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Office Pig posted:it's stunningly sloppy for a successful assassination, why would you pile into a largely rural country with a team in the double digits and then announce your presence through a bullhorn after firing off dozens of rounds into the home of the country's president, and not have anything resembling an escape plan to the point that a bunch of dudes in the countryside can just pick you up and throw you onto the back of a truck?
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Jul 9, 2021 19:47
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its really stupid which makes me think dueling prime ministers but then i think back to operation gideon ending in tears and i wonder seems like weird timing for the cia, but theres plenty of defense contractors like silvercorp out there youd think
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Jul 9, 2021 19:50
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multiple teams given different egress strategies, all of them with plans to leave the others to be patsies
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Jul 9, 2021 20:10
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Office Pig posted:it's stunningly sloppy for a successful assassination, why would you pile into a largely rural country with a team in the double digits and then announce your presence through a bullhorn after firing off dozens of rounds into the home of the country's president, and not have anything resembling an escape plan to the point that a bunch of dudes in the countryside can just pick you up and throw you onto the back of a truck? the only thing that strikes me as sloppy is that they didn't seem to have an exit plan, but i think it's just as likely that either that fell apart or they straight up got double-crossed not to get all tom clancy but maybe they're hired by someone (cia, one of the rival prime minister candidates, whoever) but the guys on the ground think they're working for someone else if the assassination attempt works, that's great for whoever actually hired them, but even if it fails, now there's some surviving members of a hit squad who earnestly believe they were hired by someone the cia or whoever wants to frame or maybe they had an extraction plan but something went sideways (truck breaks down, boat isn't there, etc.) and now they're stuck
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Jul 9, 2021 20:38
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I feel like everybody blaming the CIA is forgetting that the CIA (and America in general) has not given a poo poo about Haiti for at least the last 30 years or so. The only thing the American body politic would like to do regarding Haiti is not to have to deal with anymore Haitian refugees and, ideally, send the ones we already have back. Executing a plan whose result is literally everyone going "Well, shits REALLY hosed up now" seems to run counter to that goal.
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Jul 9, 2021 22:02
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Taiwan continues it's assault on the free peoples of the earth
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Jul 9, 2021 22:03
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Toplowtech posted:Note that Columbia, Venezuela, Ecuador and Panama all used to be part of Gran Columbia. Great Columbia : John Quincy Adams, then Secretary of State and future president of the United States (after some grand elector vote fuckery), once claimed it to '"be one of the most powerful nations on the plane". It's so surprising they keep falling into pieces. It's like someone is really having fun keeping them that way. But yeah, Brazil is the only country intact enough for hegemony. John Q.'s dad was also probably the last president that actually gave a poo poo about Haiti beyond a place to gently caress with, starve to death, or ship off freed slaves.
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Jul 10, 2021 00:22
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CleverHans posted:I feel like everybody blaming the CIA is forgetting that the CIA (and America in general) has not given a poo poo about Haiti for at least the last 30 years or so. utterly false in every regard, please educate yourself
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Jul 10, 2021 00:39
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CleverHans posted:I feel like everybody blaming the CIA is forgetting that the CIA (and America in general) has not given a poo poo about Haiti for at least the last 30 years or so. 
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Jul 10, 2021 00:43
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well now haiti has asked for the us to send troops and protect infrastructure so im sure that will solve all the problems https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/09/haiti-requests-us-troops-protect-infrastructure-assassination
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Jul 10, 2021 00:52
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Alright, didn't realize Aristide was only 17 years ago. The rest of my analysis stands.
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Jul 10, 2021 00:58
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CleverHans posted:Alright, didn't realize Aristide was only 17 years ago. your analysis sucks poo poo
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Jul 10, 2021 01:00
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you should look up and see what the clinton foundation got up to in haiti if you want to see what the us "not caring" looks like... or what trade agreements did to haitian agriculture in recent decades.
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Jul 10, 2021 01:14
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lobster shirt posted:well now haiti has asked for the us to send troops and protect infrastructure so im sure that will solve all the problems Hell yea the roarin 20s really are coming back!
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Jul 10, 2021 01:24
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Haiti dared to have a successful revolution to throw out their colonial overseers and have paid the price ever since.
