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BonoMan posted:Look I get it. After an emergency if it's literally the ONLY place to eat, nobody is going to hate on you for eating it. That location is, yes.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:06
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Seems like there were plenty of restaurants that stepped up after the Cedar Rapids derecho. Sounds like you've got plenty of places worth supporting for the same reason. https://www.thegazette.com/food-drink/after-the-derecho-ripped-through-iowa-local-restaurants-stepped-in-to-feed-storm-victims/
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Jul 15, 2021 18:08
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Golbez posted:That location is, yes. Do you not see how insisting on centering the discussion on one particular location as numerous LGBT posters tell you that this is about more than your local mom n pop franchise, makes it seem like you're insanely callous or indifferent to the suffering and civil rights of others?
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Jul 15, 2021 18:08
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ram dass in hell posted:Do you not see how insisting on centering the discussion on one particular location as numerous LGBT posters tell you that this is about more than your local mom n pop franchise, makes it seem like you're insanely callous or indifferent to the suffering and civil rights of others? Do you not see how a blanket statement of "If you eat at Chick-fil-A you're a piece of poo poo" is maybe not the best way to make friends and influence people? Kaal posted:Seems like there were plenty of restaurants that stepped up after the Cedar Rapids derecho. Sounds like you've got plenty of places worth supporting for the same reason. Lot of August 12s showing up there, CFA was open Aug 11 I think. But, that's not the point. I'm not even saying they were first (just that they were the first I was aware of), or best, or anything. But they were there. And I'm not going to tell them, "Thanks, but your parent company does bad things, so I'm going to this other place whose parent company does other bad things." Golbez fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 18:09
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If you eat at CFA you have bad taste in fast food chicken, politics be damned.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:10
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Golbez posted:Do you not see how a blanket statement of "If you eat at Chick-fil-A you're a piece of poo poo" is maybe not the best way to make friends and influence people? So no, then.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:11
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Shooting Blanks posted:If you eat at CFA you have bad taste in fast food chicken, politics be damned. Well, yeah
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Jul 15, 2021 18:12
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ram dass in hell posted:Do you not see how insisting on centering the discussion on one particular location as numerous LGBT posters tell you that this is about more than your local mom n pop franchise, makes it seem like you're insanely callous or indifferent to the suffering and civil rights of others? Do you have any kind of notion of how much negative impact on civil rights a person eating at CFA has? Because I sort of doubt it's measurable or significant enough to warrant shaming individual consumers for. Animal rights however is a very potent vector for criticism and it just shows how callous so many are to the suffering of animals that it doesn't even come up in these discussions.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:12
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MixMasterMalaria posted:Do you have any kind of notion of how much negative impact on civil rights a person eating at CFA has? Because I sort of doubt it's measurable or significant enough to warrant shaming individual consumers for. how do you feel about buying a mypillow
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Jul 15, 2021 18:13
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ram dass in hell posted:how do you feel about buying a mypillow How do you feel sleeping on that strawman?
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Jul 15, 2021 18:14
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MixMasterMalaria posted:Do you have any kind of notion of how much negative impact on civil rights a person eating at CFA has? Because I sort of doubt it's measurable or significant enough to warrant shaming individual consumers for. Hey, it's possible a half-penny of the total money I've spent there went to oppress gay people, and that's unfortunate and I'm sorry. ram dass in hell posted:how do you feel about buying a mypillow I owned several before he turned out to be a chud, but it's actually quite a comfy pillow. Wouldn't buy one now though.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:15
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Golbez posted:Yes, they sold it. As for the second part, don't know, but that question would apply to anyone. Does that mean I shouldn't be thankful that those workers and that franchisee were able to reopen before anyone else? You're veering into the perfect being the enemy of the good. "Why do you like [x] they only did that because they were forced to do so by the nature of capitalism" well, yes, that's the curse we live with. The only place I’m veering into is “it’s loving weird that you’ve developed this loyalty to a specific Chik-Fil-A franchise that did a business transaction with you and sold your family some sandwiches because they were the first place to open after a natural disaster” And I’m gonna add that it’s extra loving weird that you treat this action like a lifesaving form of charity carried out by a unified front of dedicated personnel with a shared mission operating out of goodness and duty, and not the reality—which is almost certainly some small business jagoff forcing his wage slave employees to risk their safety traveling through an active natural disaster zone *before anybody else* to come work a regular shift at a fast food restaurant that by your own description didn’t have fully working utilities or power (and also had just experienced that same natural disaster, presumably without a building inspection in-between), which itself is so many loving OSHA violations. You don’t owe them jack, and the fact that you hold up the utterly pants-on-head idea that you do as “the reason why I continue to eat there regularly without a twinge of guilt, and will always push back against critics who say that eating there supports bigotry” doesn’t directly paint you as a bigot, but it does paint you as dumber than dog poo poo if you think that this reasoning makes any sense at all to anybody but you.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:16
