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fool of sound posted:Not really. "Wipe out the ruling class and install one loyal to us but keep all the farmers in place" is a strategy as old as conquest. I think what makes W's efforts stand out historically is the combination of how dumb, evil and incompetent they were, and how those aspects all just run together to where you can't tell where one ends and the other begins. Just like with Vietnam, you have (ostensibly) ambitious goals for democracy, reform, rebuilding, all that poo poo, but there's never a realistic plan or appropriate resources relative to the insanely big goals on paper to get there, plus a huge chunk of it looks suspiciously like a chain of interlocking rackets powered by mutilating teenagers and it's all bullshit anyway. And that prick did two of them almost simultaneously! gently caress!
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Aug 16, 2021 01:24
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i'm thankful this event is something that can be leveraged to dickstomp some of the attempted rehabilitation of the GWB administration. this is the ultimate capstone on their legacy: the taliban won, and 9/11 succeeded, it cost us trillions, nobody likes the war and everyone sees how badly it failed
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Aug 16, 2021 01:30
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How likely is it that the U.S. will intentionally use biological warfare and spread Covid 19 or fund terrorist groups to destabilize the country as a way to try to contain perceived threats to the U.S. empire (Iran, Russia & China)? They helped the Taliban to fight the Soviets. Are they going to fund ISIS or other extremist groups to fight the Taliban and the countries that neighbor Afghanistan?
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Aug 16, 2021 01:30
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ted hitler hunter posted:How likely is it that the U.S. will intentionally use biological warfare and spread Covid 19 What? You probably named the only bad thing they WON'T ever do lol Not the least because bio weapons can just end up back in your own country way too easy and our vaccination rates for COVID19 are poo poo.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:32
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https://twitter.com/whatismoo/status/1426939056970244103?s=20
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Aug 16, 2021 01:32
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Knightsoul posted:20 years..... 20 loving years. Same here. I was just eight when all of this started, and it’s still loving with me just how quickly they reasserted themselves once they had the opportunity. Millions killed either as a direct result or as a knock-on effect of all of the conflicts this one war started. Once more, I ask: Why were we there, again?
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Aug 16, 2021 01:38
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Regalingualius posted:Same here. I was just eight when all of this started, and it’s still loving with me just how quickly they reasserted themselves once they had the opportunity. this downfall has actually been happening since late 2017, with large series of regional control collapses compounded by the interim government never being developed internally to a state at which it was either 1. not corrupt, 2. not incapable, 3. held in faith of governance by any minimum sustainable threshold of the national population we just managed to not hear a lot about it because the war had been on for over a decade and by that point there was no real public attention to the matter of afghanistan. we just didn't care. the entire nation hated this war
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Aug 16, 2021 01:46
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IMO Hobbes was right and 90% of stable governments at peace are better and more desirable than 90% of civil wars no matter what horrible abuses they are committing. Note that Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan don’t count here because they in fact started aggressive wars, something that is strangely downplayed in neocon rhetoric. This seems like it should be pretty uncontroversial statement but it still in TYOOL 2021 causes many many liberals to freak out and scream tankie
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Aug 16, 2021 01:55
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Regalingualius posted:Same here. I was just eight when all of this started, and it’s still loving with me just how quickly they reasserted themselves once they had the opportunity. Millions killed either as a direct result or as a knock-on effect of all of the conflicts this one war started. Once more, I ask: Looking back on it, who was going to stop us? Soviets were gone and our system and way of life was the default way to do things. Afghanistan was a dick waving contest, just like it was for the Soviets before. 20 years later, we have genuine geopolitical foes that are conventional, but if we didn’t, the occupation would have just continued. People stopped caring about this war a loooooong time ago when we all realized there is 0 exit plans even feasible.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:56
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icantfindaname posted:IMO Hobbes was right and 90% of stable governments at peace are better and more desirable than 90% of civil wars no matter what horrible abuses they are committing.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:00
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Aug 16, 2021 02:02
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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http://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/status/1425809627447500815 Hot take alert
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Aug 16, 2021 02:06
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Aug 16, 2021 02:09
