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TheIncredulousHulk posted:I agree with this bit, certainly Yeah, this is exactly the lying I was talking about. I already spoke to Fool of Sound on the issue the day it happened and they agreed that they misunderstood what I was trying to say. I can discuss this further in PMs, but suffice to say this is the sort of witch hunting that needs to stop.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:34
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Yeah there's simply zero workable way to have a single us focused thread for all discussion. Especially not when big news breaks and dnd ends up with 1000 people posting frantically. And I say this as someone who was deeply skeptical of the breaking threads off of usnews thing. Every spinoff thread I made got literally thousands of posts.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:34
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Main Paineframe posted:"
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Sep 3, 2021 21:34
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Athanatos, are you seriously soliciting mod/IK nominations or just "taking the temperature" of D&D? A few things I'd like to bring up, some of which are probably pretty obvious: The problem threads/topics in D&D mostly center around US politics. We have politics threads for other nations that in the past have generated a ton of reports and headache, then they had dedicated mods/IKs appointed (Guavanaut for the UK, anidav for Australia, and Nenonen for Finland) and they are very effective at keeping their respective threads tidy. You might ask them what they've done that's worked and also see if they have any mod/IK noms. They might not be as invested in US politics and have good suggestions. You're going to have a very hard time finding anyone willing to IK or mod US politics in D&D. D&D and CSPAM mods in particular get a lot of anger directed at them and I imagine it's a rather stressful "job." Two things that might help with that is strong admin backing and possibly an anonymous mod/IK. D&D (and CSPAM!) mods definitely need strong support from Jeff and tthe admins and it would be very helpful to have an admin more or less dedicated to overseeing the politics subforums that combined generate a lot of traffic and a lot of drama. I know anonymous mods are kinda controversial, but if you find some good candidates who are concerned with doxxing or other things, you might offer that as an option. Main Paineframe posted:SA doesn't have politics discussion anymore. It just has politics venting, and then public brawls between people who got into an argument about the venting and decided to nurse a grudge about it for the rest of their lives. and every other interesting discussion topic has fled long ago toward forums with friendlier communities This strikes me as pretty on the nose. A lot of knowledgeable posters have been driven off, D&D has been self-selecting for posters who are really angry and aggro about politics. There was a really interesting research article published just a week ago I'd like to bring up. It uses data from eight studies from in the US and Denmark to look at political hostility online. The authors started out with the hypothesis that the format and environment of online discussion causes politics to get hostile online. Nope! Instead, The Psychology of Online Political Hostility: A Comprehensive, Cross-National Test of the Mismatch Hypothesis posted:https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...94710ED631916E4 Since non-hostile people are driven off, the remaining posters are exposed to more and more hostile messages and it's a self-perpetuating outrage/hostility machine. The answer is stronger norms and enforcement.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:35
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yeah there's simply zero workable way to have a single us focused thread for all discussion. Especially not when big news breaks and dnd ends up with 1000 people posting frantically. And I say this as someone who was deeply skeptical of the breaking threads off of usnews thing. Yeah its the one thing Reddit tree-style discussion methods work: side discussions can be their own branch of discussion without impinging on the original discussion. It also can make it incredibly unreadable and hard to follow though.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:35
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It seems telling that 1/3 of the people posting already are forum banned, some for over a year now, because they can't stop posting their liquid diarrhea takes all over here, and whenever another D&D QCS thread pops up. Incredible "I have been silenced!" posting power. And as much as this thread is about D&D as a whole, it isn't, and everyone knows it isn't: this is a USPOL/NEWS and surrounding threads topic, because 99% of all probes come from those threads. Somehow every other country's megathreads can get their poo poo together and the US can't.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:36
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I mean, D&D is heavily US focused, but we do have a LOT of discussion around EU/South American politics as well, including a lot of posters immediately in the thick of those events.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:38
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Bottom Liner posted:the_steve absolutely needs to be removed from modding US news, they are trigger happy with probing anyone that disagrees with them and have been called out several times for garbage probes of good effort posting. I came here to post this. Otherwise I’m generally pretty happy with D&D modding.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:39
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Solkanar512 posted:Yeah, this is exactly the lying I was talking about. I already spoke to Fool of Sound on the issue the day it happened and they agreed that they misunderstood what I was trying to say. I can discuss this further in PMs, but suffice to say this is the sort of witch hunting that needs to stop. It's not witch hunting to point out that you took a ban+30 for dismissively trying to mansplain people's lived trauma to the metoo thread and nobody should take your opinions on moderation seriously.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:39