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Golbez posted:Hey, it's possible a half-penny of the total money I've spent there went to oppress gay people, and that's unfortunate and I'm sorry. I mean it's worth discussing too and collective symbolic actions have meaning. I'm not saying we should eat at CFA, just that I'm not really convinced that it's productive or proportionate to focus so much energy being critical of people who eat there.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:17
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MixMasterMalaria posted:Do you have any kind of notion of how much negative impact on civil rights a person eating at CFA has? Because I sort of doubt it's measurable or significant enough to warrant shaming individual consumers for. Animal rights however is a very potent vector for criticism and it just shows how callous so many are to the suffering of animals that it doesn't even come up in these discussions. I mean I just posted a bunch of donation numbers showcasing how CFA is a particular outlier for donating large amounts of money to hate groups. And a lot of the fast food restaurants that don't donate to Republicans are also the ones that have significant vegan or vegetarian options.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:17
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Golbez posted:
But by your logic you would consider him rehabilitated if he happened to hand a few out after a disaster.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:22
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Ok Comboomer posted:The only place I’m veering into is “it’s loving weird that you’ve developed this loyalty to a specific Chik-Fil-A franchise that did a business transaction with you and sold your family some sandwiches because they were the first place to open after a natural disaster” You're putting way too much into this. No, it wasn't charity, and I know I don't "owe" them anything. But I won't feel bad for eating there, well, any worse than I would feel eating at any corporate restaurant. I feel like they earned that tiny amount of goodwill. You don't, that's fine. BonoMan posted:But by your logic you would consider him rehabilitated if he happened to hand a few out after a disaster. ah yes, pillows, that necessity of life. But you know what, yes, if Mike Lindell himself showed up, to throw us paper towels or chicken sandwiches or whatever happens when the government shows up (which they never did, which is a topic I could write a lot about), then yeah, he'll have earned a tiny bit of goodwill with me. He would have quickly flushed it, but in that moment, I'd be like, "hey, thanks for your help." Wouldn't buy his pillows though. A better attempt at equivalency would be, would I continue to shop at a local place that was a franchisee of a company he owned that was there when we needed them? Maybe. I'll let you know when it happens. Golbez fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 18:23
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Golbez posted:You're putting way too much into this. No, it wasn't charity, and I know I don't "owe" them anything. But I won't feel bad for eating there, well, any worse than I would feel eating at any corporate restaurant. I feel like they earned that tiny amount of goodwill. You don't, that's fine. Who earned it? The workers? Their boss? The “team”? This line of reasoning doesn’t make any sense Edit: also, you kinda contradict yourself by saying that you don’t owe them anything before saying that you feel like they earned your goodwill trilobite terror fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 18:26
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Golbez posted:You're putting way too much into this. No, it wasn't charity, and I know I don't "owe" them anything. But I won't feel bad for eating there, well, any worse than I would feel eating at any corporate restaurant. I feel like they earned that tiny amount of goodwill. You don't, that's fine. You are literally saying that - *EVEN WHEN PRESENTED WITH FACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF HOW PARTICULARLY HATE GROUP-Y A COMPANY IS* - you are willing to hand wave all that aside and support them if they provide a temporary comfort to you. (and by the way, towels/blankets/etc are huge post-disaster relief items). I mean do you know what that says about you? You get all mad that you felt someone was blanket judging Chick-Fil-A supporters and your *RESPONSE* is to say that "yes they do support hate groups but I'm ok with that because they one time were the first to open after a disaster." Nobody is more deserving of that blanket judgement than you.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:29
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Kaal posted:I mean I just posted a bunch of donation numbers showcasing how CFA is a particular outlier for donating large amounts of money to hate groups. And a lot of the fast food restaurants that don't donate to Republicans are also the ones that have significant vegan or vegetarian options. Yes we know corporate/ownership have a lot of problematic ties. I'm suggesting that a consumer buying a chicken sandwich is pretty far removed from all that and the material support that filters to Fellowship of Christian Athletes from a purchase was probably like fractions of a cent at most, even when CFA was supporting them. This whole thing makes me pretty uncomfortable since taking this side of the discussion puts me closer to defending such donations than I ever want to be.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:31