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Jul 10, 2021 01:49
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Jul 10, 2021 02:00
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lobster shirt posted:you should look up and see what the clinton foundation got up to in haiti if you want to see what the us "not caring" looks like... or what trade agreements did to haitian agriculture in recent decades. Imperialists trying to create stevia plantations in Haiti is a weird full circle from French colonial days https://twitter.com/EugenePuryear/status/1377983193480110081?s=20 https://haitiliberte.com/haitis-de-facto-president-gives-haiti-to-coca-cola/
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Jul 10, 2021 02:48
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Haitians, probably. or are we pretending that smoking moise wasn't good?
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Jul 10, 2021 02:54
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TenementFunster posted:Haitians, probably. or are we pretending that smoking moise wasn't good? the last time haiti was up for discussion around here centered around the protests against the government letting the country go to seed, which was quite a while ago. in truth it's not unreasonable to chalk this up to an internal affair (and with that tidbit about haitian 'officials' requesting us assistance i'm actually leaning towards that more than before). nevertheless the circumstances are decidedly precarious even in absence of the former president overstaying his welcome, and while there are a few ways this could go down now, the ways that are bad have the potential to be very, very bad
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Jul 10, 2021 03:01
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still holding out hope for brazil however, don't ask me how i know but something bout that coked up bolso fella strikes me as no good
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Jul 10, 2021 03:01
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Laterite posted:Haiti dared to have a successful revolution to throw out their colonial overseers and have paid the price ever since. And had the temerity to be black while doing so. They never had a prayer
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Jul 10, 2021 03:04
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lobster shirt posted:you should look up and see what the clinton foundation got up to in haiti if you want to see what the us "not caring" looks like... or what trade agreements did to haitian agriculture in recent decades. Running roughshod over poverty stricken nations via economic policies is par for the US course. Pulling triggers on heads of state, on the other hand, is quite a different matter, at least over the last few decades. Witness the big old stink produced by Trump icing little old Soleimani. Ironically, the former is probably vastly worse, from a human cost perspective, than the latter, but your average newsreader sees the headline, shrugs and says "well, that's Africa/Asia/S. America for you!" and skips along.
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Jul 10, 2021 03:05
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Office Pig posted:still holding out hope for brazil however, don't ask me how i know but something bout that coked up bolso fella strikes me as no good Fearing the upcoming election, Bolsonaro will begin to coopt some of Lula's policies. Starting with sending troops to occupy Haiti.
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Jul 10, 2021 03:05
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a few DRUNK BONERS posted:your analysis sucks poo poo I am breathlessly awaiting your convincing argument about how the U.S. benefited from this clusterfuck, or your admission that the brilliant, 5D chess move that the CIA just pulled here is beyond your reckoning.
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Jul 10, 2021 03:09
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Atrocious Joe posted:a bunch of them tried to hide out in the Taiwanese embassy CleverHans posted:I feel like everybody blaming the CIA is forgetting that the CIA (and America in general) has not given a poo poo about Haiti for at least the last 30 years or so. TenementFunster has issued a correction as of 03:16 on Jul 10, 2021 |
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Jul 10, 2021 03:13
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CleverHans posted:I feel like everybody blaming the CIA is forgetting that the CIA (and America in general) has not given a poo poo about Haiti for at least the last 30 years or so. The US prefers the following from foreign governments, in order: 1. A stable government friendly to US interests that can be relied upon to act how the US wants with minimal intervention. 2. An unstable government generally friendly to US interests but which requires prodding, threats, bribes, leadership changes, etc. to act how the US wants. 3. No government at all, just complete anarchy, refugees, starvation, etc. 4. A government even marginally hostile to US interests. The US is completely fine with option 3 so long as it prevents option 4. They'd definitely prefer to option 2 but they're more than willing to take out anyone who isn't useful and devolve down to 3, because they know they can keep a country there indefinitely. That said, I'm not convinced this was anything more than an internal thing, but pretending that the US will not completely destroy a country over and over and over rather than tolerate even the slightest hostility towards US interests is ahistorical and deeply naive.
