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A big flaming stink posted:i harp on you for this attitude because i think you firmly believe that the us regime was better for the people of afghanistan than the taliban is, and to believe that either requires profound ignorance of the regime's actions or a total disregard for the lives of the people Feel free to quote me wherever I said that. I posed plenty about it in this thread and the middle east thread.
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Sep 21, 2021 00:46
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Terminal autist posted:Exporting violence on an industrial scale and brutally occupying a country for decades doesn't exactly produce a culture of poets and artists. I dunno about art but the Talibs produce alot of poetry: Some of it kind of funny   Some of it a bit less so:   
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Sep 21, 2021 01:29
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I'm finding their assertion that they are not animals slightly suspect, considering the way they think of and treat women. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 21, 2021 01:35
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Zedhe Khoja posted:Two of those seem mutually exclusive. I can't see our stingy psychotic immigration system letting you do a 912 and then an i-134. The 912 is for the 131 application fees while the 134 is only relevant if they make it to the US and then need financial assistance. The 134 basically just lowers the bar for approval of the 131. That much I know at least.
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Sep 21, 2021 01:45
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How are u posted:I'm finding their assertion that they are not animals slightly suspect, considering the way they think of and treat women. Wowee zowee
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Sep 21, 2021 01:51
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Zedhe Khoja posted:I dunno about art but the Talibs produce alot of poetry: Yeah I worded that pretty stupid and didn't mean to imply Afghans can't produce art, I basically meant its not surprising when violent environments create violent people. Edit: thats really good stuff, do you have a source for it? Terminal autist fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 02:11
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How are u posted:Feel free to quote me wherever I said that. I posed plenty about it in this thread and the middle east thread. How are u posted:I'm finding their assertion that they are not animals slightly suspect, considering the way they think of and treat women. well, uh, i have to say i didn't expect you to prove my point immediately after objecting to it, but I thank you for the clarity! 
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Sep 21, 2021 04:26
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How are u posted:I'm finding their assertion that they are not animals slightly suspect, considering the way they think of and treat women. So let me get this straight, calling an entire nation of people animals is worth only a 6 hour probation?
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Sep 21, 2021 05:15
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It's kind of impressive that of all the things to get the mask to come off, it was poetry that did it.
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Sep 21, 2021 05:17
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Dopilsya posted:I read that article when it was first posted in this thread. You either failed to read and understand it, or are making a bad faith effort to mislead since that article isn't salient to this post. The claim was that the USA drone strike program killed, on average, 6 members of each Afghan family. There is no data that shows anything close to this that I've seen, though if you have any feel free to post it. This is an article that 1) is not about the American drone strike program; 2) it does not account for who actually killed these family members; and 3) you are extrapolating deaths in a small town that was the center of a combat operation to an entire country. Are you making the pedantic point here that these people weren't killed by US drone strikes specifically? Because I really don't care so much about exactly how these people were killed or by who, so much as who is responsible for their deaths (the US). Also the journalist checks multiple villages to make sure they are not dealing with an outlier, and explains this in the very passage I quoted. quote:The Taliban solution starts and finishes with bombs, state repression, and killing. It may be a better deal for many, but it is also reasonable to think that the lives of many Afghans will be worse as a result from the US withdrawal. The Americans couldn't stay forever, though, and they had their failures as well, so the situation as it stands is the reality that Afghans live in. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/15/world/Afghanistan-rural-life-under-Taliban.html quote:CHAK-E WARDAK, Afghanistan — Sixty bone-rattling miles southwest of Kabul, remnants of America’s longest war are abundant. Pillaged outposts scatter the hilltops, and skeletons of burned-out police pickup trucks and Humvees litter the road that weaves through the valleys in between. So weird how the shooting and bombing stopped when the US left. In the next few years, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Afghan civilians will not be dying of violence because the US left, who would have died of violence if the US stayed. Do you not think that for them and for those who love them, their lives will be better as a result of the US withdrawal, actually? And can the same not be said for the countless young boys who will not be used as sex slaves by US backed warlords? How are u posted:You seriously do not have to say this. You can say the Taliban are bad people, saying as much does not magically make you a supporter of the United States. You don't have to say it. But it is true. The Taliban have really terrible ideas and values. And yet they are an improvement over the US running the country. A lot of posters in this thread are desperately in denial about just how goddamn horrible the US empire is, and how vast and horrendous it's crimes have been in recent (and not so recent) history. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 08:50
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empty whippet box posted:So let me get this straight, calling an entire nation of people animals is worth only a 6 hour probation? No, but it would seem that calling a militant theocratic organization operating as the government of an entire nation of people animals is worth a six hour probation. And then probably only if its a non-white nation because of the unintended implications of the particular insult. Which I'd say is fair. Probes are often used on D&D to smarten people up to not say things that they didn't think through the implications of so they'll hopefully do so next time. Anyone who wants to call an American white supremacists evangelical hate group animals I'm guessing would get a warning at most.
