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also the game is balanced around taking damage. There's a medkit every level, plus lots of instant heal bulbs from higher end enemies and red/white chests. It's very rare that you get whittled down until you die, most of the time when I die it's because of a single deadly encounter, not many small ones.
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Aug 23, 2021 13:36
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| # ? May 9, 2024 01:19 |
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The issue seems to be that cock flux hero wants to analyze and play Jupiter Hell as if it was identical to DoomRL in every way. You can take damage opening doors and running back to cover! Well, yeah, in very specific situations, which you have tactics and character abilities to mitigate. Also, taking damage is okay in JH. You aren't going to slowly be pecked to death because you took a minor hit once a floor. You have cushion. Like, I like DoomRL a lot, but Jupiter Hell doesn't have to be DoomRL 1.2.
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Aug 23, 2021 13:56
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It seems like almost every floor has a medical chest which gives you 40 + 40 health in total and that's more than enough to mitigate whatever chip damage you're getting. I'm usually more concerned about the damage to my armor durability.
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Aug 23, 2021 14:19
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Vengeance (+50% crit chance per kill until you reload) + loading feed (reload a shot every time you move, doesn't reset the bonus) + crit enhancer, deadly precision & ghost for spamming free stealth shots sure is something.  200+ damage per shot, ravagers and the like get gibbed instantly.
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Aug 23, 2021 14:27
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Do aim bonuses do anything for shotguns?
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Aug 23, 2021 15:10
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I notice that sometimes my health increases from the red terminals vanish. What gives? Is it a bug or do they only last a certain amount of levels? And no its not Medusa health drain. It's just completely gone sometimes.
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Aug 23, 2021 15:25
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FrickenMoron posted:I notice that sometimes my health increases from the red terminals vanish. What gives? Is it a bug or do they only last a certain amount of levels? And no its not Medusa health drain. It's just completely gone sometimes. Large Stimpacks reduce your max health, the description says something about them being bad for your health. Maybe it's that?
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Aug 23, 2021 15:27
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Thats it indeed, I never noticed that about military stimpacks. They show up so rarely and I just assumed they're big emergency buttons. Edit: I've done over 15 Angel of Marksmanship attempts on hard today and I cant even get out of Callisto most of the time, jeez. FrickenMoron fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Aug 23, 2021 |
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Aug 23, 2021 15:30
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Kchama posted:Also, taking damage is okay in JH. You aren't going to slowly be pecked to death because you took a minor hit once a floor. You have cushion. It's not, though. It's okay to take 40 damage per level, because every level seemingly has a guaranteed health crate which will heal you for that amount. Take more than 40 and you'll be burning permanent resources to heal it back up. On medium this doesn't matter too much, you'll occasionally take an unavoidable poke but the free health the game gives you every level will outweigh it by quite a bit. By the time enemies become tough enough to do more than that, you'll have a substantial amount of cushion built up and skills/armour to mitigate it and it'll still be completely manageable. On UV, though, the enemies get a lot tougher a lot quicker, there are more of them, and their attacks miss less often. All of this compounds to really make you notice how often the game is forcing you to let enemies take shots on you. If you're unlucky it's entirely possible to open a door on Callisto 1 into completely unavoidable death. This carries throughout most of the game on this difficulty, and in a lot of cases the only real way to not die is simply to not open doors. Of course, you need to open doors to like, go places, so your alternative is taking position in cover and shooting down every door you come across. This is a full-blown OPTIMAL MAN strategy, though, and is viscerally offensive to all normal people, so most people will instead just have to accept the fact that opening a door comes with a significant chance to immediately get murdered or at least mauled badly enough that you have to spend far more resources than you can afford to in order to live.
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Aug 23, 2021 15:43
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How to get achievements: Body : Cybersuit P3B2A3 * Auto-med 5 * Metabolic boost * Plated * Painkiller * Fire-resistant * Padded * Swift * Meshed
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Aug 23, 2021 15:45
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I have no idea why AoS is marked as Medium Difficulty when it's easiest of all challenges to clear.