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Jul 10, 2021 03:14
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Office Pig posted:the last time haiti was up for discussion around here centered around the protests against the government letting the country go to seed, which was quite a while ago. in truth it's not unreasonable to chalk this up to an internal affair (and with that tidbit about haitian 'officials' requesting us assistance i'm actually leaning towards that more than before). nevertheless the circumstances are decidedly precarious even in absence of the former president overstaying his welcome, and while there are a few ways this could go down now, the ways that are bad have the potential to be very, very bad
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Jul 10, 2021 03:22
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Azathoth posted:The US prefers the following from foreign governments, in order: I would not argue this point with you, in fact, I largely agree with your analysis. I haven't seen a great deal of evidence, however, that the ex-president was remotely worth the trouble to try "bay-of-pigs"ing.
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Jul 10, 2021 03:32
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https://twitter.com/AcrossMediums/status/1413361708354064384 👀
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Jul 10, 2021 03:46
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Haiti owes us
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Jul 10, 2021 03:48
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It probably makes more sense to discuss factions within the US, rather than assuming there is a united US policy on the specifics of Haitian politics. For example, if the assassination involved a coalition of Colombians, Haitians, and people from the DR, then some people in US government probably knew about it, and at the very least didn't intervene to stop it. This can all happen without Joe Biden or Blinken even being aware of it. Even if high levels of the executive branch did sign off on assassinating Moise, the US can be involved without being the main force behind it. I can imagine scenarios where some US officials aren't complicit, but I don't think they're likely.
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Jul 10, 2021 03:52
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Haiti requests US send troops following president's assassination Haiti's government who? Doesn't seem real clear who exactly is requesting this. "No thanks" seems to be the rational response here.
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Jul 10, 2021 03:56
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CleverHans posted:I would not argue this point with you, in fact, I largely agree with your analysis. I haven't seen a great deal of evidence, however, that the ex-president was remotely worth the trouble to try "bay-of-pigs"ing. It's very possible that some internal faction brought in some foreign mercenaries for plausible deniability and botched getting them out of the country, but if this did involve other governments, there's no way this happens without the US's tacit permission at a minimum. My read is that Moïse outlived his usefulness to the US, and the powers that be correctly assessed that one way or another, he was gonna be removed from power. So when a viable plot came up, they made it known to the right people that the US has no problem with it, even if they didn't take an active hand in shaping it or otherwise supporting it.
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Jul 10, 2021 04:01
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CleverHans posted:I feel like everybody blaming the CIA is forgetting that the CIA (and America in general) has not given a poo poo about Haiti for at least the last 30 years or so. america invaded loving grenada lol, the US doesn't have to give a poo poo about a country to gently caress with it (e: oops wrong quote)
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Jul 10, 2021 04:02
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Azathoth posted:This may be splitting hairs, but I think it's worth talking about levels of US involvement. Now this is a very plausible read of the situation. Some lower level diplomat lets the locals know that "the US will support whoever has the popular support of the people and is friendly to US interests" and some local factions take that as carte blanche to go buck wild and hire mercs as an assassination force for their obstacles. I wouldn't rule out other, lesser regional powers fingers in the pie too.
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Jul 10, 2021 04:11
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Maurice Bishop was cool and an easy target for Reagan to demonstrate his anti-communist crusade
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Jul 10, 2021 04:11
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Atrocious Joe posted:It probably makes more sense to discuss factions within the US, rather than assuming there is a united US policy on the specifics of Haitian politics. For example, if the assassination involved a coalition of Colombians, Haitians, and people from the DR, then some people in US government probably knew about it, and at the very least didn't intervene to stop it. This can all happen without Joe Biden or Blinken even being aware of it. Complicit seems like kinda a relative term. If we get intel that BoJo or Macron have an assassination attempt pending, you better believe they are getting an immediate call. If it's, like, the president of Kyrgyzstan, where the different leadership scenarios are six-of-one, half a dozen of another  .
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Jul 10, 2021 04:19
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It’s probably some local oligarchs saying “We’ll kill the guy to end the chaos and make sure the next guy who wins an election to follow him looks legitimate and is equally subservient to US interests” and the state department said 
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Jul 10, 2021 06:36
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Atrocious Joe posted:Imperialists trying to create stevia plantations in Haiti is a weird full circle from French colonial days So is peasants farmers preferring sustainable agriculture and fighting their stupid government that tried to appease American interest.
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Jul 10, 2021 06:50
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CleverHans posted:Complicit seems like kinda a relative term. Yeah but if the US was aware of a credible assassination attempt o Moise and they didn't at least warn him I'd definitely call that complicit in his assassination, regardless of whether they planned it or not.
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Jul 10, 2021 08:17
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