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Sep 21, 2021 08:56
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Dopilsya posted:The last section, I would agree with, certainly one can hope that the needs of running the country will drive the Taliban to bargain, but it seems optimistic to say the material reality will dictate when the Taliban as an organisation seems committed to a particular brand of idealism and rejection of materialism that implies they would refuse to be subject to it, and their success on the ground against the ANA would likely harden their resolve in that matter. I just wanted to say thanks for actually writing out a thoughtful post, which seems progressively rarer and rarer on D&D. I'm surprised you've never been banned. Oh, only 222 posts in 11 years. Christ 4400 for myself in the same time, what have I done with my life.
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Sep 21, 2021 09:41
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How are u posted:I'm finding their assertion that they are not animals slightly suspect, considering the way they think of and treat women. See you think this is just 'criticism', but you have no such words for America for how we allow our operators to behave. Rhetoric is also not neutral. All of this feeds into the US apparatus that pushes for intervention and sanction, and the outcome is always the same. You say 'that's not my intent', I tell you plainly your intent is irrelevant. Outcomes are what matter and you are helping seed specific ones. Also, genuinely interested in how much depth you actually have on American atrocities. You seem quite certain the Taliban are among the most heinous group; They don't hold a candle to what we foment, create and personally perpetrate in our extended empire. Just because things aren't bad at home doesn't absolve us of what we do and have done abroad.
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Sep 21, 2021 13:27
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Dopilsya posted:Ah, I think I see your position-- a sort of double tragedy not only for what the Americans did, but also the failure to use the moment and putting a stake in the heart of the aspirations of Afghans who wanted a more democratic society because it was easier and more enriching to put warlords in control. Although everything in history is about the interplay between different groups, some factions have more agency then others in events. Usually that's related to the actual material power wielded by one of them. The US has quite often been in the position to direct the outcome of world events because of our power and central position in world economics post war. We have, almost without fail, pushed situations INTO conflict, war and slaughter rather than away. At some point it stops becoming mistakes and is just policy. Whatever high minded rhetoric we use to sell our adventurism at home, it is manifestly not our actual goals. Dopilsya posted:I'm not sure I agree with your bet, though. The Taliban are committed to an ideology that seems to reject a desire for western material goods as decadent and even if most of the population disagrees, they're an hierarchical organisation that's known for suppressing dissent. If it comes down to it, Afghanistan will still be a country of millions of impoverished people ruled by a tiny, rich oligarchy who use their ideology and guns to suppress dissent. After the war and occupation, with climate instability looming and already hitting the region, and with modern supply networks organized as they are, it won't be. Circumstances have changed. If the Taliban do not forge trade deals and create links to their neighbours, then the region will collapse and spark civil war. There is no circumstance were an Isolationist Taliban remains in control for more than a few years, if that. I desperately hope that does not happen. Too many have died already
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Sep 21, 2021 13:38
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:See you think this is just 'criticism', but you have no such words for America for how we allow our operators to behave. I'd like to see both the US military and the Taliban held accountable for their actions. I doubt we'll see either.
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Sep 21, 2021 15:29
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How are u posted:I'd like to see both the US military and the Taliban held accountable for their actions. I doubt we'll see either. are our vanguard throatslitters who collect ears and shoot children animals though?
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Sep 21, 2021 15:40
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:are our vanguard throatslitters who collect ears and shoot children animals though? Don't forget the rape. Even of other soldiers.
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Sep 21, 2021 18:07
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Btw, I didn’t forget about posting excerpts on the stay behind networks like gladio, or at least what I’m familiar with. I got a little sidetracked and I don’t want to CTRL+V something crappy, so I need to use my computer instead of my phone. bear with me if you’ve got bated breath, sorry.
