|
Which should I play as for the Generals Challenge? [Pick 3] This poll is closed. |
|||
|---|---|---|---|
| Laser |
|
60 | 14.74% |
| Air Power |
|
34 | 8.35% |
| Super Weapons |
|
49 | 12.04% |
| Tanks |
|
26 | 6.39% |
| Infantry |
|
39 | 9.58% |
| Nuclear Power |
|
68 | 16.71% |
| Toxin |
|
48 | 11.79% |
| Stealth |
|
42 | 10.32% |
| Explosives |
|
41 | 10.07% |
| Total: | 189 votes | ||
|
Akratic Method posted:Oh, I didn’t realize the poll was for which challenges to do, I thought it was for who you’d play as. If you’re not going to take them all on (understandable, there’s a lot) someone should dig up the maps for the ones we don’t see. Assuming my decades old memory of them each having a custom map is correct, I guess. No, the polls are for which I will play as, so three runs, and should see everyone.
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2021 01:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 21:57 |
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:No, the polls are for which I will play as, so three runs, and should see everyone. Unfortuneatly, two generals don't have maps in the generals challenge, Explosives and Infantry, and neither of them got top three votes
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2021 03:47
|
|
|
mr_stibbons posted:Unfortuneatly, two generals don't have maps in the generals challenge, Explosives and Infantry, and neither of them got top three votes Just means there'll be some multiplayer vids 
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2021 04:07
|
|
|
IIRC the Demo General's map was unfinished in the game files, and has been restored by modders in various ways. He's in the general's Challenge of the Shockwave mod, at least, and it's stupidly hard.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2021 05:10
|
|
|
Magni posted:IIRC the Demo General's map was unfinished in the game files, and has been restored by modders in various ways. He's in the general's Challenge of the Shockwave mod, at least, and it's stupidly hard. Yeah I think the map is mostly functional in the game files, but the map itself is very very plain and reeks of "We were working on this but just didn't have the time to finish". Demolitions and Infantry not being enemies in the Generals Challenge is I think the most blatant example of Zero Hour not being finished. It does have Demo Traps coming out of every pore. That's something, at least.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2021 07:04
|
|
|
Sylphid posted:Yeah I think the map is mostly functional in the game files, but the map itself is very very plain and reeks of "We were working on this but just didn't have the time to finish". Demolitions and Infantry not being enemies in the Generals Challenge is I think the most blatant example of Zero Hour not being finished. Yeah, have seen video of that map and my goodness, its kinda insane and that is saying something. Sadly could not find anything official for the Infantry General, which is a shame. Anyway, RIP NATO I guess. As for this map, yeah it is a very fitting finale, really only hampered by the omnipresent small Generals map size issue. The GLA base to the southeast is actually all fake buildings with boobytraps on them, so if you want to capture them you need to use dozers to clear them first before capturing. Attacks on this general area only come from the bridge and northwest and thus it is easy to defend although the train can flatten your units if you are not careful. Your main base is compact and suffers attacks all across the west and southwest and the early Particle Cannon is nasty. At least the GLA tend to be incredibly slow with building a SCUD Storm as compensation. The USA forces can also hit hard with their top tier units combining with GLA attacks for a nasty one-two punch. Early Helix aggression is also what I always did for this one. With how soft the USA and GLA bases are to their respective souths, you can cause a ton of damage with very careful strikes with your Helix's, with more added on as you can afford them. Going for a pure ground push is extremely not advised, especially vs the GLA base due to the terrain and tons o anti-ground units and Demo Traps. Once you get Nukes up and running however, the two bases days are extremely numbered as both, especially the USA base, have many key buildings extremely clustered together and thus just begging to be taken out via General Powers and Super Weapons. Still, a quite solid cap off in my book, even if the entire premise of the latter GLA and entire China campaign, including the ending is just utterly insane. As for units, the ECM Tank is incredibly good and a godsend for China's arsenal. Having a counter to Scorpion Rockets alpha strikes and the dreaded Rocketvee is a game changer and it being able to also pull its weight in combat and shut down enemy ground vehicles is icing. If you are going to have a China ground army, you are going to want a few of these with it, no ifs, ands, or buts. The Internet Center is also greatly appreciated and vastly helps with the whole Hacker protection issue. It being tough enough to withstand a Super Weapon strike more then justifies its high cost. The two Internet Hacks are very nice, with One letting you keep tabs on things around your opponents Command Center, and Two is perfect to see what is coming your way. Two going off every four minutes also doesn't give a warning, like with the USA Strategy Center. And now the utterly wonderful General's Challenge, the real meat of Zero Hour. Good luck with it, really can't wait to see how you deal with... certain ones in it. Heh, heh, heh...