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Herstory Begins Now posted:agreed 100% and to piggyback on this: But you knew all this.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:40
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:The poster you're replying to normalized forums grudge being a legitimate basis for moderator action in D&D. The normalized ramping posters on the basis of political opinion. They cheerled thread and forum bans for wrongthink. They normalized harsh punishments against posters for basically being the person in the calm Hitler meme (who isn't Hitler) while mostly letting off the other person in that meme or giving them a slap on the wrist, for being so calm. More than any other D&D mod in like the last five years they are most responsible for creating conditions here where it made sense to make Handsome Ralph and mod and, in turn, where it now makes sense to make Leon Trotsky 2012 a mod (although it appears they're holding out for admin instead). And after they finally, mercifully flamed out like every shithead before them, unlike almost every shithead before them they feel entitled to give their advice on how to run things from time to time and feel that opinion should be taken seriously. And you indulge them.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:40
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VikingofRock posted:I think D&D is at its best when it's informative or sparking an interesting discussion. I've changed my mind several times after reading what is written in this forum, and I think that is awesome. My biggest complaint about D&D at the moment is the level of stressposting and doomposting, which I understand -- we live in a stressful time and the future is bleak, and venting is necessary. But there are a lot of posts whose only purpose seems to be to raise the temperature of the room instead of adding any new information or discussion. The net effect is that some threads don't really seem to discuss problems nor solutions -- they just seem like stress amplification chambers. Unfortunately I don't have a concrete idea of what to do to fix this, since I really do think venting is a psychological necessity, so I don't necessarily think we should ban it. But I wish we could keep the quantity under control a little better. This. Also enforce ramps and tamp down on the stupid hyperbolic bullshit that gets posted by either side. It’s gets loving gross and weird and doesn’t help any discourse or debate or whatever.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:41
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:The poster you're replying to normalized forums grudge being a legitimate basis for moderator action in D&D. The normalized ramping posters on the basis of political opinion. They cheerled thread and forum bans for wrongthink. They normalized harsh punishments against posters for basically being the person in the calm Hitler meme (who isn't Hitler) while mostly letting off the other person in that meme or giving them a slap on the wrist, for being so calm. More than any other D&D mod in like the last five years they are most responsible for creating conditions here where it made sense to make Handsome Ralph and mod and, in turn, where it now makes sense to make Leon Trotsky 2012 a mod (although it appears they're holding out for admin instead). And after they finally, mercifully flamed out like every shithead before them, unlike almost every shithead before them they feel entitled to give their advice on how to run things from time to time and feel that opinion should be taken seriously. And you indulge them. what on earth are you talking about. Go look at posts that got ramped and 99.9% of them are for someone being insufferable or a jackass Ramps have been extremely well received by the community. Forum bans have been extremely well received by the community, because they've only hit people who were long, long term problems. The 'wrongthink' stuff is just bullshit and you know it.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:44
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like you will literally catch hell from the mods in this forum for pointing out that the concentration camps on our border have only grown in size, that the biden admin is pursuing exactly the same policies as the admin he's succeeded including denying them vaccines when we have more than we know what to do with and the same calm collected shitheads who insisted on vbnmw to ameliorate any of this are protected from even having to address that conditions are actually continuing to worsen, by banning or harassing anyone who dares to mention it to them or hold them to their words and somehow promoting a holocaust denier to oversee all this is considered not an earnest request. all you motherfuckers should be made to own what you've become.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:47
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Solkanar512 posted:Yeah, this is exactly the lying I was talking about. I already spoke to Fool of Sound on the issue the day it happened and they agreed that they misunderstood what I was trying to say. I can discuss this further in PMs, but suffice to say this is the sort of witch hunting that needs to stop. Dude you jumped into the #metoo thread to try to discredit a post in which one of the many girls Joe Biden was on camera groping was quoted as saying that he pinched her nipple by bringing up that the twitter account the poster linked(which had no bearing on the story itself) also posted about ivermectin. Your post transparently had no point other than you attempting to muddy the waters to defend a rapist politician you support. It was disgusting and you're just doing the exact song and dance Discendo Vox was talking about to make your behavior mod-palatable even if he almost certainly brought it up in relation to your posting enemies ram dass in hell posted:It's not witch hunting to point out that you took a ban+30 for dismissively trying to mansplain people's lived trauma to the metoo thread and nobody should take your opinions on moderation seriously. It was a ban + week actually lol