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Sep 21, 2021 19:39
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mawarannahr posted:Btw, I didn’t forget about posting excerpts on the stay behind networks like gladio, or at least what I’m familiar with. I got a little sidetracked and I don’t want to CTRL+V something crappy, so I need to use my computer instead of my phone. bear with me if you’ve got bated breath, sorry. I mean, even whatever you have is only the tip of the iceberg, most of this wasn't ever supposed to be found out, only the bankruptcy of the Vatican Bank opened any of it to scrutiny. The whole extent will probably never be known, likely most of it was never recorded to begin with, and while we know that programs in other European states existed almost nothing is available on them as far as concrete activities. But from what we know of Gladio, like how it was our proxies who executed Aldo Moro and then pinned it on the Red Brigades, one can make some educated guesses.
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Sep 21, 2021 19:51
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Jaxyon posted:Don't forget the rape. Even of other soldiers. this was pretty hosed too https://twitter.com/coldwarleninade/status/1431558916283015172?s=19 And those Afghanistan freedom rankings have been tragic for many, many continuous years now. But of course it wasn't a problem for the majority of the war for most Americans. In fact, there was never any strong feelings about everything depraved that went down there whatsoever, even after the Afghanistan Papers came out. I have higher hopes for Afghanistan under Taliban control than I ever did for whatever warlord ruled puppet state the USA could poo poo out there. Let the Afghan people determine their own fates for once in forever. But first and foremost the international community, chiefly USA, has a massive bill to pay to Afghanistan that should be taking up the majority of the conversation. But we live in a world where a terrorist state can vaporize children on its way out, call it an oopsie, and then gently caress off into the sunset with no consequences or lessons learned. Really cool and really moral and really makes us better than that "other".
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Sep 21, 2021 22:32
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Lost Time posted:But we live in a world where a terrorist state can vaporize children on its way out, call it an oopsie, and then gently caress off into the sunset with no consequences or lessons learned. Really cool and really moral and really makes us better than that "other". while freezing the state assets they directed to US banks to try and triple down on chaos and misery in their departure.
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Sep 21, 2021 22:54
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:while freezing the state assets they directed to US banks to try and triple down on chaos and misery in their departure. And shutting down commercial air traffic at the airport was also a very bad move. USA seemed more interested in getting the burn bags going, taking evidence out of the mass torture prisons, and blowing up a fortified CIA base than in really helping the people and situation there.
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Sep 22, 2021 01:20
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Lost Time posted:And shutting down commercial air traffic at the airport was also a very bad move. Makes me wonder why people don't believe those with power in the US genuinely give a gently caress about Afghan women's rights.
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Sep 22, 2021 19:28
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/24/afghanistan-taliban-enforcer-says-amputations-will-resume I guess they still do it in Saudi-Arabia so this shouldn't effect any future alliances with the West.
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Sep 24, 2021 06:52
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Sanguinia posted:No, but it would seem that calling a militant theocratic organization operating as the government of an entire nation of people animals is worth a six hour probation. Nobody called the American government animals though? DarkCrawler posted:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/24/afghanistan-taliban-enforcer-says-amputations-will-resume I mean they still have the death penalty in America which seems worse to me than amputations. Also "Turabi said that this time, judges – including women – would adjudicate cases," Also claiming they'll reopen schools for girls and probably put women into the cabinet. I guess we'll see. https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/afghanistans-taliban-say-working-reopening-girls-high-schools-2021-09-21/ Oh, and the USA led occupation Afghanistan had a law which allowed husbands to deny wives food if they fail to obey sexual demands and for rapists to pay blood money to avoid prosecution. As far as I can tell the only women who the occupation benefited were a few middle class people in cities. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/aug/14/afghanistan-womens-rights-rape
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Sep 24, 2021 09:48
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Zedhe Khoja posted:I dunno about art but the Talibs produce alot of poetry: When set to song, I'm sure "How many are the NGOs" would be very catchy
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Sep 24, 2021 18:10
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Lost Time posted:
 Correct, however, I am deeply disturbed by the fact that their poetry (the part about the interviews) seem to indicate that they are against affirmative action for WoC. What can we do to get the Taliban to support affirmative action?