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2021 08:48
|
|
|
I found a speedrun of the laser general running generals challenge. That was certainly something to watch.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2021 01:15
|
|
|
General's Challenge 01: Laser General Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0jmTQ-BHs4 General's Challenge 01: Laser General Part 1  The General's Challenge is a series of missions that follow the same basic theme - What if you fought a specific General from one of the three factions? Each of these Generals brings their own pros and cons, with the challenge being how one deals with them using their own special sub-faction.  N/A  Location: Unknown Objective: Destroy all non-defensive structures. Author's note: Both Granger and Kwai are easy opponents for the Laser General option, both being countered heavily thanks to Avengers, Laser Turrets, and Rocket Defenders.   Name: Malcolm Granger Aliases: Ace Affiliation: USA Occupation: 4-Star General Voiced/Played by: Tim Devitt / Gregg Berger The General of the Air Force, Malcolm "Ace" Granger is the specialist for his branch. Focusing entirely on air power, Granger's forces lack staying power on the ground - though his opponents should all beware the improved variants of both units and General powers.  Name: Ta Hun Kwai Aliases: Nona Affiliation: China Occupation: General Class AAA Voiced/Played by: Michael Bell Kwai is the Armoured specialist for the China Army, choosing to eschew infantry or nuclear power. His opponents quickly learn to respect his armored forces, or be crushed under their tracks!  N/A Aftermath: N/A
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 04:01
|
|
|
Kinda love the thick-rear end lenses on the laser general.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 04:21
|
|
|
Townes has the best tank in the game in the Laser Crusader (statswise). Of course it needs power, but it'll slaughter most ground armour once it reaches a critical mass. Laser Crusaders can beat the Chinese tank general quite handily if you give them anti-infantry cover (they can kill infantry but shouldn't, it's a waste of their gun). Townes also suffered the usual Generals curse of being heavily cut back. He has a whole raft of incomplete and unused units, some of which can be easily reactivated - pretty much ALL his units had laser weapons, including rocket troopers that use lasers instead, laser-armed Commanches, laser-armed Humvees, a laser-armed Colonel Burton(!) and a special cheaper version of the Particle Cannon that fires more often and uses less power. Some of these aren't anywhere near complete, but others (including the Laser Cannon structure) work just fine and can be placed in the level editor. It's clear Townes was intended to be all-in on direct-fire weapons. A shame we didn't get to see him as envisaged; as he appears in-game he's very powerful with his laser Crusader (alas, the planned laser Paladin was cut).
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 04:27
|
|
|
So, Granger, the aircraft general, requires a lot of anti-air, and in particular, AA that isn't rocket based. A small group of Granger's fighters will be all but immune to rocket based attacks due to overlapping point defense, so bullets or lasers are really loving important here. Patriot missile batteries and stinger sites in particular are going to be pretty useless when 3+ king raptors come around. Kwai meanwhile is just, yeah, how many tanks can you deal with. In MP at least you can deal with him by taking advantage of his weaknesses and treating it like advance wars, just firing tons of artillery into choke points, since his only responses are either overpriced Migs or helixes, or just send even more tanks and hope that numbers wins the day (they probably won't). Unfortunately the challenge map is meant to show his strengths as much as possible, so flat ground with no choke points that he doesn't already control it is.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 06:10
|
|
|
Ahh the Generals Challenge. Sent sooo much time on this mode back in the day. Townes is a good pick with his lethal Laser Tanks and incredibly powerful Laser Turrets and he can handle most situations pretty well. The power drain situation with his tanks can be an issue if your power goes down suddenly but as long as it is on, they can easily tear other ground units apart with frankly scary ease and can melt infantry. Backed up with Rocket-vees and cheaper Avengers and you have a nasty little fighting force. One major thing is that each map tries to maximize the opposing General's strength, so vs Granger, your area of the map has limited supplies, an exposed derrick up front, and limited build space, making it hard to properly defend from his insane air units while also making it hard for you to take advantage of having a better ground army via the narrow bridge and mountain fortress Granger's base is in. He does actually have very little right at the start so a cheeky alpha strike via Chinook drop can cause some havoc but once he gets rolling, only lasers and bullet-based AA can do anything thanks to his point defense lasers and even those can be overwhelmed by mass numbers and AOE from his General Powers and need to be replaced a fair amount. Once you can crack his base he