|
JustJeff88 posted:I won't argue with this, but does anyone know a good editor for 3? Reading this is making me want to break out my old French from ~94. I agree that it's easy to overlevel and trivialise the game, I just want to level a single-class cleric and mage up enough to cast all of the spells. I'm using ASE3, an automapper with a savegame editor built in. It allows you to just put somebody up to level 20 right away.
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2022 03:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 05:08 |
|
|
When the levels get past say 10 or 11, the fact that rare and fantastical super-powered monsters are encountered en masse also makes it crazy too. For an actual D&D campaign it would be easier to adapt to more 'realistic' campaigns, say fighting big hordes, armies, or high-level enemy characters. In the EOB format, their scope for a huge fight is limited by the nature of the game and they have to resort to powerful single monsters.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2022 05:36
|
|
|
Alpha3KV posted:I'm using ASE3, an automapper with a savegame editor built in. It allows you to just put somebody up to level 20 right away. I knew about ASE (all of them), but I did not know that it had an editor. That's handy. Does it allow ignoring those stupid level limits, like the Gold Box Companion?
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2022 06:45
|
|
|
JustJeff88 posted:I actually like the dual-classing of non-humans in 2e. It made multi-classes viable, interesting and competitive. Being a 5/5 fighter mage in 3e/3.5e just meant that you were poo poo at everything, but that version was all about overpowered kits that required the player to perfectly plan everything from level 0. 2e dual-classing is dogshit, sorry to break it to you, but it's a terrible mechanic and should be abolished. See, the thing is that to make dual-classing useful, you need to get to a decent level in the first class before switching away from it(permanently). But at this point, you start over as the second class with zero access to the first class' skills until the second class is higher level. Which means that you're suddenly, say, a 1st-level Fighter or Mage while everyone else is dealing with stuff scaled for their 5th-level powers. Multi-classing should just be allowed for humans, simple. As much as I love it as the Chosen Edition, things that should be taken out back and be given a shotgun blast ot the head: Dual-classic Racial level limits Percentile strength Please just make everything loving roll-over, my players can never keep track of which is which because they haven't dealt with this system for 20+ years. dervinosdoom posted:I would remove the level caps, also no level drain. That's it. Level-drain, though, is actually a very important mechanic. See, any GM can, with a wave of his hand, refuse to use level-draining monsters or remove their level-draining abilities. The important thing about this is that you know any GM who does not do this should be kicked repeatedly in the balls and you should leave their game. Thus, it serves an important warning purpose before you get to the next room and you have to deal with what their fetish is.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2022 10:22
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:2e dual-classing is dogshit, sorry to break it to you, but it's a terrible mechanic and should be abolished. I meant multi-classing of non-humans. What an unfortunate typo that provoked so much venom. I actually agree that dual-classing was an awful system. Any system that encourages being utterly useless for a time for a big payoff later is inherently bad. The logarithmic nature of levelling in 2e meant that a 6/6 thief/mage could be competitive with a level 8 thief or a level 8 mage for the same amount of experience. Mind you, at very high levels the system broke down a bit, but at very high levels it mattered far less. Not much difference mage-wise between a level 26 mage and an 18/18 mage/priest. I also agree that racial caps, % strength, and level drain are all putrid. The latter as a temporary debuff that could prove fatal eventually was a good idea in theory, but it was so hard to track. It's one of those mechanics that works well in computer games, though, because it can be automated.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2022 15:27
|
|
|
Level drain is the reason to get Death Ward (and it’s Order of the Stick improvement Masked Debt Gourd) put on your party. This spell doesn’t exist in core 2nd Edition sadly.