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BonoMan posted:You are literally saying that - *EVEN WHEN PRESENTED WITH FACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF HOW PARTICULARLY HATE GROUP-Y A COMPANY IS* - you are willing to hand wave all that aside and support them if they provide a temporary comfort to you. (and by the way, towels/blankets/etc are huge post-disaster relief items). quote:I mean do you know what that says about you? You get all mad that you felt someone was blanket judging Chick-Fil-A supporters and your *RESPONSE* is to say that "yes they do support hate groups but I'm ok with that because they one time were the first to open after a disaster." My point is, as stated, we all have our own poo poo going on. Don't judge someone for patronizing a problematic establishment because you don't know their life and what's going on in it. If someone is willing to say "you're a piece of poo poo for eating at Chick-fil-A" then surely they're willing to go up to anyone shopping there and telling them they're a piece of poo poo, right? Without finding out why or who? No? Huh. Short version: Something something ethical consumption.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:35
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MixMasterMalaria posted:Do you have any kind of notion of how much negative impact on civil rights a person eating at CFA has? Because I sort of doubt it's measurable or significant enough to warrant shaming individual consumers for. Animal rights however is a very potent vector for criticism and it just shows how callous so many are to the suffering of animals that it doesn't even come up in these discussions. CFA seems to be directly contributing to groups working against LGBT rights, so that's probably more of a negative impact then the average corp, particularly with how hot trans rights issues are lately, it seems like fuel on the fire for the reactionary movement. Golbez posted:That location [and maybe franchisee, I should find out!], yes. I feel I've been clear on this point.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:37
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BonoMan posted:You are literally saying that - *EVEN WHEN PRESENTED WITH FACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF HOW PARTICULARLY HATE GROUP-Y A COMPANY IS* - you are willing to hand wave all that aside and support them if they provide a temporary comfort to you. (and by the way, towels/blankets/etc are huge post-disaster relief items). It’s literally a “not all men” defense, but about a chicken sandwich restaurant that’s objectively worse than Popeyes E:fb
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Jul 15, 2021 18:39
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CFA's only sin is being uniquely unethical compared to all the other fast food places. not remarkably. not more. just unique and weird compared to the rest the other franchising megacorps do their own heavy lifting with unethical political donations, and exploitation, and vigorously preserving unsustainable vampire farming methods and regional political oppression of indigenous populations and their native lands to keep our own fast food pipelines cheaper so they can pocket the difference and all that we barely even care anymore because for decades it's just been ubiquitous and seemingly unaffectable in a world of global capital so we just shrug and carry on eating there because what are we gonna do, be a hermit and live entirely off of humanely harvested pinion nuts CFA's board wears their religious fundamentalism and activism on their sleeve and become Weird And Different Unethical so it gets targeted by the rare left wing activism that hasn't already shriveled up. with the other fast food franchises, the unethical actions in question remains ubiquitous, 'normal' and indefatigable so we just inure ourselves to it as a survival mechanism. but CFA has Bigotry Sammiches so we suddenly spruce up and can all yell at people about eating there me, i'm different and cool and better than you so i will instead yell and be pompous at you about eating at CFA if you have literally any decent local home-grown chicken shops because you are fortunate enough not to live in a COMPLETE food desert. they are usually producing better chicken and they need your support and they probably don't order their staff to be stepford wife rear end looking cultist smilebots 24/7 so do that instead
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Jul 15, 2021 18:39
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Oxyclean posted:It just strikes me as more of a matter of there being a dozen other places you could eat at. Like a lot of the "no ethical consumption under capitalism" issue strikes me as a matter of making better choices where you can. It'd be one thing if there was no alternative, but there's a lot, and it's also just fast food. And may of the alternatives aren't a lot better, but they still aren't wearing it on their sleeve. I'm positive I'm doing far more harm to the world through stuff I have no possibility of knowing than through shopping at a particular Chick-fil-A. quote:I don't think anyone would fault someone for going to Chik-Fil-A in extenuating circumstances. I think the implied point is that people are pieces of poo poo for choosing it when they have alternatives. You are basically doing a "not all men." Hey, this is a good response! You've got a point, it is kind of "not all men"ing, and you've got me reconsidering my statements. I think I'm just using it as an excuse to point out that it's all virtue signaling. CFA does harm, but companies we've never heard of yet interact with every day do immeasurable harm as well. Seems lovely to just rag on people wanting a sandwich, especially when you don't know anything about them. I'm reminded of when my chud mom said she didn't want to deal with Amazon anymore because of the Washington Post. like, good luck using the web without interacting with AWS. Oh, you don't care about that part? Huh. Interesting.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:42
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MixMasterMalaria posted:Yes we know corporate/ownership have a lot of problematic ties. I'm suggesting that a consumer buying a chicken sandwich is pretty far removed from all that and the material support that filters to Fellowship of Christian Athletes from a purchase was probably like fractions of a cent at most, even when CFA was supporting them. This whole thing makes me pretty uncomfortable since taking this side of the discussion puts me closer to defending such donations than I ever want to be. I mean buying a chicken sandwich at Burger King last month would result in a 40 cent donation to the Human Rights Campaign. The idea that supporting Chick-Fil-A somehow can be divorced from its massive donations to horrible groups seems untenable to me. To get away from Golbez's story a little bit: For myself, after I moved to DC from the West Coast it was disappointing to find that Chick-Fil-A is as popular as it is here. The otherwise generally liberal population clearly has no issue with Chick-Fil-A's institutional homophobia, and supports the restaurants at levels that are way higher than they ever would be in Portland or elsewhere on the West Coast. It's one of the biggest brands in the United States, following McDonalds and Starbucks, and it clearly has no real problem competing in markets where public sentiment should be highly opposed to it. Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 18:44