falls very quickly though, and he never builds a Particle Cannon so its all air units and General Powers. All in all, it is a very front-loaded fight, where either you get wiped out early or hold on long enough to build a stable defense and roll from there. Kwai, as said, is super simple in comparison. You have wide flat land with little natural defense, face a ton of tanks with scattered infantry and air thrown in here and there, and have various hard to defend tech buildings scattered around. His base has a very nasty layout that makes using Super Weapons and whatnot against it frustrating and has tons of Gatling Turrets and Propaganda Towers by each building cluster, slowing down any attack further. He also will active his Nuke Silo either when you get some Super Weapons up or over time, can't exactly remember which but in general that shouldn't be to big a threat as it is the front part of his base and thus more open to various means of being destroyed. If you don't use mass Super Weapons to kill his base, a strong long-range siege force with heavy anti-armor defense can crack it, but honestly just super weaponing/air striking when the power is down is far simpler. Looking forward to the VS Super Weapon General though. Dealing with her was bad enough on normal, on hard I can only imagine the pain and was the reason I often picked her, just so I wouldn't have to deal with facing her. UED Special Ops fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Jan 2, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 06:58
|
|
|
If anyone doesn't mind spoilers, about a month ago the European Speedrunner Assembly posted a commentated run of this on hard with the laser general. It highlights a lot of what has been said re: hard mode, while showing off the occasional cheese. I'd recommend giving it a watch.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 09:00
|
|
|
Loxbourne posted:Townes has the best tank in the game in the Laser Crusader (statswise). Of course it needs power, but it'll slaughter most ground armour once it reaches a critical mass. Laser Crusaders can beat the Chinese tank general quite handily if you give them anti-infantry cover (they can kill infantry but shouldn't, it's a waste of their gun). I wonder if a lot of his stuff was cut for balance reasons. ECMs would be rendered completely ineffective by lasers and, if the Crusader is anything to go by, GLA stuff would just get torn to shreds by other laser-based units as well. Not to mention the fact lasers hit instantly, instead of missiles you could potentially dodge / shoot down. As it stands, he's basically just vUSA with a better tank / no artillery. But, as for his viability in competitive play, he does just fine, because you rarely see Tomahawks used in serious play and vUSA is a strong faction. Just as a side note, the vanilla Crusader actually is a very good unit in this game. Unlike the Scorpion or even somewhat the Battlemaster, it's pretty no frills but it's a really solid unit. This is, of course, helped by the fact Composite Armor applies twice to vanilla Crusaders, turning a Crusader army into a very hearty composition. It certainly puts the Paladin in a very awkward position, but I think the reason a lot of players overlook Crusaders is because they're so standard, but they stack up pretty well against every piece of armor in this game. Sylphid fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Jan 2, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 10:49
|
|
|
Do Laser Tanks require extra power per unit or do you just need to be in the green like the Yuri's Revenge Robot Tanks?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 11:18
|
|
|
Manic_Misanthrope posted:Do Laser Tanks require extra power per unit or do you just need to be in the green like the Yuri's Revenge Robot Tanks? One Power per tank. If your power drops to red the tanks are disabled until you get power again. Course Townes has better power plants so it is pretty easy to make sure you have a healthy buffer, and Laser Crusaders shred any ground unit once they get even moderate numbers. And as for cut stuff, ohhh boy does Zero Hour have a ton of that, especially in the Generals Challenge, which is flat out missing maps for the Infantry and Demo Generals, and something else I can't say until after this first challenge is complete, plus most Generals have various things scrapped, some of which probably for balance reasons, others almost surely 100% due to time, like Townes's unique Laser Particle Cannon.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 11:44
|
|
|
UED Special Ops posted:One Power per tank. If your power drops to red the tanks are disabled until you get power again. Course Townes has better power plants so it is pretty easy to make sure you have a healthy buffer, and Laser Crusaders shred any ground unit once they get even moderate numbers. And as for cut stuff, ohhh boy does Zero Hour have a ton of that, especially in the Generals Challenge, which is flat out missing maps for the Infantry and Demo Generals, and something else I can't say until after this first challenge is complete, plus most Generals have various things scrapped, some of which probably for balance reasons, others almost surely 100% due to time, like Townes's unique Laser Particle Cannon. That kinda sucks...
