|
Thorn Wishes Talon posted:When I post in CSPAM I regularly get called names like "dipshit lib" and told to gently caress off simply on the basis that I'm a D&D regular, despite the fact that my opinions are fairly aligned with that forum at large This keeps happening because you're a dipshit lib and many people disagree with your opinions and don't think they are aligned fwiw
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 22:51 |
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:1) people should be getting banned for saying there isn't a uighur genocide I don't think we are thinking of the same person, but relitigating various forum sins seems like a bad direction to turn this thread and I apologize for pushing it there. I'd rather make my thoughts on the generalities of the forum as opposed to particulars.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:28
|
|
|
Athanatos posted:Less being an rear end to each other to try and make your point seem better and the person you quote worse and more suggestions of people that can help the issues you are putting forward. Even if the person isn't the end all be all solution, people that are willing to listen and understand D&D. You need an admin from the politics forums way more than dnd needs a new mod. Possibly plural, if having politics forums is important to jeff's vision for SA. And dnd very desperately could use some new mods.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:29
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:1) people should be getting banned for saying there isn't a uighur genocide This ban was bullshit. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?goto=post&postid=516651696&noseen=1 It is exceedingly hard to discuss what is happening in China when anything less than the official us party line leads to an immediate ban.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:32
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:That poster was me, and unsurprisingly you didn't understand what I was talking about at the time and still don't now, but I'll restate it again just to be clear: you can't and shouldn't assume you are changing hearts and minds because you make posts on Something Awful. Posting here, or on twitter, or anywhere really, is an entirely personal action. Maybe someone will change their mind based on any of a million things, and maybe one of those things will be a post you made, but you can't and shouldn't assume this. You won't make the world better by posting about it. This is all a longwinded way to say: posting isn't praxis. Surely you've heard that phrase somewhere before? Convincing yourself otherwise is both bad for discussion and, let's be frank here, probably pretty bad for your mental health. Again, the pattern recurs: the current doctrine of D+D holds that other people caring about a thing you don't care about is an issue moderators are expected to solve. This leads to truly horrific results when the thing a poster would like not to hear is "believe victims."
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:36
|
|
|
One ongoing problem d&d has had is that everything ends up in uspol (renaming it usnews didnt help). Admins have tried to fix this before, see exmarx in 2016, but it always ends up right back in one thread. One thing cspam does well is sectioning things off. If you just wanna laugh at republicans and their lovely handwriting, there's a thread for that, and a different thread for yelling at democrats. in d&d it all goes the same place.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:36
|
|
|
Pamela Springstein posted:This ban was bullshit. Grand Theft Autobot posted:Yeah, a much better argument is that there is actually no evidence of a genocide in Xinjiang.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:39
|
|
|
I would like to see D&D modding dispense with ineffectual things like human word filters and posters getting several years of useless sixers before they are *gasp* threadbanned into harassing yet more threads. Until then, being appointed mod of D&D is more a punishment than anything. I'm almost suspicious of anyone who would want to mod D&D because the only conceivable use of the six-hour probe at this point is to settle arguments. This is the forum of people spending $10 to own each others' accounts, ignore threadbans, re-regging, and so on. No one pauses at a sixer or even a day off.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:40
|
|
|
Pamela Springstein posted:One thing cspam does well is sectioning things off. If you just wanna laugh at republicans and their lovely handwriting, there's a thread for that, and a different thread for yelling at democrats. in d&d it all goes the same place. This is basically what I wanted to say. Let's have a GOP LOL thread, a Dems are a waste thread, and a usnews thread. Also, timezones should be a factor in choosing new mods, either that or lock USPOL (which is what USNEWS is, even if it's not supposed to be) from midnight to six (or deputize a mod from another sub forum to come in and dispense a few sixers on obviously shitters.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:44
|
|
|
Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Also, as someone who posts much more regularly in CSPAM than D&D these days, I don't think anyone who is a CSPAM regular should complain about D&D's "insularity". When I post in CSPAM I regularly get called names like "dipshit lib" and told to gently caress off simply on the basis that I'm a D&D regular, despite the fact that my opinions are fairly aligned with that forum at large (with the exception of a few specific topics). My current red text is the latest product of that. A) CSPAM doesn't pretend not to be an insular forum. B) You are not banned from any thread, you only have one probation from CSPAM, and pretty much anyone can post in CSPAM without getting ramp or anything like that. It's the shitposting forum, what do you expect.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:44
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:1) people should be getting banned for saying there isn't a uighur genocide do you think someone pushing back against a claim that we are committing genocide on our border, will be banned in d&d do you think if someone cites the appeal referenced in this tweet as evidence that we are committing genocide, and then subsequently someone denies that is evidence of genocide, that the second person will be banned or disciplined in any way do you think if I post a doctored picture of a schoolyard in xinjiang province as evidence of genocide, and someone denies that as sufficient evidence, that that person will receive the same treatment? 