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Kaal posted:I mean buying a chicken sandwich at Burger King last month would result in a 40 cent donation to the Human Rights Campaign. The idea that supporting Chick-Fil-A somehow can be divorced from its massive donations to horrible groups seems untenable to me. CFA got to the DC area about 22 years ago, as I recall, so recent enough that it might be considered "new" by some people, but old enough to predate the revelations of their donations. It's not like it moved in after everyone knew they were dicks and people decided to eat there anyway. It's hard to give up habits, including food habits.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:46
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Golbez posted:CFA got to the DC area about 22 years ago, as I recall, so recent enough that it might be considered "new" by some people, but old enough to predate the revelations of their donations. It's not like it moved in after everyone knew they were dicks and people decided to eat there anyway. It's hard to give up habits, including food habits. That's a good context, but DC is such a transitory city that any business that's around for more than five years probably predates the customers coming there. In the area I live, the customers are almost entirely students who definitely should and probably do know better. There's a lot of collective shrugging about it all, which seems insane to me because Chick-Fil-A is both uniquely and particularly supportive of unethical organizations, and there are many convenient alternatives. Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 18:49
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Golbez posted:The problem is abstraction. Tyson did some really bad things during the pandemic - is anyone calling for people to stop buying from them? How would you know? Their product is no-label resold by hundreds of companies. Dude I flat out said nobody is going to judge anybody for eating where they can in a disaster. It's *after* the disaster and you continue to support them because that little bit of action bought enough goodwill for you to not care about them hating LGTBQ people. And just saying "well everyone does bad poo poo we might not know about... guess I'll support an explicitly vocal evil corporation!" is quite the loving take.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:49
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Kaal posted:I mean DC is such a transitory city that any business that's around for more than five years probably predates the customers coming there. In the area I live, the customers are almost entirely students who definitely should and probably do know better. If it’s American U, isn’t that student body pretty chuddy? Like isn’t the joke that American is where wannabe politicos go in DC if Georgetown is too liberal? (or they didn’t get in?)
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Jul 15, 2021 18:56
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Golbez posted:Hey, this is a good response! You've got a point, it is kind of "not all men"ing, and you've got me reconsidering my statements. I think I'm just using it as an excuse to point out that it's all virtue signaling. CFA does harm, but companies we've never heard of yet interact with every day do immeasurable harm as well. Seems lovely to just rag on people wanting a sandwich, especially when you don't know anything about them. But again, the point of "no unethical consumption under capitalism" is not as a blanket excuse, but to outline that very last issue. It is incredibly hard to avoid using Amazon based services in some way. Doesn't mean one should throw up their hands and give up any effort of trying to be more ethical. People giving people flak over Chik-Fil-A is because people are openly admitting they don't care to even make the small effort of choosing a non-openly bigotted chicken chain. Yeah, maybe it is petty or "virtual signaling," and maybe the actual harm isn't all that different at the end of the day, but it almost feels like it normalizes the hate that most people meet the company's existence with a "well the chicken and service are good." Like it almost feels like a demoralizing recognition of how rooted the hate is.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:58
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BonoMan posted:Dude I flat out said nobody is going to judge anybody for eating where they can in a disaster. quote:It's *after* the disaster and you continue to support them because that little bit of action bought enough goodwill for you to not care about them hating LGTBQ people. quote:And just saying "well everyone does bad poo poo we might not know about... guess I'll support an explicitly vocal evil corporation!" is quite the loving take. That's the fun part about no ethical consumption in capitalism! I could switch from Chick-fil-A to HappinessBurger, who through several shell companies has overthrown governments and caused thousands of deaths, and people here would cheer that on, because we simply don't know. McDonalds is rumored - no one apparently knows for sure - to use Tyson chicken. I assume that means y'all will call anyone who gets chicken from McDonalds a racist piece of poo poo and directly responsible for dozens of deaths in the last year alone? ... no? I'm REALLY not trying to use this as an excuse to eat CFA, mainly because I don't need one. I'm using it as an example of the pointless virtue signaling at play here, and that is a term I really dislike but it really seems to fit the people who complain about CFA the loudest. Like, it's only gotten them MORE MONEY, so I don't think it's helping in the aggregate. At best you're saving an individual from feeling crappy about contributing a penny to oppression. Good job, nothing of substance changed.