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 17:57
|
|
|
It's not all bad, he gets 8 power to vanilla's 5 per plant, so with control rods in place one extra plant can support 16 tanks and you can set up the usual amenities with fewer plants. It sounds a lot worse on paper than it actually is. The big thing is that all of his tanks shutting down on low power means his power plants are a weak spot to be protected against a human that can exploit that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 18:04
|
|
|
I feel like I never really got Townes. He feels to me too close to the base USA faction. Paladin tanks feel a bit redundant with the introduction of the avenger in ZH, and not having tomahawks isn't a big loss. There's nothing really forcing you to move off the strengths of the base USA faction-like rockvees and your airforce, but you also have a much better early ground force and better power plants. It would be a more interesting general if he kept tomahawks, but lost some of his air force, making him a more ground focused general. I know that was the gimmik of one of the cut USA generals, but when they cut him they could have made that Townes' shtick.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 21:35
|
|
|
Something you mentioned in the video is really a great summary of this mode - it's fun, it's really cool, but also the scenarios and generals are a little too one-note. You really are pushed into finding a specific method and just repeating it, so the full challenge can get a bit stale by the end. also high five particle cannon sniping builder units buddy  on the other hand it's still pretty good value for content; nine one-note generals is still nine different runs at the challenge, but it rides that edge of 'okay this is maybe a little too long' especially on higher difficulties where, say, you're going to be shooting down about 300 King Raptors and Stealth Comanches just to have the time to knock back Granger. tl;dr it's a good mode, but maybe don't do all of them in a row without breaks Psion fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jan 2, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2022 23:18
|
|
|
I recently got the hankering for Generals again and reinstalled it with the Shockwave mod. Just been doing skirmishes, but I know there's an addon that lets you play both games campaigns with the new stuff integrated, might give that a try.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2022 05:38
|
|
|
Psion posted:Something you mentioned in the video is really a great summary of this mode - it's fun, it's really cool, but also the scenarios and generals are a little too one-note. You really are pushed into finding a specific method and just repeating it, so the full challenge can get a bit stale by the end. also high five particle cannon sniping builder units buddy Agreed, although at least Townes is far less one-note as your commander in the General's Challenge then many others, like say the Infantry General which is just mass Bunker Helix everything to death or the Super Weapon General *won't spoil her gimmicks but the name is a solid clue to her main strat.* The bigger shame is the two missing Generals from the challenge as well as other cut things from it which would have made it not quite as stale on repeated playthroughs. mr_stibbons posted:I feel like I never really got Townes. He feels to me too close to the base USA faction. Paladin tanks feel a bit redundant with the introduction of the avenger in ZH, and not having tomahawks isn't a big loss. There's nothing really forcing you to move off the strengths of the base USA faction-like rockvees and your airforce, but you also have a much better early ground force and better power plants. Townes suffered MASSIVLY from being cut down from the original plan for him being laser-everything, which would have greatly changed him up vs the vanilla USA faction. He isn't the only one to suffer this as well, but as far as I know, from what has been shown off, neither the Air Force nor Tank General really suffered too much chopping as deadlines neared, at least not as much as some others.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2022 08:13
|
|
|
UED Special Ops posted:
Apparently AFG was originally meant to have a "Hypersonic Aurora" which would have been an Aurora with an equivalent payload of a Bomb Truck, which is insane. Someone at some point in development must have realized Granger is already really really good and nixed that. Also from what I heard, Kwai was meant to have a double-barrelled Gatling Tank, which would have been interesting to see and also, probably a bit OP. Other than that, yeah, I don't either general saw the axe too much.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2022 12:34
|
|
|
Sylphid posted:Apparently AFG was originally meant to have a "Hypersonic Aurora" which would have been an Aurora with an equivalent payload of a Bomb Truck, which is insane. Someone at some point in development must have realized Granger is already really really good and nixed that. Huh, interesting. 100% can see how an Auroa with an even nastier payload AND point defense lasers to counter its slow-rear end return speed would be a tad too much on top of his already incredible air force. The Kawi thing is interesting though, flat out never heard of that one. Man, even with all of its baggage Generals is up there with Tiberian Sun/Firestorm with what could have been. *sigh*
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2022 08:07
|
|
|
Oh, and since you mentioned patches changing aspects of the game, Granger got hit with one of the more notable nerfs in one of the patches. Originally, his Carpet Bomb was deployed straight from the Strategy Center. You *might* have needed the Command Center as well. I forget. After that particular patch, you need the Strategy Center *and* a Generals Point to unlock it, which made that particular ability a little more fair. It doesn't really matter if a game goes long, though, since Granger's support powers are pretty much far and away the best in the game. For 7 Generals points, you can get Pathfinders, Scout Drone, level 1 A-10, Spectre, Fuel Air Bomb / MOAB, Carpet Bomb, and Leaflet Drop, or some arrangement thereof. It really is death from above for him. Stealth Comanches were my favorite unit in the game, since a group of them can hit soft targets like artillery, then run away and cloak before anti-air can rally against them. Basically the only negative for him is not having tanks if your opponent is using a lot of ECMs, but that certainly is not a foolproof strategy. Think it's pretty fairly said he's the strongest faction in the game. Also the Prima guide you referenced is a little misleading; Granger still has regular Chinooks, it's just he can get Combat Chinooks on top of them by having a War Factory first. They're built from the Supply Center, just like the regular ones. Basically a flying Battle Bus with PDLs. Again, it is pretty fairly said he's the strongest in the game. Sylphid fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jan 4, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2022 22:02