MSDOS KAPITAL fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Sep 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:48
|
|
|
Oh my god I don't care about CSPAM in the D&D Mod thread. Read things you enjoy and don't waste your time on bullshit in life. Value your time.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:50
|
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:https://twitter.com/SalamaVeronica/status/1430365891766665217 Isn't that literally one of the main things discussed in the immigration thread? I don't see that thread generating bans or even many probes at all?
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:51
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:That poster was me, and unsurprisingly you didn't understand what I was talking about at the time and still don't now, but I'll restate it again just to be clear: you can't and shouldn't assume you are changing hearts and minds because you make posts on Something Awful. Posting here, or on twitter, or anywhere really, is an entirely personal action. Maybe someone will change their mind based on any of a million things, and maybe one of those things will be a post you made, but you can't and shouldn't assume this. You won't make the world better by posting about it. This is all a longwinded way to say: posting isn't praxis. Surely you've heard that phrase somewhere before? Convincing yourself otherwise is both bad for discussion and, let's be frank here, probably pretty bad for your mental health. This isn't the first time you have suggested I misunderstood you, so in an effort to respond in good faith, let me elaborate, as I think it is pertinent to this thread. If memory serves, the entire disagreement came about when you (or someone else, I don't remember) posted something in a very aggressive and inflammatory tone, and I responded with "okay but you aren't going to convince anyone by personally attacking them like this, no matter how valid you think your opinion is, in fact it'll make them dig in more which is counter-productive." I immediately got accused of tone-policing, and you specifically responded with "nobody should assume they are going to change hearts and minds when they post anyway, and I personally post here to prepare me for real-life conversations, which is what actually matter" or something along those lines. Which... misses the point entirely. Just because you cannot assume that you'll change someone's opinions when arguing with them on the Internet doesn't mean you shouldn't at least make the effort, and part of that is posting in a non-aggro manner and modifying your delivery to make your message more likely to be accepted — even if it doesn't change opinions. The other part of the effort comes from the fact that doing so is difficult when it's a topic that is very important and personal to you. If you want to mock that as "decorum" go ahead, but I think at the end of the day everyone can benefit from things being less heated.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:52
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:You need an admin from the politics forums way more than dnd needs a new mod. Possibly plural, if having politics forums is important to jeff's vision for SA. Absolutely loving not.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:55
|
|
|
fart_man_69 posted:Absolutely loving not. Which part here? The admins, the Politics Important to SA, or the new mods? I mean, I guess "D&D needs no new mods" is a viable argument one can make.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:57
|
|
|
Athanatos posted:Less being an rear end to each other to try and make your point seem better and the person you quote worse and more suggestions of people that can help the issues you are putting forward. Even if the person isn't the end all be all solution, people that are willing to listen and understand D&D. People being asses to each other as a substitute for actually having a goddamned conversation is a D&D-wide problem just as much as it's a feedback-area problem. Ath, I really do honestly appreciate that you willingly go out of your way to come sound out the politics forums and try to pay some admin attention to them. But considering how heated the politics forums get, as well as how much trouble and controversy originates from them, I think there really does need to be an actual politics admin. Not just someone who comes to take the temperature every now and then, but someone who is overall responsible for knowing the communities and the mods, someone who's keeping an eye on things all the time. Someone who's involved on a day-to-day basis, not just when QCS threads pop up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:57
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:Isn't that literally one of the main things discussed in the immigration thread? I don't see that thread generating bans or even many probes at all? In other words, how do you think my offering evidence that we aren't committing genocide on our southern border would be received, versus offering evidence that China is not genociding Muslims in Xinjiang. MSDOS KAPITAL fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Sep 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 22:57