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Sep 3, 2021 21:48
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Ramps have been extremely well received by the community. Forum bans have been extremely well received by the community, because they've only hit people who were long, long term problems.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:49
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VikingofRock posted:I think D&D is at its best when it's informative or sparking an interesting discussion. I've changed my mind several times after reading what is written in this forum, and I think that is awesome. My biggest complaint about D&D at the moment is the level of stressposting and doomposting, which I understand -- we live in a stressful time and the future is bleak, and venting is necessary. But there are a lot of posts whose only purpose seems to be to raise the temperature of the room instead of adding any new information or discussion. The net effect is that some threads don't really seem to discuss problems nor solutions -- they just seem like stress amplification chambers. Unfortunately I don't have a concrete idea of what to do to fix this, since I really do think venting is a psychological necessity, so I don't necessarily think we should ban it. But I wish we could keep the quantity under control a little better. The bolded part is super important, because I was arguing with someone here recently who claimed that it is actually impossible to change someone's opinion on the Internet, and they flat out admitted that the only reason they post in D&D is to refine and reinforce their own existing opinions. I don't think D&D can be a healthy space as long as people hold such attitudes and post for the sole purpose of "hearing themselves speak". As the saying goes, it is okay to disagree, but not to be disagreeable. Like you say, what distinguishes this forum from other, more casual politics forums is that a lot of people who post here want to exchange knowledge and insight. The few remaining posters we have who are willing to risk coming forth across as subject matter experts, however, continue to be mocked and trolled and denigrated for the crime of putting enormous amounts of time sharing their knowledge about those subjects. The Media Literacy thread's primary contributor, for example, has been the target of such attacks recently, and it is frankly very gross.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:49
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My biggest issue right now is allowing misinformation to be posted in places like the coronavirus thread and the person doing it being allowed to do so for weeks until finally being threadbanned. Why did it take so long when everyone was asking for this? Leon Trotsky 2012 for mod
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Sep 3, 2021 21:50
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:hilarious that you would say this as though I would forget that you've already driven off anyone who would have opposed it Honestly I figured it went without saying that people ramped and forum banned were not happy with ramps and forum bans as a policy.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:52
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Honestly I figured it went without saying that people ramped and forum banned were not happy with ramps and forum bans as a policy. Everybody inside the curated echo chamber is perfectly happy with the functioning of the curated echo chamber, working as intended. No change required! Honestly, that does make sense, the forum most satisfied with Joe "Nothing Will Fundamentally Change" Biden engages in 'conflict resolution' consisting of eradicating dissent and then pointing to the lack of dissent as a positive.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:53
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Herstory Begins Now posted:what on earth are you talking about. Go look at posts that got ramped and 99.9% of them are for someone being insufferable or a jackass "Well-received by the community" seems to say more about the community than it does the tactic, don't you think? A forum based around argument is getting more and more excited about having a smaller and smaller base of posters to argue with? That seems counterintuitive to the intent of the forum.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:55
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gently caress, I’ll be a mod if it makes these threads and all the endless bitching and the various bullshit ease up.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:55
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Honestly I figured it went without saying that people ramped and forum banned were not happy with ramps and forum bans as a policy. No, no, I for one love being a (male) sexual assault victim threadbanned from the MeToo freespeech zone.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:57
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Solkanar makes an excellent example of the current dynamics in D+D. People venting about things he also cares about are contributing to discussion. People venting about the dismissive treatment of sexual assault, however, is toxic bullying and witch hunting, which can only be explained by the people in question trying to ingratiate themselves to authority. Because he doesn't care about an issue, moderators must stop other people from claiming they do. There's no good fix for this, because as Paineframe says, as long as D+D is a forum for venting about politics, someone else caring about something you don't will be considered a reportable offense.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:58
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Verus posted:No, no, I for one love being a (male) sexual assault victim threadbanned from the MeToo freespeech zone. That what you get for getting mad at a calm Hitler. Totally justified, all of calm Hitler's posting buddies agree.