|
|
|
One bit of military nerd trivia: if you keep blowing up Granger's airfields, he resorts to begging for help from the Navy via a carrier somewhere off-map.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2022 22:29
|
|
|
Yesss it's time. I can't believe I'm late, gently caress me. The Generals Challenge is really interesting, designwise, because it plays completely differently to normal C&C one-on-one. Generals is a very rush-heavy game, but because the AI starts with prebuilt bases, rushing them in any way is very, very difficult. Instead you're going to, at least for a while, be forced to take it on the chin from the opposing General and then start counterattacking, which is usually how I play anyway, but I never claimed to be good at this game. The challenge is supposed to pit you against all the other 8 generals and then one more, but as mentioned, two of the generals aren't implemented due to cut content -- the Infantry General, Fai, and the Demolitions General, Juhziz. So if you pick either of those, you fight 7 generals, and all the rest of them fight only 6. Which is kind of disappointing. This can get rote as observed since the bases really demand to be tackled in specific ways, but since each general has a different kit, there's 8 possible ways you can show up having to fight them, meaning that even without hampering yourself, the General's Challenge can provide 55 different types of challenge using just 8 maps, without even changing the difficulty. It is really not worth playing this mode on Easy, sadly, because on Easy the enemy will barely produce anything and be very passive. What's also a shame is that the ramp up to Normal is dramatic, to the point where it feels like there should be another difficulty level between the two. Some of these generals just on Normal -- including Kwai -- will put you under an effectively constant, nonstop amount of pressure. It's a lot of fun. I have a ton to say about all of these guys, but I'm going to hold off until we run into them (excepting Fai and Juhziz, who I'll figure out what to say about them somewhere). EDIT: Also, one other thing about the General's Challenge is that the AI just will not build new buildings or bases. These aren't true one-on-one matches with AI edge, they're designed to be basically puzzles you decipher. The AI will replace its existing buildings but not expand to new places (well... we'll get to that). This works out better for some of them than others -- as observed, Granger really should be expanding to take advantage of those oil derricks and better secure his supply, and that he doesn't is a major reason why he's kind of a one-shot-wonder. As for why the Generals allow you the starting setup time, it seems pretty clear that the Challenge isn't part of the normal setting as shown in the campaign. The US generals are based in places where it'd basically be impossible for an opponent to reach in this neat and tidy manner, for instance, and the GLA generals are being real cooperative in ways the campaign GLA never is. I think it's really meant to be exactly what it looks like on the surface -- some kind of challenge, a series of war games exercises or something, which escalate all the way up because this is Command and Conquer and there is no such thing as brakes in any of these universes. That or it's all simulated, and you get the full bore view to keep you from taking it lightly. Cythereal posted:One bit of military nerd trivia: if you keep blowing up Granger's airfields, he resorts to begging for help from the Navy via a carrier somewhere off-map. And it shows up, too! That voice bark coincides with a bunch of King Raptors immediately showing up from the top side of the map and flying into his base area, which can be nasty if you've already gotten beaten up on the way in by his deathball of Comanches. Redeye Flight fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jan 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2022 23:27
|
|
|
GENERAL MALCOLM "ACE" GRANGER, USA AIR FORCEC&C Generals: Zero Hour Manual posted:The son of an Iowa crop duster, General Malcolm Granger's flying career began at the age of 12, when he borrowed his father's biplane to go to the state fair in Kansas City. As a lieutenant in the First Iraq War, Granger earned his first notices for knocking out four SAMs in a single afternoon. As he moved up the Air Force ranks, Granger earned a reputation for advancing the role of fighting aircraft in the U.S. military. God I love Granger. Since I first picked up this game, Granger has been my favorite general. I love screwing around with the air force and I love sending flight after flight of Raptors at the enemy. Granger's ground game sucks, and his defensive game is also not that great since he only gets the default USA defenses. This is fine, because Granger's offensive game is loving terrifying. As relatively easy as his scenario is to handle, it captures this very well -- if you do not properly respect Granger's air game he will murder the poo poo out of you. + All aircraft around 20% cheaper + All aircraft (except Comanche) outfitted with PDLs + King Raptor replaces Raptor + Combat Chinook unlocked + Stealth Comanche upgrade unlocked + Stealth Fighter available without spending General Point + Absolutely disgusting General Powers loadout - All vehicles 20% more expensive - Cannot build Crusader or Paladin Tanks The negatives basically explain themselves; Granger's ground game is for poo poo. He can still build Rockvees if you really wanna, but you don't wanna. You have better options. The discount adds up really fast, especially when you consider that Granger can build regular Chinooks, meaning he can ramp Chinooks better than any other USA commander. The PDLs are also very important, because while they won't do poo poo to gun-based AA like the Quad Cannon or the Gatling Tank, they protect from a TON of possible threats to aircraft. Granger's planes can actually fly into Patriot and Stinger lines with near-impunity, which nobody else can claim, and the enemy has to work a little harder to snipe his supply lines. His Auroras can get out on their return run alive! Which is good because they still cost 2000 freakin' dollars. 