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:People being asses to each other as a substitute for actually having a goddamned conversation is a D&D-wide problem just as much as it's a feedback-area problem.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:00
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:You need an admin from the politics forums way more than dnd needs a new mod. Possibly plural, if having politics forums is important to jeff's vision for SA. Main Paineframe posted:People being asses to each other as a substitute for actually having a goddamned conversation is a D&D-wide problem just as much as it's a feedback-area problem. I strongly agree with this. My impression is that every one of the current admins dislikes if not outright hates reading the politics forums (several have outright said so in the past), but they are the ones who end up having to review and approve anything longer than a 24-hour probation, which significantly increases the chance that bad probations get rubber-stamped and justified probations get declined. They are also the ones who need to deal with the mess when things blow up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:03
|
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:elevating a d&d mod to admin will effectively continue the work you started in d&d and apply it to the entire forum of cspam. not surprised you're in favor of it. I don't care if Jeffrey elevates a D&D mod to admin, elevates a C-SPAN mod to admin, or hell, elevates a loving Coupons IK to admin. There just needs to be someone on the admin team who knows what's going on in D&D and C-SPAM without having to ask the D&D and C-SPAM mods to explain it to them. And ideally, they'd be able to keep an eye on what the mods are up to in D&D and C-SPAM without people having to kick up a huge fuss to get admin attention first. Also, out of curiosity, is it possible for you to stop being a giant rear end in a top hat and just raging at everyone? I understand you're mad all your avatar purchases got rolled back, but being this pissed about it just comes off as sad.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:05
|
|
|
D&d’s problem is it now identifies as being ‘not c-spam’ rather than having any real ideology. Hence the obsession with ‘polite conversation’. 2021 is not a polite world. There are no polite answers. It is how posters like ‘how r u’ have burrowed in like a tick. He posts to get under the skin of leftists but he’s very polite and reasonable. Intent, apparently, means nothing. I’m hardly a fan of c-spam, it’s like a parody of lf infested with yospos types who discovered politics in 2016. But, they’re trying. They at least seem to understand the magnitude of the problems facing humanity. If this place wants to be an alternative to c-spam it needs to actually tackle issues as adults. No game playing, no false politeness. Admit there are huge problems caused by the current political framework that will not always have peaceful solutions. Be the forum that admits things are really poo poo right now but, here’s the important part, doesn’t immediately give in to despair and throw in the towel. If you must define yourself by what you are not then become the ‘non-nihilist’ politics forum. As for mods I have no ideas. The current posting climate makes it impossible to tell who’s serious. I would suggest ignoring all the ones obviously suggested for the reason of ‘punishing’ c-spam.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:06
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Ath, I really do honestly appreciate that you willingly go out of your way to come sound out the politics forums and try to pay some admin attention to them. But considering how heated the politics forums get, as well as how much trouble and controversy originates from them, I think there really does need to be an actual politics admin. Not just someone who comes to take the temperature every now and then, but someone who is overall responsible for knowing the communities and the mods, someone who's keeping an eye on things all the time. Someone who's involved on a day-to-day basis, not just when QCS threads pop up. Yeah seconding "we need a politics admin, probably two." I'm not saying promote a D&D mod to admin necessarily, but SA needs an admin or two who pays close attention to the politics subforums and actively wants to read and oversee them. D&D and CSPAM combined are a huge chunk of the traffic on SA and a major source of forums drama. As I recall Cyrano was pretty politics-savvy but welp. That said, god help the poor souls who try to be politics admins. They need strong backing from Jeff to be effective.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:06