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Aug 23, 2021 16:06
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I just had the most ridiculous UV run, thanks mostly to the Railgun with a Gunrunner build. That weapon is absolutely bonkers. Excellent damage stats, good range with no min-range penalty, and it completely ignores cover. Doesn't matter if the game claims you have a 9% chance to hit due to multiple crates between you and your target, you are guaranteed to blast him for full damage as if he was standing right in front of you. The Railgun I was using also rolled with a Frenzy 10 trait, so combined with an Autocalibrate buff I was doing 88 pierce damage every round once the action started. I've never coasted through the CRI Labs so effortlessly.
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Aug 23, 2021 17:12
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cock hero flux posted:It's not, though. It's okay to take 40 damage per level, because every level seemingly has a guaranteed health crate which will heal you for that amount. Take more than 40 and you'll be burning permanent resources to heal it back up. You start off by saying "it's not okay to take damage" and then immediately go into saying it's okay to take 40 damage per level. So yes, it's okay to take damage because you have cushion. You really do not need to shoot down every door you come across or any of that. Like, what the gently caress are you talking about? You seem to just be trying to push this whole "actually shooting the darkness over and over in DoomRL was good because in Jupiter Hell you can sometimes take damage opening doors!" and it's just not landing.
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Aug 23, 2021 17:13
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Kchama posted:You start off by saying "it's not okay to take damage" and then immediately go into saying it's okay to take 40 damage per level. So yes, it's okay to take damage because you have cushion. You really do not need to shoot down every door you come across or any of that. Like, what the gently caress are you talking about? You seem to just be trying to push this whole "actually shooting the darkness over and over in DoomRL was good because in Jupiter Hell you can sometimes take damage opening doors!" and it's just not landing. A cushion of 40 damage is plenty on Medium and not enough to account for literally 1 bad turn on Ultra. Also, didn't even mention DRL. Drew comparisons to it earlier in a post in a different thread, but this is a problem in a vacuum, not just in relation to its predecessor. DRL suffered from the same problem, it's conceptually inherent to a roguelike without health regeneration and especially if it also focuses on ranged combat.
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Aug 23, 2021 17:28
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Kchama posted:You seem to just be trying to push this whole "actually shooting the darkness over and over in DoomRL was good because in Jupiter Hell you can sometimes take damage opening doors!" and it's just not landing. Actually, if you'd like to know what I'm genuinely trying to push, this could tie-in to my long-running series of ironically incredibly tedious posts on the topic of "Why Making Changes To Reduce The Potential Tedium Of Hypothetical Perfectly Optimal Play Is Almost Never A Good Idea And Usually Doesn't Work Anyway"
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Aug 23, 2021 17:34
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I've only played on hard so far but it seems fine to me. Yes, the game only has a fixed amount of health available in a given playthrough, but there's also a fixed amount of enemies to defeat. The game is about setting up advantageous situation so you can maximize the enemies killed while minimizing the health lost. I don't think you need the ability to take 0 damage with perfect play for that to work.
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Aug 23, 2021 17:42
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I've got a real strong gunkata build with Hate, surely I can take inferno on UV? No, inferno exists purely to kill you
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Aug 23, 2021 20:40
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cock hero flux posted:IOn medium this doesn't matter too much, you'll occasionally take an unavoidable poke but the free health the game gives you every level will outweigh it by quite a bit. By the time enemies become tough enough to do more than that, you'll have a substantial amount of cushion built up and skills/armour to mitigate it and it'll still be completely manageable. On UV, though, the enemies get a lot tougher a lot quicker, there are more of them, and their attacks miss less often. All of this compounds to really make you notice how often the game is forcing you to let enemies take shots on you. If you're unlucky it's entirely possible to open a door on Callisto 1 into completely unavoidable death. This carries throughout most of the game on this difficulty, and in a lot of cases the only real way to not die is simply to not open doors. Of course, you need to open doors to like, go places, so your alternative is taking position in cover and shooting down every door you come across. This is a full-blown OPTIMAL MAN strategy, though, and is viscerally offensive to all normal people, so most people will instead just have to accept the fact that opening a door comes with a significant chance to immediately get murdered or at least mauled badly enough that you have to spend far more resources than you can afford to in order to live. "Sometimes you open a door and it's VERY BAD but that's ok, you're doom guy" seems one of the fundamental ideas behind the game, how it's balanced, and what makes it so fun. So there are many skill and item sources of enemy sense you are able to invest in to mitigate the risk of ambush at the cost of character power, and then another layer of (non-healing) consumables/skills specifically designed to deal with ambushes. The devs are also using map layouts in combination with enemy difficulty to control how often you need to explore in unsafe ways and as a part of which branches are more dangerous and more rewarding. The time pressure from respawns on Nightmare appears to make any slow playing tedious strategies an UV-only problem anyway but I defer to people better at the game than me to answer this. And compared with what you need to do on the unfair difficulties in something like ToME any few tediously optimal things in JH are mild to the point of nonexistent. That said, everything you complained about walking into LOS and having to get first action kills is pretty legitimate when applied to rocket turrets. They are often placed where there is no retreat without eating splash damage and having a way to first turn kill this one turret type be worth so much total hp over the course of a run feels off.