500 bucks off is no joke, but still. The King Raptor is even more that. The King Raptor gets two PDLs! Shooting missiles at a King Raptor is wasting your drat time. It's actually no tougher than the normal Raptor healthwise, but it's cheaper because Granger, it carries six missiles instead of four, it's effectively tougher with the PDLs, it detects stealth for God's sake, it reloads way faster on landing so your cycle time between strikes is faster, it's disgusting. Only the Raptor's damage nerf versus base defenses keeps it from being able to do all that and also make breakfast. But, hey, Granger gets the Stealth Fighter gratis! That thing handles base defenses real nice and it's a much more palatable option when you aren't spending a General Point on it. The Combat Chinook costs regular Chinook dollars, but in exchange is a Bus in the air, which can also haul supplies if you're not doing anything else with it at that moment. It is not THAT much tougher than the regular Chinook so you can't just barnstorm them into places without thinking, but if you make sure they're not going to get waxed immediately by AA then these things can do horrifying damage -- two Pathfinders and six Missile Troopers is a lot of firepower, and it still has that PDL. You can also cheat with it, because if you load a loaded Humvee into a Combat Chinook, then the Humvee's troops can ALSO fire out of the Chinook. So you can get twelve troops in one CC. Which is a terrifying level of concentrated firepower, but is also a LOT of eggs in one basket, since you're losing twelve dudes and two Humvees along with the Chinook if it gets shot down. The Stealth Comanche is arguably the most dangerous part, though. Giving Comanches stealth majorly blunts their one major weakness, their fragility. Since you can fire Rocket Pods out of stealth, a Stealth Comanche deathball can instantly annihilate just about anything it wants provided it can stay cloaked until opening fire. Since they're also cheaper than normal, as Granger you'll be using Comanches for early patrol instead of the usual stuff -- the extra expense being made up for by their crazy mobility, so fewer of them can do more work. They won't engage anything on their own anymore, though, so you'll have to actually give them orders, but if you're playing Granger then you're already expecting a lot of plane micromanagement. Overall, Granger is disgusting, and he plays really well to the strengths of the USA in general. General Malcom "Ace" Granger General (4-star), U.S. Air Force Fort Belmont, Houston, Texas Laser / Infantry / CENSORED 1 CENSORED / CENSORED 2 CENSORED 3 Demolitions 4 CENSORED 6 (The general types were named in the poll, but revealing the order would be a marginal spoiler for the other runs that are planned, so I'll edit these back in later. See, the General's Challenge has a different order for each General, approximately starting you off against the opponent you'll have the easiest time dealing with and ending with the hardest. Your mileage may vary on this, but you can usually see the reasoning as to why. Granger gets the #1 slot more than anyone else because he's definitely the easiest to take down provided you can actually survive his first shot and get to his base.) Granger's scenario is designed to highlight his offense -- his base is barely defended and is disturbingly power-marginal, and his income ain't great. If you can survive his initial attack, he has a very hard time working back up to that level of strength. This is still a big, big If, because that initial attack is nasty, and if he starts taking out crucial buildings in the initial strike because you weren't prepared for him, he'll just keep going. He also doesn't need that many ground defenses because, as a proper Granger player would, he keeps a huge swarm of Stealth Comanches hovering around his in-base supply area which will swarm out and annihilate threats that approach, which I always forget about and don't prepare well enough for. Granger will also absolutely follow through on his threats -- if you take out his Command Center or enough of his Airfields, he will immediately send everything he has at you. At that point it's probably not much, but he'll do it. Granger himself is described as “even-tempered yet uncompromising”, and this is an accurate description. While he’ll do his share of taunting, Granger never panics or noticeably overreacts to anything you do -- the most agitated he’ll get is a revenge strike if you blow up too many of his Airfields, and the most nervous he’ll give you is a half-joke about “calling it a draw” if you take down his power. Without revealing too much, this is an interesting contrast to his contemporaries among the Generals. One thing you lose out on with the sped-up footage is the voice work, which is sad but there's not really a good alternative considering how long these missions are. All of the Generals have a ton of great lines, and you can tell their VAs were having a blast with this mode, because they smack-talk you constantly. It's a big part of what makes it so memorable. It doesn't matter how much I've prepared, that "Ready or not, here I come!" when Granger launches his first attack still makes my stomach sink every time. Redeye Flight fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jan 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 00:16
|
|
|
