitigations on older intel CPUs. VelociBacon posted:Strangely, windows has decided my pc is Not Windows 11 Ready, it's a 9900k/3090 fully watercooled machine so I guess I need to get the liquid nitrogen going so my pc can handle the stress of win11. This is probably because you need to turn on the integrated TPM (called "PTT" on intel) and/or Secure Boot in your bios.
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Apr 11, 2024 16:47
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I haven’t experienced any of the major problems with win11 but I resisted mightily at first because of the taskbar and start menu issues. I was big irritated that they removed such a trivial functionality and my use case hated the taskbar at the bottom, I like it at the top and hide-able. I still don’t understand why they wouldn’t let their users just choose that. Anyways once I found explorer patcher it was less of an issue but it’s still hugely irritating to have to depend on 3rd party software like that. As newer computers worked their way into my setup I’d just accept and adjust to the win11 machines while maintaining win10 on my main driver. Eventually I woke up one day and after a system update it was just windows 11. It warned me about it for months but I just said I didn’t want the update and one day it just…. Chose to update to 11 for me. A month or so back I noticed other people reporting this happening to them at the same time. I think eventually this will be how it is for most win10 holdouts like I was. You’ll wake up one day and they just updated it for you. As a courtesy.
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Apr 11, 2024 16:49
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It would be hilarious to see them turn back on their TPM and CPU requirements like that and just roll out the update to everyone, but I think it's unlikely. This will either be another XP/Vista situation, but with less actual justification for the hardware requirements, or they'll be racing to roll out Windows 12, now with legacy support.
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Apr 11, 2024 16:53
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the TPM requirement has the knock-on effect that it enables software to rely on it for attestation riots anti-cheat won't run on win11 if you force it to install without a TPM, and i wouldn't be surprised if winevines strictest tier starts requiring a TPM at some point
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Apr 11, 2024 16:58
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So much eWaste
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Apr 11, 2024 17:02
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quick win 11 question. In task manager, you can right click on an app and put it in "Efficiency mode" which microsoft describes as: quote:Task Manager Efficiency mode is a new feature that gives you options to ensure certain running processes won’t stress the CPU out, leading to faster foreground responsiveness and better energy efficiency. It also helps you to identify apps that are already running in Efficiency mode and are good citizens of the OS. The goal is to give power users control of process resource consumption and contribute to Microsoft’s Sustainable Software initiative. At a high level, the Task Manager Efficiency mode limits process resource usage by reducing the process priority and ensuring it runs efficiently on the CPU by leveraging EcoQoS. I have a 12th gen intel i7 with 8 efficiency cores. If I put an app in Efficiency mode, does that regulate the task to the efficiency cores? Can I make sure an app always runs in efficiency mode? How do I tell what processes are running on the efficiency cores? Theoretically I want to make sure apps I keep running in the background use the efficiency cores rather than the main cores so those are free for real tasks like getting destroyed in Tekken. I know windows 11 is supposed to handle that stuff automagically but I don't really trust like that.
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Apr 11, 2024 17:38
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repiv posted:the TPM requirement has the knock-on effect that it enables software to rely on it for attestation I've seen some weird TPM related errors with corporate M365 sign ins.
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Apr 11, 2024 17:46
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HKR posted:quick win 11 question. In task manager, you can right click on an app and put it in "Efficiency mode" which microsoft describes as: There are tools you can use to create profiles that manually assign specific apps to specific hardware threads. In the hierarchy of a CPU with P cores and E cores, the P cores are listed first, and with hyperthreading are effectively doubled in number, so a CPU with 6 P cores and 8 E cores would essentially be: CPU0-CPU11: P cores CPU12-CPU19: E cores So you’d just need to download one of those tools, then pin according to that table, adjusted for the specific CPU you’re using. In the case of a cheaper mobile CPU with 2 P cores and 4 E cores, it’d be: CPU0-CPU3: P cores CPU4-CPU7: E cores Hasturtium fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 17:58
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Koskun posted:Can you defer MacOS updates? I know it won't update past a certain point if the system is "too old" or the like, however it does pretty much force updates on the user right? You can. Indefinitely. It can get annoying but it won’t force you.