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Aug 23, 2021 21:12
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cyrn posted:"Sometimes you open a door and it's VERY BAD but that's ok, you're doom guy" seems one of the fundamental ideas behind the game, how it's balanced, and what makes it so fun. So there are many skill and item sources of enemy sense you are able to invest in to mitigate the risk of ambush at the cost of character power, and then another layer of (non-healing) consumables/skills specifically designed to deal with ambushes. The devs are also using map layouts in combination with enemy difficulty to control how often you need to explore in unsafe ways and as a part of which branches are more dangerous and more rewarding. Tip: the final turret of the map can be disabled for free from the terminal, saved my rear end a ton of HP.
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Aug 23, 2021 21:17
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Anyone know how to scroll up/down on gear descriptions? I don't see it in keybinds.
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Aug 23, 2021 21:48
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missposted this in the rl thread: Anyone have tips for getting melee off the ground? Doing Angel of Light Travel on Hard. I think I need to reevaluate my approach to melee usage and avoid meleeing fiends or bots at all early until my build is online, grunts and drones are all pretty harmless, but I think those are doing just enough chip damage that I run into issues before I'm established The only crappy part about this is it makes getting the guaranteed weighted amps for melee impossible if I use a pistol until <level whatever> - and this does suck, because last game I went two full areas and special areas and every single amp I got was the wrong type, wound up dying to lack of power Playing melee efficiently early kinda sucks rear end anyway, lots of baiting. bees x1000 posted:Anyone know how to scroll up/down on gear descriptions? I don't see it in keybinds. r... right analog stick? 
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Aug 23, 2021 22:06
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My experience with melee is that you mostly avoid using it until your master skill comes online, though there are some occasions in Calisto where knifing things is good, it's great against calsec sentries/bots, and sometimes against former humans. Feels to me like any demons you can't oneshot with a melee swing isn't something you want to swing at. I've managed to get weighted melee rewards in Calisto by swapping between a .44 revolver/9mm auto and the hunting rifle while getting as many safe kills with the knife as I could. Einwand fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Aug 23, 2021 |
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Aug 23, 2021 22:16
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Yeah I didn't stop using guns until Io or even Dante on a melee build, not killing on the first swing can be a big problem for big threats and you won't have as many consumables handy in AoLT to recover chip damage. I wouldn't worry too much about getting melee as your top category as I think you can get away with waiting until katana to 'main' melee. And if you can handle shattered abyss, that's gonna be your best in slot anyways.
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Aug 23, 2021 22:23
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Honestly with melee builds I tend to melee rarely until about level 4, when I've got 3 levels of Hellrunner and I can dodge most damage. And even then, there are plenty of threats where a long range solution is generally more effective; stuff like turrets where you can't lure them out and charging them could be painful, but also stuff like fiends that are no risk at range and enough health that they're tricky to oneshot. No idea what to do with Technician melee though, I rely on Hellrunner way too much.
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Aug 23, 2021 23:08
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Arzaac posted:Honestly with melee builds I tend to melee rarely until about level 4, when I've got 3 levels of Hellrunner and I can dodge most damage. And even then, there are plenty of threats where a long range solution is generally more effective; stuff like turrets where you can't lure them out and charging them could be painful, but also stuff like fiends that are no risk at range and enough health that they're tricky to oneshot. Juggernaut, though that mitigates damage and doesn't do anything to avoid getting hit. Still, it can help you get across the room to that turret without having to heal, on normal anyway. Do enemies in cover get a bonus to aim? I feel like anytime I (stupidly) try to fight one, even while hunkered myself, every shot of theirs lands while I have to spend a turn or two aiming. Also, aside from difficulty modifiers, do enemies ever get bonuses to accuracy?