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Sep 24, 2021 18:25
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:After he told the US to gently caress off, the French Mafia tried real hard to off him for a while,which was a rather interesting development. Wonder why they felt so strongly about it. I am french, believe it or not we have agency and political decisions in France sometimes don't involve the USA
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Sep 26, 2021 15:30
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I am french, believe it or not we have agency and political decisions in France sometimes don't involve the USA I'm not sure what side of the line Johnny Halliday fell on.
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Sep 26, 2021 20:12
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Edgar, could you shed some light as to why the French mafia would want to kill him then?
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Sep 26, 2021 21:46
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Weka posted:Edgar, could you shed some light as to why the French mafia would want to kill him then? This is such an amazingly American question, holy poo poo. Coming in here with this smug-rear end tone when you barely even know who de Gaulle is.  The end of the French Fourth Republic and the beginning of the French Fifth Republic was a time of considerable domestic strife and chaos, marked by the willingness of various groups to use political violence, especially against the very opinionated leader who'd been brought in to reform French politics and bring the country back from the literal brink of a far-right coup. The list of French groups who wanted to kill him for things he did in France was not short.
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Sep 26, 2021 22:09
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It is not hard to guess the reason why a Mediterranean-centric organised crime body operating through French territory might have a specific grievance against De Gaulle.
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Sep 26, 2021 22:11
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Main Paineframe posted:This is such an amazingly American question, holy poo poo. Coming in here with this smug-rear end tone when you barely even know who de Gaulle is. Wow, I just asked a question. Also I'm not American. Also you seem to have a stick up your arse.
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Sep 27, 2021 05:15
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Alchenar posted:It is not hard to guess the reason why a Mediterranean-centric organised crime body operating through French territory might have a specific grievance against De Gaulle. All the more reason for the CIA to partner with them I mean, if you're already part of the Heroin trade might as well branch out with your business partners. The links the CIA had to the Aldo Moro assassination, and how heavily that involved working with the Italian mafia, to me, indicates their presence in basically every right wing political move in post war Europe. It's not them manipulating people, it's them assisting and working with factions that would most directly oppose any dealings or detente with the Soviets. There are a myriad of reasons why right wing/criminal (as though those aren't synonymous lol) factions would want De Gaulle dead. There is no way in my mind the CIA wasn't privy to those decisions and likely actively working to assist them. e: that's not how you spell Moro, and the last paragraph I meant to write De Gaulle. Too late to be conspiracy poo poo posting. Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Sep 27, 2021 |
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Sep 27, 2021 05:41
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:There are a myriad of reasons why right wing/criminal (as though those aren't synonymous lol) factions would want Morrow dead. There is no way in my mind the CIA wasn't privy to those decisions and likely actively working to assist them. They made the helicopter crash?
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Sep 27, 2021 05:57
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:All the more reason for the CIA to partner with them CIA always pulling the strings of their European puppets to make them dance.
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Sep 27, 2021 07:46
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Grip it and rip it posted:CIA always pulling the strings of their European puppets to make them dance. Nowhere in that remark did Ron Paul Atredies say anything like that. Involvement with isn't the same as directing. For all the critique that people on the political left get for being involved in conspiracy thinking it isn't nearly as daft as when people who oppose them become unable to read nuance. Or indeed, to be able to read what was actually written.
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Sep 27, 2021 08:12
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Could the Trans-Atlantic CIA conspiracy idiots just shut the gently caress up here? Go make your own thread on how America is the true evil empire. Now, in actually relevant news, gibbeting is back in Afghanistan: Al-Jazeera posted:Four bodies of suspected kidnappers are displayed in different parts of Herat city ‘to alert all criminals’, with one hanged from a crane.
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Sep 27, 2021 08:49
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Josef bugman posted:Nowhere in that remark did Ron Paul Atredies say anything like that. Involvement with isn't the same as directing. What is a puppet master and puppet but a partnership between two members with wildly disproportionate ability and agency? Nice meltdown though Nice meltdown though. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 27, 2021 09:21
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Grip it and rip it posted:What is a puppet master and puppet but a partnership between two members with wildly disproportionate ability and agency? Nice meltdown though A burn so nice you said it twice.
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Sep 27, 2021 13:54
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