achtungnight fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Apr 2, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2022 15:32
|
|
|
3e's concept of "negative levels" worked much better--as long as you get treatment (and any GM who doesn't throw in a scroll of Restoration is a titanic dick) there's no actual experience adjustment, just a debuff for a while.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2022 15:47
|
|
|
the holy poopacy posted:3e's concept of "negative levels" worked much better--as long as you get treatment (and any GM who doesn't throw in a scroll of Restoration is a titanic dick) there's no actual experience adjustment, just a debuff for a while. Yeah, I think 3e has the best balance between "a status effect that you are genuinely afraid of" and "not something that permanently erases potentially months worth of play sessions". Level drains are the Rust Monster problem, where the goal is to make otherwise minor threats scary by giving them the potential to cause damage that lasts beyond the scope of a single encounter, but the problem is that the way it happens completely fucks up the intended power curve of the game. Negative levels allow them to keep that general sense of danger while also allowing them to return to exactly where they were in the power curve without having to just do it all over again.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 00:24
|
|
|
Alpha, are you planning to eventually replace all of the starting characters with the 6 NPCs in the game? I looked over the roster, and it's a perfectly balanced group: a paladin, a ranger, a single-class mage, a single-class cleric, a multi-class mage/cleric and a multi-class fighter/thief.. I'm sure that that incredible balance is not at all coincidental.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 01:18
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:2e dual-classing is dogshit, sorry to break it to you, but it's a terrible mechanic and should be abolished. See, the thing is that to make dual-classing useful, you need to get to a decent level in the first class before switching away from it(permanently). But at this point, you start over as the second class with zero access to the first class' skills until the second class is higher level. Which means that you're suddenly, say, a 1st-level Fighter or Mage while everyone else is dealing with stuff scaled for their 5th-level powers. You say all this, but it does allow for some hilarious power-gaming. Why yes, my druid does have nine levels of fighter underneath, nice to clobber you over the head while you flail against my spells.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 03:36
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:You say all this, but it does allow for some hilarious power-gaming. Why yes, my druid does have nine levels of fighter underneath, nice to clobber you over the head while you flail against my spells. At that point you're a level 9 Fighter, level 9 Druid, though. Meanwhile, the guy who rolled a Fighter/Druid is Level 9/9 as well and has been able to use both classes throughout the entire game, while you've spent half the game as either a Fighter OR a Druid. It can produce some decent end results, but the issue is that drop where you're suddenly a level 1 Druid instead of a level 9 Fighter, on a long journey up to replacing instead with and.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 09:38
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:At that point you're a level 9 Fighter, level 9 Druid, though. Well, sure, but the DM can give your level 1 druid nine hours of I suppose D&D should be about the friends you meet along the way, though, and not having silly power-fantasies. Sorry.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 10:47
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Well, sure, but the DM can give your level 1 druid nine hours of I mean yes, the GM can also say you start at level 20, or that you're given a free giant crab mount called Mr. Ceetmarp. That's not so much the issue. It's also fine if, say, everyone dual-classes at level 9. Otherwise the problem is that four out of five party members are at 9th-level power, while one of them has been reset back to 1st-level power, and how the hell do you provide mechanics-using encounters where Mr. 1st Level can contribute meaningfully and the rest of the party don't just steamroll everything?
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 10:50
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:I mean yes, the GM can also say you start at level 20, or that you're given a free giant crab mount called Mr. Ceetmarp. I feel as we've hit a nerve of game-balancing altogether. Sleep is a monstrously good spell when your party is level 3-ish and all those knobgoblins (no racism) just fall over, but it's useless when your party is fighting anything with sufficient HD. And if you're a level 9 fighter, where are you going with your life, exactly? You get to punch things slightly harder every 2 levels? Okay, hoss. Punching people in the face really hard can make for meaningful scenes, we all like mister Schwarzenegger, but isn't the end-game of any D&D, eh, game, that spell-casters wind up using nukes on the playing field?