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icantfindaname posted:IMO Hobbes was right and 90% of stable governments at peace are better and more desirable than 90% of civil wars no matter what horrible abuses they are committing. Note that Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan don’t count here because they in fact started aggressive wars, something that is strangely downplayed in neocon rhetoric. I imagine it also distresses people who think far-right governments slaughtering leftists is bad. not that that's especially relevant in current-Afghanistan, although the Taliban consolidating in Kabul and some of the other urban centers is going to be A Mess
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Aug 16, 2021 02:12
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suck my woke dick posted:http://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/status/1425809627447500815 This is an extremely stupid take and the withdrawal of troops is obviously the correct and anti-imperialist position, but "we tried our best to do the right thing for these brown savages, but their brains are just too small to accept freedom and democracy, it's always going to be a waste of time" seems to be the message the average Westerner is going to learn from Afghanistan and Western governments will fuel this to avoid taking responsibility. If it reduces the likelihood of more military expeditions I guess I'll take it, but nobody is going to learn anything from this as far as introspection into Western "values" and foreign policy goes.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:17
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Think how good it would feel to really use your life to make things happen. We should loving get rid of everyone with drive. The whole planet would be fine if we'd stayed as fruit-eating fuckapes. The Artificial Kid fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 02:19
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The Artificial Kid posted:What is this about? I don't think I've heard whatever rumour you're alluding to (or else I'm just not picking up what you're putting down). Some of the field commanders/intelligence guys felt like the US had an opportunity to grab Bin Laden before he escaped the base at Tora Bora for Pakistan but the higher-ups (Rumsfeld and Tommy Franks, the commander of the US forces) botched it. The United States Senate Committee on Foreign Relations agreed. Their arguments are that not enough resources were committed to secure the area, they were limited by what armaments they could use, they were denied the go-ahead to attack certain positions, over-reliance on Afghan forces and etc. There was also faulty presumptions that Pakistan would guard the border against crossings, that Bin Laden wasn't there and that there were way more Al Qaeda fighters than there actually were. Essentially, Bin Laden was within their grasp and they let him slip away despite people on the ground explaining the situation was different. Cranappleberry fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 02:30
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Boy, I haven't seen a U.S. State Department-backed government fall this hard to right-wing religious fanatics since 2016!
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Aug 16, 2021 02:33
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FactsAreUseless posted:Boy, I haven't seen a U.S. State Department-backed government fall this hard to right-wing religious fanatics since 2016! It's a little circular to refer to the U.S. as a U.S. State Department-backed government.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:36
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:This is an extremely stupid take and the withdrawal of troops is obviously the correct and anti-imperialist position, but "we tried our best to do the right thing for these brown savages, but their brains are just too small to accept freedom and democracy, it's always going to be a waste of time" seems to be the message the average Westerner is going to learn from Afghanistan and Western governments will fuel this to avoid taking responsibility. i suspect it will reduce big super military adventure invasions for a couple decades, possibly 50 years or so, unless some big war breaks out somewhere else(modi vs xi or russia implodes post putin). neither the dems/libs or the GOP are looking for big foreign invasion fun time adventures, outside the weird neocon remnant and the weird ghouls who write dissertations about how if America made an Afghan raj, then fruit production in Idaho would be bigger.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:36
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suck my woke dick posted:http://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/status/1425809627447500815 She's right we'd better re-invade!
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Aug 16, 2021 02:38
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:This is an extremely stupid take and the withdrawal of troops is obviously the correct and anti-imperialist position, but "we tried our best to do the right thing for these brown savages, but their brains are just too small to accept freedom and democracy, it's always going to be a waste of time" seems to be the message the average Westerner is going to learn from Afghanistan and Western governments will fuel this to avoid taking responsibility. Also, since we're talking about the Bush Administration, I always think of how during the 2000 campaign Bush actually posed as the non-interventionist candidate. Edit: Just to add for those unaware, the Bush Administration already planned to invade Afghanistan a day before 9/11 using Al-Qaeda operations in Afghanistan as a pretext, and Bush's 2000 campaign and administration included supporters of the neoconservative Project for a New American Century like Cheney and Rumsfeld who wanted military intervention abroad to "advance American interests," so Bush's "non-interventionist" rhetoric on the campaign trail was very much bullshit and not altered by 9/11. Enver Zogha fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 02:38
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Smeef posted:It's a little circular to refer to the U.S. as a U.S. State Department-backed government. 