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Sep 3, 2021 22:00
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Probably Magic posted:"Well-received by the community" seems to say more about the community than it does the tactic, don't you think? A forum based around argument is getting more and more excited about having a smaller and smaller base of posters to argue with? That seems counterintuitive to the intent of the forum. It's a forum based around arguing and, in the process of arguing, learning new things and sometimes finding out you're wrong about stuff. People who just want to yell at others or who just want to poo poo the space up are fundamentally not compatible with that goal. Frankly the ramping probations gives people tons of chances to improve since it usually takes dozens of probations before someone is even considered for a ramp and then usually around 10-15 more probations before a ramp turns into a thread or forum ban. All of which is literally one of the most lenient moderation structures anywhere on the internet. Reddit and twitter are more strictly moderated than that lol Nearly all of the feedback about ramps and forum bans was that they should progress more rapidly, be more strictly applied (eg no more sixering ramped posters, if you're on a ramp and you get sixered, that's another stage of the ramp, which currently often does not happen), and in the case of the latter, be more common. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Sep 3, 2021 |
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Sep 3, 2021 22:01
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I share the same opinion as MSDOS KAPITAL's avatar, Handsome Ralph should be an admin.
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Sep 3, 2021 22:02
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ram dass in hell posted:Everybody inside the curated echo chamber is perfectly happy with the functioning of the curated echo chamber, working as intended. No change required! Honestly, that does make sense, the forum most satisfied with Joe "Nothing Will Fundamentally Change" Biden engages in 'conflict resolution' consisting of eradicating dissent and then pointing to the lack of dissent as a positive. You can say this about the curated echo chamber that causes 99% of the problems in dnd and you run back to when you get told off for being full of poo poo
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Sep 3, 2021 22:03
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Herstory Begins Now posted:All of which is literally one of the most lenient moderation structures anywhere on the internet. Reddit and twitter are more strictly moderated than that lol Bullshit, on Reddit and Twitter you can just make a new account and go right back to posting. Here, as soon as you post something that the mods disagree with, some vindictive mod looks for evidence that you're a rereg and instantly bans you for "evading" your punishment.
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Sep 3, 2021 22:04
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Herstory Begins Now posted:It's a forum based around arguing and, in the process of arguing, learning new things and sometimes finding out you're wrong about stuff. People who just want to yell at others or who just want to poo poo the space up are fundamentally not compatible with that goal. Frankly the ramping probations gives people tons of chances to improve since it usually takes dozens of probations before someone is even considered for a ramp and then usually around 10-15 more probations before a ramp turns into a thread or forum ban. lol I remember you personally ramping me for a couple ticky-tack sixers for light rudeness
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Sep 3, 2021 22:07
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Herstory Begins Now posted:It's a forum based around arguing and, in the process of arguing, learning new things and sometimes finding out you're wrong about stuff. People who just want to yell at others or who just want to poo poo the space up are fundamentally not compatible with that goal. Frankly the ramping probations gives people tons of chances to improve since it usually takes dozens of probations before someone is even considered for a ramp and then usually around 10-15 more probations before a ramp turns into a thread or forum ban.
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Sep 3, 2021 22:07
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500 good dogs posted:Bullshit, on Reddit and Twitter you can just make a new account and go right back to posting. Here, as soon as you post something that the mods disagree with, some vindictive mod looks for evidence that you're a rereg and instantly bans you for "evading" your punishment. You can on SA, too, just you probably want to stay away from the thread that literally just tossed you out lol. TBH SA would catch like 99% fewer reregs if people didn't turn up on a 5 post account to the exact same threads to continue the exact same arguments with the exact same posting voice.
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Sep 3, 2021 22:07
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Handsome Ralph is the worst D&D mod I've seen so far. 90% of the time I see a lovely, clearly ideologically motivated probe I can guess it's by Ralph. He also does these ridiculous Old GBS Mod -style assertions of authority, which is just loving embarrassing. Get rid of the guy. Raneir Salazar was suggested, he's a dreadful poster, please don't make that guy a mod. D&D doesn't need new mods imo, just dump the bad one and do less probations overall. Dapper Swindler seems like a reasonable guy so if you gotta have an extra mod, he's not a bad choice I guess.
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Sep 3, 2021 22:12
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Herstory Begins Now posted:You can on SA, too, just you probably want to stay away from the thread that literally just tossed you out lol. TBH SA would catch like 99% fewer reregs if people didn't turn up on a 5 post account to the exact same threads to continue the exact same arguments with the exact same posting voice. So let me get this straight, you believe SomethingAwful has "literally one of the most lenient moderation structures anywhere on the internet" compared to Twitter and Reddit where you can literally post for free, and where bans have no teeth whatsoever, somewhere that upon punishment you can just make a new account and go right back to posting? And yet there are posters in this exact thread who have rap sheets where you've given them probations for being too mean or not adhering strictly enough to  ?