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:Isn't that literally one of the main things discussed in the immigration thread? I don't see that thread generating bans or even many probes at all? Ever since someone told Handsome Ralph he couldn't keep probating people for using the words "concentration camp" to describe the facilities universally referred to as concentration camps prior to January 2021, yes. Most posters in D+D stopped caring about concentration camps, and therefore, it was viewed as necessary for moderators to deal with the people who still did.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:07
|
|
|
Regarde Aduck posted:D&d’s problem is it now identifies as being ‘not c-spam’ rather than having any real ideology. How do you argue that D&D doesn't have "any real ideology" if you will literally be given probation for saying "democrat party"? Edit: vvvvv everything this fella said vvvvv
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:09
|
|
|
Agents are GO! posted:This is basically what I wanted to say. Let's have a GOP LOL thread, a Dems are a waste thread, and a usnews thread. This sounds like a good idea, if it was possible to have a USNews thread without people going to war about the news posted in there. I don't know how to achieve that, people seem to dislike "cordoning" subjects to separate threads, and I can see why though I don't always agree with it. For example, moving the Afghanistan discussion to its own thread seems perfectly fine to me but some people complained about it? Idk, just stop probing posters for criticizing the loving Democrats lol. Also forum and threadbans are mostly bullshit. Stop exiling people because they disagree with the Handsome Ralph and Herstory consensus.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:09
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Also, out of curiosity, is it possible for you to stop being a giant rear end in a top hat and just raging at everyone? I understand you're mad all your avatar purchases got rolled back, but being this pissed about it just comes off as sad.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:11
|
|
|
Athanatos posted:Which part here? The admin and new mods parts. I do not want ideologically motivated mods like Ralph to have even more power on the forums. It's going to suck for everyone but the D&D crew who want to annihilate their posting enemies. Edit: fool_of_sound is a fine mod as far as I can tell, I don't dislike all of them, but I don't get what benefit having a politics admin would bring. There's a good chance they're just going to enforce their particular political bias even more widely. D&D mods can already enact rules in this forum, ban people etc. Why do they need an admin? fart_man_69 fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Sep 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:12
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:I don't care if Jeffrey elevates a D&D mod to admin, elevates a C-SPAN mod to admin, or hell, elevates a loving Coupons IK to admin. There just needs to be someone on the admin team who knows what's going on in D&D and C-SPAM without having to ask the D&D and C-SPAM mods to explain it to them. And ideally, they'd be able to keep an eye on what the mods are up to in D&D and C-SPAM without people having to kick up a huge fuss to get admin attention first. You were the moderator who established D+D is the sole forum on Something Awful where you can safely accuse a rape victim of making up the story of her assault for money, and that anyone treating that accusation with insufficient deference must be punished. Some posters cared about sexual assault, some did not, and you made the active decision to side with the rape apologia brigade, on the grounds that this preserved the kind of forum you wanted D+D to be. Politely, your ability to look down on anyone else's behavior is limited.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:12
|
|
|
Chiming in to agree with the suggestion that the SA politics forums need a dedicated admin or two.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:12
|
|
|
fart_man_69 posted:The admin and new mods parts. I do not want ideologically motivated mods like Ralph to have even more power on the forums. It's going to suck for everyone but the D&D crew who want to annihilate their posting enemies. Well, the point of this thread is to help me find mods who the people who post in D&D do not find ideologically motivated. So when I add new mods it's not just blind or people that are all cut from the same exact cloth of opinion.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:14
|
|
|
Athanatos posted:Well, the point of this thread is to help me find mods who the people who post in D&D do not find ideologically motivated. I do really appreciate the effort and the engagement, and I want to pull this thread a little bit if that's okay - "mods who the people who post in D&D do not find ideologically motivated." Is this realistic as a goal? What kind of person would read D&D enough to competently moderate it while not being ideologically motivated? Many people feel they are moderate, non-political, and so on, while representing deeply entrenched ideology that they've never had the time, awareness, and/or inclination to examine. Is it possible for D&D as a forum to feel like anyone participating is not ideologically motivated?