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Aug 16, 2021 02:39
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suck my woke dick posted:http://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/status/1425809627447500815 I saw this yesterday and it kind of made Vivek Chibber's criticisms of Postcolonial theory finally click. If you reduce imperialism and colonialism to simple cultural constructs you end up with takes like this where it's possible to defend a literal occupation of a country as "anti-imperialism". She also seems like a grifter provacateur based on past actions.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:44
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i suspect it will reduce big super military adventure invasions for a couple decades, possibly 50 years or so, unless some big war breaks out somewhere else(modi vs xi or russia implodes post putin). neither the dems/libs or the GOP are looking for big foreign invasion fun time adventures, outside the weird neocon remnant and the weird ghouls who write dissertations about how if America made an Afghan raj, then fruit production in Idaho would be bigger. I think you're underestimating the need for the MIC to be justified and hubris of the ambitious in general. Where there's money, career advancements and jobs on the line justifications will be found.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:45
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Enver Zogha posted:Yeah, I remember circa 2003 those on the right who opposed the Iraq War tended to be paleoconservatives who were like "brown people need strongmen like Saddam Hussein to keep their animistic passions in line." It was also usually accompanied by claiming US foreign policy was cool and good until one day I think there's an article out there about how some ex-military advisor during Obama's 2008 campaign told him not to "fall for the generals" or something like that and that the generals and everyone else in the government diplomatic and intelligence apparatus would be throwing reams of scary "evidence" at him once he got sworn in to justify more invasions and strikes and covert actions. And then this advisor's prediction came true and the rest of the cabinet and the government did its best to freeze the advisor out. Obama never talked to him against after January 2009. Was it a Rolling Stone piece? I'm not sure. If someone knows what I'm talking about, please share it.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:45
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Enver Zogha posted:Yeah, I remember circa 2003 those on the right who opposed the Iraq War tended to be paleoconservatives who were like "brown people need strongmen like Saddam Hussein to keep their animistic passions in line." It was also usually accompanied by claiming US foreign policy was cool and good until one day I remember when the Battle of Mogadishu was a shocking military debacle. Then uh... yeah.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:49
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Okay, so this is obviously hosed. Any wargaming thoughts about how this plays out with a reinforcement of the airport etc? Is there any chance there’s a plan to draw the Taliban in and then USAF the gently caress out of them or something? Ever the pessimist about the fact that there’s a plan involved here, but even from a naive point of view this process looks completely absurd.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:49
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:I think you're underestimating the need for the MIC to be justified and hubris of the ambitious in general. Where there's money, career advancements and jobs on the line justifications will be found. doing what we are doing already. quietly bombing pakistan and etc and delta ops poo poo on various salafist cells or whatever. also selling poo poo to the cops. the money will still roll in. also selling it to other allied countries. you don't need to skin the sheep, just fleece it.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:52
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hellotoothpaste posted:Okay, so this is obviously hosed. Any wargaming thoughts about how this plays out with a reinforcement of the airport etc? Is there any chance there’s a plan to draw the Taliban in and then USAF the gently caress out of them or something? In what world is that a good idea?