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Sep 3, 2021 22:13
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Herstory Begins Now posted:It's a forum based around arguing and, in the process of arguing, learning new things and sometimes finding out you're wrong about stuff. People who just want to yell at others or who just want to poo poo the space up are fundamentally not compatible with that goal. Frankly the ramping probations gives people tons of chances to improve since it usually takes dozens of probations before someone is even considered for a ramp and then usually around 10-15 more probations before a ramp turns into a thread or forum ban. That doesn't really address my central point about the insularity of the forum. You're not probing the people who "don't want to figure out they're wrong about stuff," that's everyone in this forum, me and you included, you're probing the people who get the most reports from the forum regulars and then citing the celebrations of those forum regulars as "mission accomplished." That's not great. That creates an echo chamber where if someone says the Uyghurs aren't getting genocided, they get banned, but people who say kids aren't getting separated in cages at the border or who say nobody died at Catholic residential schools get a day to six hours respectively. That last one happened under your watch, and to be fair to that unnamed poster, they were just being naïve as opposed to malicious, but that comes down to an arbitrary judgement of poster instead of anything objective.
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Sep 3, 2021 22:15
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:The bolded part is super important, because I was arguing with someone here recently who claimed that it is actually impossible to change someone's opinion on the Internet, and they flat out admitted that the only reason they post in D&D is to refine and reinforce their own existing opinions. I don't think D&D can be a healthy space as long as people hold such attitudes and post for the sole purpose of "hearing themselves speak". As the saying goes, it is okay to disagree, but not to be disagreeable. That poster was me, and unsurprisingly you didn't understand what I was talking about at the time and still don't now, but I'll restate it again just to be clear: you can't and shouldn't assume you are changing hearts and minds because you make posts on Something Awful. Posting here, or on twitter, or anywhere really, is an entirely personal action. Maybe someone will change their mind based on any of a million things, and maybe one of those things will be a post you made, but you can't and shouldn't assume this. You won't make the world better by posting about it. This is all a longwinded way to say: posting isn't praxis. Surely you've heard that phrase somewhere before? Convincing yourself otherwise is both bad for discussion and, let's be frank here, probably pretty bad for your mental health. I, personally, don't think I am turning people into communists by posting in D&D, but I am having my arguments challenged directly and think that can be a useful exercise in self-improvement. I remember this specific event very well because it was in the thread where I had shared that I was sexually assaulted and you threw a fit because I was not nice enough to you in talking about it. How's that for "being disagreeable"!
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Sep 3, 2021 22:18
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1) people should be getting banned for saying there isn't a uighur genocide 2) Assuming we're thinking of the same guy, that guy got a ban before an admin literally unbanned him and wrote a loving apology to the guy before we yelled at various people until he was rebanned and reprobated. That latter debacle was and remains immensely infuriating because i have relatives who were in residential schools and it was one of the several main reasons I walked away. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Sep 3, 2021 |
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Sep 3, 2021 22:19
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Honestly I figured it went without saying that people ramped and forum banned were not happy with ramps and forum bans as a policy. so no, not everyone other than the directly prohibited from posting here, are dissatisfied with d&d. some of us just saw the writing on the wall before you all got around to making it official for us specifically MSDOS KAPITAL fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 3, 2021 |
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Sep 3, 2021 22:22
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Also, as someone who posts much more regularly in CSPAM than D&D these days, I don't think anyone who is a CSPAM regular should complain about D&D's "insularity". When I post in CSPAM I regularly get called names like "dipshit lib" and told to gently caress off simply on the basis that I'm a D&D regular, despite the fact that my opinions are fairly aligned with that forum at large (with the exception of a few specific topics). My current red text is the latest product of that. In contrast, nobody in D&D has done anything remotely similar, where they go through my post history and find objectionable CSPAM posts and viciously attack me for them.
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Sep 3, 2021 22:25
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Less being an rear end to each other to try and make your point seem better and the person you quote worse and more suggestions of people that can help the issues you are putting forward. Even if the person isn't the end all be all solution, people that are willing to listen and understand D&D. And yes, I understand that simply throwing mods no matter who they are does not solve some of the problems mentioned, but we are one step at a time here. My current issue is getting mods that the community has input in. If you agree with them or not, places need mods and to put a forum this size at the feet of like 3 people is lovely.
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Sep 3, 2021 22:26
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