General's Spotlight #1: General Granger Name: Malcolm Granger Aliases: Ace Affiliation: USA Occupation: 4-Star General Voiced/Played by: Tim Devitt / Gregg Berger The General of the Air Force, Malcolm "Ace" Granger is the specialist for his branch. Focusing entirely on air power, Granger's forces lack staying power on the ground - though his opponents should all beware the improved variants of both units and General powers. Bio posted:The son of an Iowa crop duster, General Malcolm Granger’s flying career began when he borrowed his father’s biplane to go to the state fair in Kansas City. As a lieutenant in the First Iraq War, Granger earned his first notices for knocking out four SAM sites in a single afternoon. As he moved up the Air Force ranks, Granger earned a reputation for advancing the role of fighting aircraft in the US military. Even-tempered yet uncompromising, Granger has developed novel techniques in fuel management and resource deployment during air superiority operations. Those techniques have been used with success in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other theaters. His squadrons are known for precision execution and a strong will to What's changed? Well, there's a few things, much like every other General we will eventually see, and I'll be going off the wikis because I don't have patch notes and its just easier that way... General Upgrades/Changes -All aircraft are 10% Cheaper A Raptor for 1100 instead of 1400? Chinooks for 950 instead of 1200? 2000 instead of 2500 for an Aurora? Yes, please! -All aircraft have a point defense laser (exception Comanche) Free defense against missiles, making any counter that isn't instant less powerful. This also, from what I can tell, stacks with Countermeasures, for even higher defense! Strangely, these two upgrades also apply to the MOAB's B-3 Bomber, but NOT the Spectre Gunship. -King Raptor replaces Raptor The King Raptor is a straight upgrade of the regular version, attacking from farther away, reloading faster, and dealing more damage. As if that wasn't enough, the King Raptor sports 2 more missiles to unload on any unfortunate target, and comes equipped with a pair of Point Defense Lasers. -Combat Chinook Costing as much as a non-Granger Chinook (1200), the Combat variant's only true difference is that it's infantry passengers can fire from above. The applications of some snipers, rocket soldiers, and a Burton are imaginative, but Chinooks are never entirely safe, and the Combat Chinook does not appear to have a higher level of armor. -Stealth Comanches $1500 (The wiki also states $1000) to make all your Comanches invisible? That's the only change to them, but hell that's more than enough! -Stealth Fighter available at game start Pretty simple, no more General Point cost to it. Sure. -Carpet Bombing available once Strategy Center is built The only non-Chinese General to get this power, the wiki states it strikes with the faster B-3 bomber, as well as carrying a larger payload (a.k.a. longer string of bombs). -Emergency Repair available earlier A cheap and fast way to repair aircraft as they return home, instead of waiting for them to repair "normally". I can appreciate the change. -Cannot build Paladins or Crusader Tanks Lacking any sort of tank means that Granger is a real softie on the ground, and suffers from hard counters. -Humvee, Ambulances, and Tomahawk Launchers cost more I can't find any information on this in the wiki... Despite all of Granger's positives, he kind of gets hard countered by Quad Cannons, Avengers, and Gatling Tanks. The only thing Avengers can't do is attack a base by themselves, but, in sufficient numbers, are virtually immune to all Granger's aircraft. The other, and arguably greater, problem, comes in the form of the need for a number of airfields, which are IMMENSE and hard to place. They are also fragile and targets for attacks, although we'll see more of that later, indirectly. Manual Entries King Raptor The first generation of Raptors proved to be thin-skinned fighters. Engine modifications have allowed the King Raptor to carry a sturdier fuselage and better ammunition. Combat Chinook In the previous campaigns against the GLA, Chinooks did not fare well. Lacking defenses, the Chinook often was lost behind enemy lines, requiring rescue operations to recover any survivors. The Combat Chinook has side portals to allow passengers to target threats on the ground. Requires the Supply Center and War Factory to build. Stealth Comanche Upgrade Comanche helicopters can be upgraded with stealth capabilities. Carpet Bomber This calls in a B3 aircraft to carpet bomb the targeted area. The Carpet Bomber requires that you first build a Stategy Center, from which the Carpet Bomber is deployed. quote:ARMY MODIFICATIONS Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jan 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 00:53
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 00:54
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure Granger doesn't get any vehicle cost penalty. Might be confusing him with a general we have yet to fight. That's part of the reason he's so good.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 01:10
|
|
|
Sylphid posted:I'm pretty sure Granger doesn't get any vehicle cost penalty. Might be confusing him with a general we have yet to fight. That's part of the reason he's so good. Oh I know who gets it, but its strange that the wiki mentions this for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 01:13
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:Oh I know who gets it, but its strange that the wiki mentions this for some reason. Might have been the idea at some point. Kinda reeks of "We meant to have this reflected in the game, but it just never was" you'll see occasionally even in strategy guides that work off almost-final games.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 01:18
|
|
|
Ahahaha Jesus that was bad timing. Sorry about that. I won't do any more of those on that level.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 01:21
|
|
|
Redeye Flight posted:Ahahaha Jesus that was bad timing. Sorry about that. I won't do any more of those on that level. Nah it's all good . So long as there's no spoilers; I can't pretend to be an arbiter of all C&C knowledge.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 01:29
|
|
|
I'll also say that while I said 10% up there, anyone can tell that that's not actually true and I'm not sure where I read that or got it from. Granger's discounts are not actually a consistent percentage -- the closest thing they're actually consistent to is a 20% discount across the board, with some being a little more than that and getting into weird arcane percentages. It's never less than $250 off. Again, that's big, and it adds up fast because aircraft are so expensive. You particularly notice it with the discount on Chinooks, since Granger can have four for every three that any other USA general gets, or just get to three faster, and replace them more easily. He still doesn't want to have to do so a lot because the drat things still aren't CHEAP, and he's spending a lot of money on his planes, but it's not the huge $1200 pain that it is for everyone else.