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Aug 16, 2021 02:52
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Regalingualius posted:Facetiousness aside, though… Depends. Desperate people hoping for a better life? Yeah that's lovely and I hope they get out or at least don't get hurt. The 'elite' like the warlords who just threw in with the US and their latest imperialist project? Lol gently caress 'em hellotoothpaste posted:Okay, so this is obviously hosed. Any wargaming thoughts about how this plays out with a reinforcement of the airport etc? Is there any chance there’s a plan to draw the Taliban in and then USAF the gently caress out of them or something? Hopefully this happens and they have a bunch of S400's that they found behind a shed and they just blow all the planes the gently caress up. Go home dickheads. Just gently caress off. Regarde Aduck fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 02:54
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hellotoothpaste posted:Okay, so this is obviously hosed. Any wargaming thoughts about how this plays out with a reinforcement of the airport etc? Is there any chance there’s a plan to draw the Taliban in and then USAF the gently caress out of them or something? the Taliban has the airport (which is packed with panicked civilians the U.S. clearly had no plan for dealing with beyond being abandoned to their fates) completely surrounded and it's got plenty of places with lines of sight to/from it, so it really would not be difficult to blow up transport aircraft or gently caress the runway however thankfully the Taliban are both more practical and less monstrously bloodthirsty than you are (as would be readily apparent if you followed pretty much any part of this largely bloodless takeover and their international signaling), so there are pretty good odds they let the U.S. stew in a disaster of its own making for a week or so as it airlifts people out "USAF(ing) the gently caress out of them" would currently be the thing most likely to re-create a U.S. version of the 1842 retreat from Kabul
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Aug 16, 2021 02:57
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hellotoothpaste posted:Okay, so this is obviously hosed. Any wargaming thoughts about how this plays out with a reinforcement of the airport etc? Is there any chance there’s a plan to draw the Taliban in and then USAF the gently caress out of them or something? I can't imagine anything behind the reinforcements other than having enough troops in the airport to make sure the Taliban aren't tempted to try to attack it (if they're really that irrational and not content to just let the US get embarrassed without firing anymore shots or losing any more soldiers). And also having enough people around to try to enforce some kind of order against panicked Afghans who are at the airport already. I don't see any room for a Sun Tzu/Napoleonic military masterstroke here. That'd be like some lovely Marvel movie.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:57
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LGD posted:the Taliban has the airport (which is packed with panicked civilians the U.S. clearly had no plan for dealing with beyond being abandoned to their fates) completely surrounded and it's got plenty of places with lines of sight to/from it, so it really would not be difficult to blow up transport aircraft or gently caress the runway Eh, I suspect the Taliban is going to enjoy its victory and let anyone who can get a ride out, leave. The quickest way to giving the US and Biden any ammo to start hammering Taliban positions is picking off USAF or US State Department aircraft. And they know that. Plus the Taliban is no doubt busy consolidating their victories, so they have bigger fish to fry. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 02:59
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CommieGIR posted:Eh, I suspect the Taliban is going to enjoy its victory and let anyone who can get a ride out, leave. The quickest way to giving the US and Biden any ammo to start hammering Taliban positions is picking off USAF or US State Department aircraft. That's exactly what I said?  vvv fair enough, I certainly misread things from time to time! (and this might be an example) vvv LGD fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 03:01
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LGD posted:That's exactly what I said? Yeah. My bad, I was in agreement with you.
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Aug 16, 2021 03:01
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The Taliban don't need to attack retreating US forces/officials. They've decisively won and the only thing that will threaten that is giving the US an excuse to re-invade by killing bunch of Americans.
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Aug 16, 2021 03:03
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fool of sound posted:The Taliban don't need to attack retreating US forces/officials. They've decisively won and the only thing that will threaten that is giving the US an excuse to re-invade by killing bunch of Americans. Yeah you generally don't interrupt the enemy when they're doing what you want.
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Aug 16, 2021 03:08
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sean10mm posted:Yeah you generally don't interrupt the enemy when they're doing what you want. If the Taliban was our enemy, why would we exclude the Afghan government from the peace negotiations?
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Aug 16, 2021 03:10
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:If the Taliban was our enemy, why would we exclude the Afghan government from the peace negotiations? Gotta go ask Big Brain Trump. Also, why he encouraged Pakistan to let the guy who is likely to become Afghanistan's president out of prison to lube that peace treaty.
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Aug 16, 2021 03:16
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