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Aug 23, 2021 23:32
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Finally got a post-release clear - AoC UV as a survivor marine. Only possible due to finding some Medusa artifact in the Noxious Hollow, which instakills organics but drains max HP in the process (mitigated with Ironman). Invalidating 2/3 of the bestiary is extremely dirty, but a win is a win. waddler fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Aug 23, 2021 |
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Aug 23, 2021 23:37
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Arzaac posted:No idea what to do with Technician melee though, I rely on Hellrunner way too much. Juggernaut is excellent at level 3, and the doubled melee guard from Blademaster becomes very strong if you use a Bulk mod on a blade mainhand.
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Aug 23, 2021 23:37
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100% achievements done. I kinda hope they don't add any more for the missing challenges, many don't sound fun at all. Going to screw around with endless mode now. Thoughts: - Top 3 roguelike along with Qud and Cogmind. Definitely going on the 2021 GOTY list. I'm looking forward to more updates. - My wins so far are 2x Survivor, Army of Darkness, Sniper, and 6x Wizard. If they decide to nerf gasman I hope they can keep the fun. - the campaign seems a little short, like it ends before you can really enjoy the cool stuff you find in Io. I don't want more Dante though, that place is stressful. - some weapon perks are nearly useless, e.g. Cleaner - bonus damage to dudes that die in one shot anyways. - the transition from 7.62 to plasma feels awkward to me. not enough reliable ammo early or reliable mod packs later. in all my games I've only used a basic plasma gun once. - Game could use more number transparency. when you start stacking armor and damage reduction and hunkering and whatever I can only guess how much I'm going to get hurt. Also I don't know which enemies deal which damage types. - I don't really like how enemy AI generally avoids wandering into your LoS, but I'm not sure what to change about it without making turtling a 100% optimal strat.
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Aug 24, 2021 00:43
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Can someone break down the general build / strategy for the gas wizard? I'm afraid of anything but Marine.
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Aug 24, 2021 01:39
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bees x1000 posted:ultraviolent wizard strats
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Aug 24, 2021 01:41
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Personally I've been beelining hacker+remote hack, every robot up to and including the CRI bots can be effortlessly "killed" at LOS for 4 skill points, though the CRI bots take 1 multitool if you want them as allies but by that point you're strong enough you shouldn't really need them consistently. Even the CRI MK2 can be cheaply turned off with a multitool or two. Remote hack seems like a worthless trait to take past 1 since it does stuff that's not really that useful. Additional benefit to having remote hack is it lets you tell your summoned poo poo to stay back when you're trying to lure things to a better place to fight. Einwand fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 01:46
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Melee is very situational for about half the game, so the key to a melee build is recognizing and setting up those situations. It involves a lot of running away and waiting around corners to ambush approaching zombies. If you're worried about non-melee kill count, you can game the numbers by using both a pistol and a rifle, and using explosive barrels which get counted as 'environment' kills. Chain-killing groups of zombies can get your melee kill count pretty high, so using a gun about half the time shouldn't screw you over.
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Aug 24, 2021 01:50
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bees x1000 posted:Thoughts: Agreed but s/cogmind/dungeonmans I beat Cogmind unspoiled last year, but that game is actively hateful and feels like it's been massively overdeveloped for a very narrow audience. I love so many parts of it but jesus does it not want you to have fun blasting the poo poo out of robots with cool rear end guns. (... also more relevant, no matter what font size/combo I chose the game gives me a splitting headache after awhile, which is a drat shame given how much time and effort the dev put into making it the best looking ascii roguelike out there)quote:- the campaign seems a little short, like it ends before you can really enjoy the cool stuff you find in Io. I don't want more Dante though, that place is stressful. Agreed, one more full tech or hybrid tech/demon zone would feel great quote:- the transition from 7.62 to plasma feels awkward to me. not enough reliable ammo early or reliable mod packs later. in all my games I've only used a basic plasma gun once. And agreed, partly because of the above. Less areas remaining means less items remaining means less chances to fully mod out/get an amp for a new weapon, which means a fully tricked out setup is the smarter play, particularly if you've invested traits into a weapon line that you can't change late in the game. That friction isn't great, some brain rescrambler chambers or something would make those trait lines more appealing as useful for a few zones instead of locking you in for the entire game. quote:- some weapon perks are nearly useless, e.g. Cleaner - bonus damage to dudes that die in one shot anyways. Part of the problem with the first is the second - I dislike that I need to constantly tab out to a wiki to check mod effects, and it's not clear what options are the correct choices without crunching some math in your head or looking up advice online. Most of them are fairly straightforward, and you can definitely beat the game without minmaxing them (I did, on UV), but I feel like you need that extra knowledge if you're going to go for N!+challenges and the game doesn't share it. Evidently the next patch is going to add a hellpedia to the game, so maybe that will address it? An in-game full world/zone map and mod/item database is absolutely something I'd like to see. The game is so good about clean gameflow and ui, it feels like a misstep to have that info missing currently.