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Apr 11, 2024 18:07
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That's Win10, but still pretty disgusting.
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Apr 11, 2024 22:47
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All of the individual parts of that chain of disaster make sense in isolation, they just add up to a whole that's pants-on-head stupid.
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Apr 11, 2024 22:53
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Koskun posted:Officially atm, 8th gen Intel, or Ryzen AM4 are the minimum requirements for Win11. Those came out in 2017 and 2016. So a ten year old computer is already getting there with that hardware. First gen Ryzen is below the minimum requirement for windows 11 because it lacks that cpu virtualization thingy I believe.
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Apr 12, 2024 03:07
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chocolateTHUNDER posted:First gen Ryzen is below the minimum requirement for windows 11 because it lacks that cpu virtualization thingy I believe. I had a first gen Ryzen 1600 that took Win11 just fine. I only had to turn on Secure Boot in the bios.
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Apr 12, 2024 03:22
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Right, the 1st gen Ryzens aren't officially supported in Windows 11. That doesn't mean you can't run it - I have a Broadwell tablet sitting in front of me which is running 11 just fine, and that's a couple generations prior to official support. It will probably keep working just fine, but if 25H2 or whatever just refuses to install then Microsoft is going to shrug and say "yeah, what did you expect" - that's the chance you take.
Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 03:38
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Right, my point is that if you have a first gen Ryzen Microsoft will tell you via Windows Update that it is not supported and you can’t update it from directly from them. Of course you can just force it via ISO or clean install, but that’s not really what I was pointing out. Maybe I should have been more clear.
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Apr 12, 2024 04:08
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What the gently caress is this thing in Win11 where it doesn't remember mute status per audio device anymore? Is there a way to change it back to the sensible Win10 mechanism?
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Apr 12, 2024 08:29
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It does I'm using both w10 and w11 with the same devices and it works the same. But bluetooth devices tend to mess with this because they can control os volume and my experience with various bluetooth devices is weird and magical in annoying ways.
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Apr 12, 2024 09:31
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Yeah I gotta say the combination of jabra headsets with with Bluetooth and Teams being fucky with devices in general has made the headset experience a nightmare for me at work.
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Apr 12, 2024 09:48
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Bluetooth was invented because of humankind's arrogance and sin. We live in a fallen world and the proof is the absolutely garbage sound quality coming out of exactly one ear.
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Apr 12, 2024 09:49
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Bluetooth headsets will use the headset profile when connected directly to a PC, they will use an actually good profile (possibly proprietary) when connecting to the Bluetooth dongle they came with which allows for things like "audio quality that isn't poo poo" and "playing sound from two sources at the same time".
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Apr 12, 2024 10:38
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Oh yeah that's another thing. BT Headsets with a microphone will basically report two devices to windows: Headphones - High quality audio with a slight latency. No mic. Receive only. Headset - lovely low quality, both send and receive w/ mic, low latency. I'm not sure if it isn't actually three with the mic. Anyway I refuse to understand anything about bluetooth standards because when I actually read into what's going on my memory kinda wiped itself to preserve my sanity.
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Apr 12, 2024 11:10
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FWIW macOS seems to do the same thing with BT headphones. I tend to use my MacBook's microphone so I can listen to music while I'm working without it sounding terrible.
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Apr 12, 2024 11:28
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Insurrectionist posted:Teams being fucky That's it's normal state, so I'd bet on that being the culprit.
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Apr 12, 2024 11:59
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AlexDeGruven posted:That's it's normal state, so I'd bet on that being the culprit. Oh, a lot of it is Teams. But some of it is bluetooth-related caused by either W11 or (more likely) the Jabra Software because it keeps discovering and adding new instances of the same headset (thought at first it was my colleagues and reduced the range, but nope!) and forcing a tedious game of either guessing which entry is the one it wants me to use now, or manually removing existing instances from the list and then rediscovering. Reinstalling helps for a while though. E: the issue with 2 profiles for BT headsets which are good/bad is annoying on Teams as it often picks the bad one IME Insurrectionist fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 13:32
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