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 11:14
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:I feel as we've hit a nerve of game-balancing altogether. Sleep is a monstrously good spell when your party is level 3-ish and all those knobgoblins (no racism) just fall over, but it's useless when your party is fighting anything with sufficient HD. And if you're a level 9 fighter, where are you going with your life, exactly? You get to punch things slightly harder every 2 levels? Okay, hoss. Punching people in the face really hard can make for meaningful scenes, we all like mister Schwarzenegger, but isn't the end-game of any D&D, eh, game, that spell-casters wind up using nukes on the playing field? Not in 2nd ed. Firstly, any mage that takes ANY HIT, even 1 HP, loses the spell they're prepping for that round(declared at start of round, after which initiative is randomized), so they need Fighters as linebackers if nothing else. Secondly, at higher levels, saving throws improve... but unlike 3.x, 4e and 5e, higher level casters are not better at breaking through saving throws, so there's a mid-level point where spells can sweep the field, but after that tougher enemies start being increasingly very unlikely to be affected by spells. Meanwhile, Thac0 keeps improving, while AC has a soft cap that's very rarely broken, meaning Fighters get more and more reliably good at just cuisinarting their way through enemies. So in 2e, unironically, Fighters are far more likely to be an immense threat at high levels than mages are, and at those high levels the best use of a mage's casting turns are liable to be buffing up the Fighter with Haste, Enlarge, etc. to allow him to just dumpster entire legions of enemies in a round. Plus, at 9+ level, Fighters are no longer just Fighters, they're Lords. Meaning that if they build themselves a fort of some sort, they attract bodies of fighting men, including lieutenants with class levels. Yeah, a high-level Fighter can still "just punch" enemies... or he can order his fighting men to set up a ballista volley for taking down the Crab Dragon Lord's mount, or just bring his lieutenants to provide covering fire and tackle mooks while he goes hard. And that's not even counting the optional rules where your Fighter can become something even more powerful... a wrestler. No I poo poo you not, barring getting some super-busted magic weapons, one of the most extremely broken options for a Fighter when rolling with the optional rules is to specialize in unarmed combat, drop dragons and lich lords into headlocks, slam them into walls, suplex them into their allies, etc.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 11:35
|
|
|
OK, not to derail this thread even further with edition chat, but you HAVE GOT to elaborate on that one!
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 11:38
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:Not in 2nd ed. Isn't a common criticism of 2nd ed that fighters, while as you say gain slaves and powerful suplexes, sort of fizzle out by the late-game, whereas mages and druids can cast spells with no saving throws allowed that either stun or otherwise disable the THAC0-monsters? Obviously one'd try to disable the mages first, but that's why they get spells that make them suplex-proof, right?
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 11:46
|
|
|
inscrutable horse posted:OK, not to derail this thread even further with edition chat, but you HAVE GOT to elaborate on that one! I'm imagining the classic D&D arcade game, Shadow Over Mystara, except the fighter is replaced by Zangief.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 11:59
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Isn't a common criticism of 2nd ed that fighters, while as you say gain slaves and powerful suplexes, sort of fizzle out by the late-game, whereas mages and druids can cast spells with no saving throws allowed that either stun or otherwise disable the THAC0-monsters? Obviously one'd try to disable the mages first, but that's why they get spells that make them suplex-proof, right? It is a criticism and it is not entirely wrong... if the fighter lets the mage get a spell off! Now, many spells are quite fast, but a specialized unarmed fighter is going to go faster, in general, than just about any spell worth casting to STOP that fighter from breaking your fingers and shoving your head into the wall. Weapon/action speed is pretty important, and being able to grab and hold some noodly wizard is something any fighter is going to be able to do! It becomes a matter of who acts first at that point, and even then, spells can be broken or bypassed! The fighter, in turn, has fantastic saving throws and, likely, a boatload of hit points so the mage better have a good way of dealing with a serious fighter - that's what golems or conjured demons/elementals are for, really! To keep the fighter from turning you into ground sausage. There are not all that many spells with no saves, and most of those are either extremely high level or have other limitations like HD or Int, such as Command or Sleep. Once you start to get to spells like Forcecage and Etherealness, though, you have a good shot at at least escaping. It really is a shame that no video game can even begin to emulate the kind of wack combat you often ended up with in 2e, even by just 5th level, with the bizarre spells and powers available to the various classes and settings.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 15:51
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Isn't a common criticism of 2nd ed that fighters, while as you say gain slaves and powerful suplexes, sort of fizzle out by the late-game, whereas mages and druids can cast spells with no saving throws allowed that either stun or otherwise disable the THAC0-monsters? Obviously one'd try to disable the mages first, but that's why they get spells that make them suplex-proof, right? You're still thinking more of 3e. Back in 2e there were still some creative tricks to get around saves & spell resistance, but not nearly the range of options that 3e spellcasters had. 2e fighters were criticized for being one-dimensional and limited in their options, but for straight up wrecking face they never went out of style.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 17:53