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:18
|
|
|
Athanatos posted:Oh my god I don't care about CSPAM in the D&D Mod thread. The fact that this thread is getting overrun with people who have multiple dozens of "don't be such an rear end in a top hat" probes, who are screaming at you that you shouldn't have more mods probating people for being real about our problems in 2021 (i.e., being giant assholes to everyone who disagrees with them), and are being giant assholes about it in this very thread, should let you know exactly why you need more mods and more admins in D&D. Literally no one who cares about moderation policy in D&D follows the advice you posted.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:19
|
|
|
A politics admin would be good because past admin actions in the politics forums have been... less than pacifying. Someone who actively wants to read politics posts seems like the last person you want doing that though? Which goes back to the ideas of neutrality.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:20
|
|
|
Ralph has actually been quite fantastic. I appreciate that they put out fires quickly, sometimes even proactively, and have a no-nonsense attitude. I don't agree with all of their moderation decisions — for example, sometimes they'll come in and probate posters on both sides of a heated argument, rather than those who have instigated it with inflammatory posting. But that's more of a policy disagreement than anything. We could use more like Ralph.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:21
|
|
|
Athanatos posted:Well, the point of this thread is to help me find mods who the people who post in D&D do not find ideologically motivated. For all that I clearly disagree with Paineframe on a great many things, he nailed it when he laid out why this is a doomed exercise. This is a forum for venting about politics, for people who are not comfortable in C-SPAM for one reason or another. As such, the job of its moderators is to preserve it as a space people are comfortable to vent, and nothing makes venting more uncomfortable than someone who disagrees with the premise about which you are venting, or argues the thing you are venting about is somehow less important than their preferred topic. The cast of characters of the politics forums are a bunch of very frustrated people trying to let out their frustrations, and in so doing exert a tiny fragment of control over an insignificant space on the internet. Getting someone who was ideologically neutral, insofar as such a thing exists, would only serve to make them promptly hated, because easily 90%+ of the reports this forum generates are indistinguishable from "this person disagrees with me, please get rid of them," and will continue to be so as long as those are the people the forum serves. To rip off the old joke, the problem is not that you have the wrong kind of moderators, it's that you have the wrong kind of userbase.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:22
|
|
|
Athanatos posted:Well, the point of this thread is to help me find mods who the people who post in D&D do not find ideologically motivated. If you put it in these terms, then you give the users opposed to functional moderation an opportunity to sabotage any candidate suggested.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:24
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:there are a lot of people who simply do not give a gently caress whether their posting aligns with observable reality anymore Right, but they're not regular posters in D&D. They just swoop in to aggressively poo poo in threads that fail to confirm their preferred narrative, regardless of how reality-based that narrative is, and when the mod response should be "cut that out now" followed by ramping probations for repeatedly disrupting threads, the response we actually get is "you know there's an ignore function, right?" Enforce the rules as they already exist, and force people to take a break when it's clear they're trying to dictate the path of a thread, and you'll see an improvement.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:26
|
|
|
ram dass in hell posted:I do really appreciate the effort and the engagement, and I want to pull this thread a little bit if that's okay - In my opinion you are never going to find some perfect loving unicorn of mod who is fair and balanced to all sides. Mods are humans and have different interpretations of posts and words and feelings. I mean gently caress, I do it. I'll say some mod poo poo, then get a PM with the person explaining what the gently caress and realize I hosed it up. My hope is to add enough mods who dont all want to be exactly the same, who may even butt heads a little with poo poo, and come to decisions that are for the most part fine. I'm not looking for perfection or even for D&D to be some bastion of fair and even probations. I want people to enjoy the places they are (why are you here if that's not true), and find people who can make decisions that understand that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 22:51 |
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:This is a forum for venting about politics Yeah, this is the essential problem. A lot of posters see this as the place for venting about politics, and venting about people means going "gently caress you for wanting to discuss it, obviously you don't take it seriously enough". A lot of posters see this as the place for talking about and getting informed about politics, and react to people venting by going "gently caress you for not wanting to discuss it, obviously you don't take it seriously enough". As long as every thread in D&D is trying to be both of those things to both of those groups, D&D will be lovely as hell.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2021 23:27
|
|