Redeye Flight fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jan 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 01:44
|
|
|
In multiplayer, Granger actually gets even better since his main supposed weakness - no tanks - doesn't come into play at all. No one really builds the US tanks unless they're playing as Townes.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 02:49
|
|
|
One thing, mechanically, I think should be noted is that, although the generals are considered subfactions of the main three, as far as the game is concerned, there are technically about 15 factions in the game, including three special ones. Two of the special ones we've actually seen before, in USA X5 and GLA X2; the Dr. Thrax we saw in the USA campaign seems to be working off an earlier build of the Toxin General, and you can prove this by clicking on that enemy's RPG Troopers (they're using a totally different portrait). Likewise, the Stealth General in GLA X2 has an additional upgrade icon for *his* Quad Cannons that you cannot buy but was scrapped sometime in the game's development. This is the only time those Quad Cannons or RPG Troopers will appear in the final game. What does this mean as far the game's normal mechanics go? Well, it means that if you capture an AFG or Tank Command Center, the Dozers built from them will have access to that general's entire tech tree, such as AFG Airfields (leading to King Raptors and the like) or Tank's War Factory, which includes the cheaper and vetted up tanks, even if you started as a totally different faction. It's definitely nice that doing such a thing won't lead you to building generic USA or China Dozers. Of course, you won't have access to Generals Point-exclusive stuff, like Kwai's Tank Drops or Granger's Carpet Bombing, but hey, that would open up a whole can of worms mechanically if that was a thing you could do. I think common upgrades, like Laser-Guided Missiles or Flashbangs, do carry over across factions, though. Sylphid fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jan 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 02:51
|
|
|
Redeye Flight posted:You can also cheat with it, because if you load a loaded Humvee into a Combat Chinook, then the Humvee's troops can ALSO fire out of the Chinook. This is a hilarious mental image.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 02:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 21:57 |
|
|
One thing that's very interesting, and we'll see more of it as we get further along in the Challenge, is that the General's Challenge is actually quite good at subtly teaching you how to play the various kits in it. That's why it's there, after all, but this goes beyond just "run this gauntlet of tests to prove you know what you're doing". The enemy generals themselves are basically telling you how they work as you fight them. This isn't just mechanical, either, it even extends to their personality and dialogue -- sometimes they'll actually make explicit statements, but even just their demeanor, the ways they react, how they behave, is all basically in line with how they do things. Take Kwai. Kwai is an aggressive blowhard who actively disregards defense in favor of constant, multidirectional, multifaceted attack, with the occasional "Tanks amass in our base, preparing for the final assault! Will your defenses hold this time? Hm?". This is pretty much exactly how the Tank kit plays -- it has nothing standout on defense that every other China kit doesn't get, it has mobility in spades, and it has plentiful options for attack that are cheap, work better en masse, and are definitely better at hitting things than getting hit themselves. "I'm impressed, General. Few survive this long." Meanwhile, Granger is kind of mocking you from up on top of Mount Olympus as he chucks thunderbolts at your face. It's all about attack, and it's about targeted attack, too -- one of his lines is specifically about "hunting dozers", which the Raptor and King Raptor are built for. He never completely loses his cool because he really, really can't afford to with all this goddamn micro, even when his power goes down -- which doesn't cripple him as bad since his planes don't need it once they're built. He also has to order things around for defense, because ultimately nothing he can build static is as strong as his planes and 'copters are. Sylphid posted:One thing, mechanically, I think should be noted is that, although the generals are considered subfactions of the main three, as far as the game is concerned, there are technically about 15 factions in the game, including three special ones. Two of the special ones we've actually seen before, in USA X5 and GLA X2; the Dr. Thrax we saw in the USA campaign seems to be working off an earlier build of the Toxin General, and you can prove this by clicking on that enemy's RPG Troopers (they're using a totally different portrait). Likewise, the Stealth General in GLA X2 has an additional upgrade icon for *his* Quad Cannons that you cannot buy but was scrapped sometime in the game's development. This is the only time those Quad Cannons or RPG Troopers will appear in the final game. Yeah, this part is really cool even if its applications are incredibly limited. The whole point of going to the extreme trouble of capturing someone's command center or dozer instead of just going in harder on killing them is because you want to play with their toys, and this lets you make sure you can play with even their SPECIAL toys. The Lone Badger posted:This is a hilarious mental image. I haven't actually done it myself, only been told it can be done, but yeah, it's wild. Also, while the troops can fire out, the Humvees themselves can't! Not that you're going to NEED it if you're doing this, annihilating poo poo with ten rockets and two snipers, but it's another weird aspect to the whole thing. Redeye Flight fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Jan 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2022 04:38
|
|