|
|
|
sb hermit posted:I'm imagining the classic D&D arcade game, Shadow Over Mystara, except the fighter is replaced by Zangief. That is a mod I would play. Replace the elf with Chun-Li while you're at it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 18:03
|
|
|
I would enjoy taking any Street Fighter through that game. Bison vs Red Dragon. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 19:16
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Isn't a common criticism of 2nd ed that fighters, while as you say gain slaves and powerful suplexes, sort of fizzle out by the late-game, whereas mages and druids can cast spells with no saving throws allowed that either stun or otherwise disable the THAC0-monsters? Obviously one'd try to disable the mages first, but that's why they get spells that make them suplex-proof, right? I mean, depends! If your fighter is just "swing sword, whack whack whonk," then yes. But keep in mind that a Fighter can have more than one weapon. Mage on the other side of a ravine? Bring out your bow. Mage on the other side of the room? Throwing knives. Mage on the other side of a fortress? Get your 1000-strong army to set up that trebuchet while your lieutenant Jimmy the Uvula sets the sappers working on undermining the walls. There are also no real "no saving throw allowed"-spells against meaningful enemies. The ones that exist, like "Word of X" are explicitly only functional against low-power enemies and are meant to be for a mage to just be able to nix a pack of giant spiders or goblins, not a demon lord or a very angry fighter(the two are somewhat similar). Obviously you can get creative with terrain effects like turning the ground beneath the fighter into a swamp or suchlike, but that won't help you much if the Fighter approaches from cover(where your weedy wizard eyes might not spot him before it's too late) or the fighter sinks up to his hips in a bog just as the first volley of arrow fire arrives from his loyal troops. You can put up some defensive spells... if you know there's a need for them and do so in advance, which also takes a chunk out of your spell slots available for powerful offense. Additionally, a high-level fighter likely has magic weapons, and most of a mage's most useful magical defenses... are against mundane weapons or spells, not the two combined in magical steel. inscrutable horse posted:OK, not to derail this thread even further with edition chat, but you HAVE GOT to elaborate on that one! 2nd ed got an expansion in the form of the "Player's Option" supplements which turned it into 2.5ed. The quality of the additions are a bit up and down, some are a bit fiddly, some are unbalancing, but most of them are good. Of note is the Combat & Tactics supplement that's focused on spicing up playing a swordyman. It allows Fighters to specialize in unarmed combat, specifically in wrestling, and adds a decent subsystem for it. At some point I crunched the numbers and found that if the Fighter had a party willing to run distraction, it was entirely plausible for him to put a mid-range red dragon into a headlock, and an enemy without backup put into a headlock by a Fighter is in some serious trouble since A) it deals increasing damage per round(Not quite exponential, but close), which prevents casters from doing any casty stuff, B) it greatly decreases their options in combat to "try to get this jackass away from me" and they can only fight back with small weapons like knives. Against human-sized enemies, in particular mages, anything put into a headlock just dies. Because nine times out of ten unless they have friends who can bail them out very quickly, they will die before they shake the Fighter off, just annihilated into a pretzel by his pro-wrestling prowess. Now, part of the issue here is that Fighters and Mages are largely not meant to fight each other, they're meant to supplement each other in fights against NPC enemies. The Mage drops a fireball on the chaff, so the Fighter can run in and solo-challenge the dragon or demon lord. The Mage drops buffs on the Fighter so he can suplex Gardothyr the Ebon Knee off the turnbuckle face first into the mat. Once the Fighter has henchment and lieutenants, they also become very good targets for some of the mage's more esoteric arsenal like illusionary terrain. No cover for the cavalry ambush? No problem, Gorbo the Mauve whips up an illusory forest. Got trouble ranging in that trebuchet? My good fellow that's what the pantheon gave us the spell Clairvoyance for... a few more yards to the left, that'll get the main gatehouse! But it helps illustrate that they are both very handy and Fighters in 2e are by no means slouches. the holy poopacy posted:You're still thinking more of 3e. Back in 2e there were still some creative tricks to get around saves & spell resistance, but not nearly the range of options that 3e spellcasters had. Also agree, they could use some more tricks but... their "one" trick is so good that mechanically they don't need anything else.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 20:22
|
|
|
sb hermit posted:I'm imagining the classic D&D role-playing game, Pool of Radiance, except the fighter is replaced by Zangief.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 21:09
|
|
|
 I love how AD&D 2nd Ed. is basically just dnd.txt
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 21:11
|
|
|