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Jul 15, 2021 19:03
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Ok Comboomer posted:If it’s American U, isn’t that student body pretty chuddy? Like isn’t the joke that American is where wannabe politicos go in DC if Georgetown is too liberal? (or they didn’t get in?) That sounds like a Georgetown joke to me. AU is routinely considered one of the top five most liberal universities in the country, particularly because of its major emphasis on international degrees. The one I live near (Tenleytown) does have AU students, but also has a lot of high school students coming from Wilson, Sidwell Friends, and the other schools in the area. https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/americas-most-liberal-colleges-ranked/50/ Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 19:05
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Golbez posted:I'm not even talking about that. Anyone, any time. Why is someone shopping at a CFA? Do they hate gay people? Do they not know? Does their child work there? Did the location donate to their school? etc. etc. etc. There's thousands of reasons why someone might be at a Chick-fil-A, and "because they hate gay people" is only one of them. I wasn't defending a blanket judgement (of which I agree with you on) - clearly we've all moved on to you and why your justifications for supporting an openly oppressive corp. are really flimsy. But hey at least you're very clearly in the know with what you're doing. The rest of your post is basically just nothing matters garbage.
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Jul 15, 2021 19:06
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Oxyclean posted:Doesn't mean one should throw up their hands and give up any effort of trying to be more ethical. At this point I think I might disagree. I could give up everything and the world would still be poo poo, so why not at least enjoy myself? As I said, sorry my half-penny went to oppress gay people. I'm sure the thousands of dollars I paid in taxes last year didn't cause any issues anywhere.
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Jul 15, 2021 19:06
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Ok Comboomer posted:If it’s American U, isn’t that student body pretty chuddy? Like isn’t the joke that American is where wannabe politicos go in DC if Georgetown is too liberal? (or they didn’t get in?) as a graduate of GWU i feel very attacked by this post
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Jul 15, 2021 19:07
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Golbez posted:At this point I think I might disagree. I could give up everything and the world would still be poo poo, so why not at least enjoy myself? As I said, sorry my half-penny went to oppress gay people. I'm sure the thousands of dollars I paid in taxes last year didn't cause any issues anywhere. Like another poster said, it's in the choices we make when we have alternatives. We can change where our tax money goes by electing different officials. We can change where our dollars go when we choose different companies. It may present certain "hardships" (cooking more instead of eating out more) that you may opt not to do... but don't act like you don't have a choice and are just choosing to not do it.
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Jul 15, 2021 19:10
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Don't cross the picket line. That's really all I have to say, because if respecting a reasonable boycott is too much for you, you are literally useless.
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Jul 15, 2021 19:12
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Guys this discussion is great, but let's limit the personal attacks.
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Jul 15, 2021 19:13
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BonoMan posted:Like another poster said, it's in the choices we make when we have alternatives. We can change where our tax money goes by electing different officials. We can change where our dollars go when we choose different companies. Here's how I'm seeing it: I eat at Chick-fil-A. It turns out to be A Bad Place. So I go to eat at McDonalds. Turns out they are also A Bad Place, because of the aforementioned Tyson connection. So I go to eat at HappinessBurger. They are not a bad place, so far as I know! Happy feelings all around! Except they also use Tyson. Whoops. But I didn't know! So it's okay! So I keep going there, and giving them money, which goes to Tyson which uses it to be murderous, sociopathic monsters towards their Latinx workforce. My point is, yes, I could change, and feel good about it, and not only would nothing of substance change, but I could well be making the world a worse place by now patronizing that other business. And no one would be the wiser. So, go ahead, keep shaming people for eating at CFA. It's the most fundamental example of virtue signaling I think I've seen. You get to feel good about it; nothing changes; and CFA gets more money to spend on anti-gay poo poo. No ethical consumption in capitalism.
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Jul 15, 2021 19:17
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Don't cross the picket line. Yeah, it's worked out so well so far.
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Jul 15, 2021 19:18
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