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Aug 24, 2021 01:53
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clarification: cogmind rpglike mode is fun. I don't like the standard mode very much.
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Aug 24, 2021 01:59
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I suck at this game but it owns bones. I wish there was a replay system that would just replay your entire run but in fluid motion so I can see the carnage I wrought in real-time
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Aug 24, 2021 02:33
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blakyoshi posted:Melee is very situational for about half the game, so the key to a melee build is recognizing and setting up those situations. It involves a lot of running away and waiting around corners to ambush approaching zombies. If you're worried about non-melee kill count, you can game the numbers by using both a pistol and a rifle, and using explosive barrels which get counted as 'environment' kills. Chain-killing groups of zombies can get your melee kill count pretty high, so using a gun about half the time shouldn't screw you over. On UV or nightmare Ghost Scout pretty much has to go for one of the two AV2 machete Callisto branches which means you have to have most melee kills to get it. Very annoying. Unless people have a more reliable strategy. I usually just rotate as many other weapons as possible (starting .44, 9mm SMG, 9mm auto, semi .44 hunter, shotgun if you find a decent one) then you just gotta have melee kills at the top by killing 9mm zombies or non ranged fiends before you spawn on the final branch level. AV2 machete pretty much needs to carry you through at least half of the game if you don't get lucky with rare/unique finds. If you don't immediately go to the AV2 melee weapon level branch then it feels like way too much rng if the game lets you find a good melee weapon before you die. Awesome game though! I'd love them to better balance other master skills as some are just clearly unworkable on higher difficulties. Mid-game right now is the strongest/most fun by far, and other mentioned end game can use some improvements. Devs on forums seem like very strict anti-save scum fundamentalists, which to each their own. However, I wish they would add a "restart current level" on death option that just erases your high score/run record for this run like it never happened. Sometimes I still want to finish the run if I'm close to the end especially if I have a super funny/weird build that's hard to try out otherwise. Rad Russian fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 02:41
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Chinook posted:Can someone break down the general build / strategy for the gas wizard? I'm afraid of anything but Marine. 1: get Toxicologist and Wizard 2: 
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Aug 24, 2021 03:16
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Rad Russian posted:On UV or nightmare Ghost Scout pretty much has to go for one of the two AV2 machete Callisto branches which means you have to have most melee kills to get it. Very annoying. Unless people have a more reliable strategy. I usually just rotate as many other weapons as possible (starting .44, 9mm SMG, 9mm auto, semi .44 hunter, shotgun if you find a decent one) then you just gotta have melee kills at the top by killing 9mm zombies or non ranged fiends before you spawn on the final branch level. AV2 machete pretty much needs to carry you through at least half of the game if you don't get lucky with rare/unique finds. If you don't immediately go to the AV2 melee weapon level branch then it feels like way too much rng if the game lets you find a good melee weapon before you die. During the middle of a run, when you select "Save & quit" from the menu, a file called 'save' is generated in your local files. You can backup and restore this file as you wish. On a technical level things are left pretty much out in the open.
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Aug 24, 2021 03:17
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 welp, guess I'll just die then
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Aug 24, 2021 03:21
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| # ? May 9, 2024 01:19 |
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weapon stats really should reflect boosts from skills and equipment.
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Aug 24, 2021 03:53
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