Something else I wanted to leave here:Eye of the Boulder, The Runes of the Myth Drainer posted:My love, my life, my doom! I began my search for the Eye shortly after my nineteenth year, while still in training with the Necromancers. Had I known at that young age what would befall me upon the completion of my undertaking, I would have spent my days differently, seeking companionship over mystic power; warm love rather than cold stone. But my desire for the Eye was all consuming.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 21:18
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:stuff ... and here we thought that Leon Kennedy suplexing a zombie was badarse.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 23:49
|
|
|
Hannibal Rex posted:Something else I wanted to leave here: without googling, I remember this text from... ultima 8, I believe? Either that or Ultima Online.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2022 23:59
|
|
|
The reference to the Necromancers in the first line is a direct reference to Ultima 8. The game goes from completely unplayable to being just terrible when they patched the jumping mechanics. The combat is still bad but the spell systems had a lot of character.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 00:03
|
|
|
sb hermit posted:without googling, I remember this text from... ultima 8, I believe? Yeah, Ultima 8, making a dig how far behind Ultima Underworld Eye off the Beholder 3 was. I will add that EoB2 was my very first D&D game, and I had gotten EoB3 for my birthday, and I really did not like to see its honor besmirched thusly, despite it really having been something of a letdown.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 00:06
|
|
|
Hannibal Rex posted:Yeah, Ultima 8, making a dig how far behind Ultima Underworld Eye off the Beholder 3 was. I will add that EoB2 was my very first D&D game, and I had gotten EoB3 for my birthday, and I really did not like to see its honor besmirched thusly, despite it really having been something of a letdown. You can take solace in the fact that EoB 3 and similar "blobber" games were the last with first person views that actually had a party system with companions that stick with you the entire game. A notable exception was Daikatana, but they didn't really come back until around the age of Bioshock Infinite and Uncharted where their behavior and animation is a lot more scripted and fluid. First person shooters love their jumping puzzles, but that was one more nail in the coffin of having a companion AI. I have heard that the ultima underworld series was good but I haven't played it myself, having been bit by the Doom and Duke Nukem 3D bugs and multiplayer on those games was incredibly good.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 04:00
|
|
|
Keep in mind that Ultima was well known for having an incredibly good party system from Ultima 3 to Ultima 7p2 and including the Worlds spinoffs. Underworld, 8, and 9 didn't have a party system, which was such a letdown. Instead, 8 and 9 had jumping puzzles and platforming, which was pretty bad and something I already complained about.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 04:05
|
|
|
Ultima 8 and 9 were bad for a lot of reasons. Awful loving games. Also there was a brief "blobber" resurgence that included Legend of Grimrock 1 and 2, the second, in particular, was a very fun game.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 10:31
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:Ultima 8 and 9 were bad for a lot of reasons. Awful loving games. I think that MIght & Magic X was solid too, but it didn't sell enough for the purse-string holders so we will probably never see another one.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 14:25
|
|
|
JustJeff88 posted:I think that MIght & Magic X was solid too, but it didn't sell enough for the purse-string holders so we will probably never see another one. Honestly, I'm glad. Might and Magic without the robots and lasers just... isn't Might and Magic.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 14:29
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:Honestly, I'm glad. Might and Magic without the robots and lasers just... isn't Might and Magic. Not me. I never really cared about that part of it. I didn't hate the sci-fi elements, but I wouldn't miss them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 15:01
|
|
|
Underworld I & II are a bit odd. The early 3D is both a blessing and a curse; they're massive technological landmarks (Underworld I predates and was an inspiration for Wolf 3D, but many of its engine capabilities are closer to DooM) but also, they're definitely janky. They're solid games if you can get past that and Underworld II in particular takes a concept that's cool as hell and has a lot of fun with it, but you do have to grapple with the engine a fair bit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 15:21
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:Honestly, I'm glad. Might and Magic without the robots and lasers just... isn't Might and Magic.  Gotta have robots, laser guns, and well actually the world you're on is a giant colony ship.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 16:08
|
|
|
I tried to like MMX but my inner nostalgic child cried out for a XEEN accurate interface.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 16:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 05:08 |
|
|
By popular demand posted:I tried to like MMX but my inner nostalgic child cried out for a XEEN accurate interface. the two Xeen games also had, let's say, "incredible" voice acting? I put this together as a capture test for someone's WoX lp, I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YHdW6TCT5I still classic and yes as far as I'm concerned the setting elements of M&M were key to setting it apart in the genre. Finding the crashed ship on Darkside of Xeen was unbelievably cool as you started to finally figure out what was really going on behind the scenes, it ruled then and it rules now.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2022 20:08
|
|
