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I've read 10 or so Midkemia books, and I wanted to add that I agree with Purple that Jimmy the Hand was very poor. I was genuinely shocked by how bad it was. Every other Feist book I have read was good to great, including the other two collaborations around the same time, Murder in LaMut and Honoured Enemy.
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Sep 10, 2021 14:40
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PurpleXVI posted:Okay so. Feist is generally pretty "fade to black" if there's some sort of sexual content going on, and in general there's very little horny in what he writes(that I've read, at least). But then Jimmy the Hand just kicks down the door and starts screaming "YEAH JIMMY'S BEEN FUCKIN' SINCE HE COULD BARELY WALK. BANGING ALL THESE OLDER LADIES. HELL YEAH. KNEE DEEP IN GILF VAGINAS. drat, HE'S SUCH A PLAYER." and it just kind of made me recoil at the time, so I've had no temptation whatsoever to re-read it to double-check the details. I don't really remember the... explicit parts. I remember a few sex scenes, but it was with a young girl who was a prostitute while Jimmy was a thief and who was integral to the plot. Like you, though, I just found it badly written and amateurish. Again, don't let that put you off any of his other novels, especially the early ones. Even the two other side-story novels are very good. Xerophyte posted:Pretty sure it's Feist's homebrew high school and university D&D setting, yes. Apparently he stole the asian invaders wholesale from a D&D-contemporary 70s RPG (Empire of the Petal Throne)? Anyhow, Pug and Thomas were reportedly based on his and his best friend's characters which is why they are among the blandest and most generic protagonists in fantasy literature; no mean feat. I was aware that it was based on his personal RPG experiences and I assumed that the other main antagonist civilisation was based off of something that iI have not heard of, but that remark about Pug and Thomas is one of the dumbest opinions I've heard on the Internet - no mean feat. JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Sep 11, 2021 |
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Sep 11, 2021 02:46
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Darkness at Sethanon, which is the climax of the first, arguably second, story arc in the novels, is indeed where Locklear has to go from naïve spoiled rich country boy to hardened veteran pretty quickly. After Sethanon, the next novels in that canon, at least in release order, are set 20+ years later and involve Arutha's sons. Jimmy and Locklear carry over into those to various degrees although Arutha himself is basically retired to the simple life... as prince of half the bloody kingdom, but he's not fighting anymore false prophets to save the world. Arutha has a fairly good arc in Silverthorn and Sethanon where he goes from just trying to save the lives of those he loves to genuinely realising that he has some destiny. I didn't really love that. He was always portrayed as a pragmatist and somewhat reluctant leader and having him buy into a prophecy, even one that proved true, seemed rather contrived. The Murmandamus reveal fell slightly flat to me as well, at least initially. That he was a false prophet I found a good twist and appropriately ironic, but the pantathian thing was a bit of a damp squib at first. However, if one payed close enough attention to the ancient lore, and it's easy to miss because there is a lot, the panthathians were actually a death cult who would do anything to bring back their former masters and Murmandamus played the 'evil races' for suckers, big time, in order go et to the big magical Maguffin at Sethanon. I will add that I did not realise that the dark elves were greatly weakened after Sethanon. I suppose that I should have, given the death toll, but I always assumed that they just went back to living in the northern mountains or southern forests. Perhaps it was in a book that I haven't read. They were definitely not the friends of the Tsurani during the war. The kingdom people would provoke the Tsuranni and the dark elves to fight, and the book 'Honoured Enemy' is all about the kingdom and Tsurani forces barely managing to work together to save themselves from the Moredhel. (spoilered just to be safe) I actually did not know that this game had been novelised. I will try to read it right after this LP ends.
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Sep 11, 2021 04:00
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Psion posted:cmon. this is needlessly hostile, it's okay to just say "I don't agree with that take" or ask why or even to let it slide rather than this I answered a ridiculously hyperbolic statement with another one. If you had said 'I think that Pug and Thomas are rather bland' I would have replied 'I don't think so'. They certainly aren't Amos Trask, but let's just agree to disagree. On the Pug/Thomas thing, and I don't want to spoil too much about them in case this LP motivates anyone to read the books, perhaps I haven't read deep enough into the later works. I quite liked the humble origins to demigods, and I liked that Silverthorn & Sethanon had the larger-than-life P&T doing the impossible in another world while Arutha and friends took care of the more practical things in the world that they know. For example, I quite like that in Silverthorn Thomas flatly states theat he won't journey with them because he has a family of his own to think about and a nation to run, but when trouble comes to his door he's a proper badarse. I feel like those two demigods were fairly well phased out in the second generation/20 years later books, but again you lads might be referencing even later works. I have hundreds of books that I have not read on top of the Feist books that I have not read, so there is a lot that I have not seen. I will say that one trope in fantasy literature I am absolutely bloody sick of is that of prophecies. That was my least favourite part of Silverthorn and especially Sethanon - I didn't like it in DS9 either, and I was quite fond of that show. Fiction books and games need to pack that poo poo in and just have people who care taking steps to keep bad poo poo from happening and stop pretending that it was foretold in the stars or some such claptrap.
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Sep 11, 2021 17:13
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Xerophyte posted:Hey! That was my ridiculous statement, not Psion's. I apologise for my mis-directed snark; I did not realise until just now that it was the wrong target. I'm a world-class piss-taker myself but, no, I was not taking it personally, I genuinely just get tired of ludicrous hyperbole and unsupported opinions and responded with some of my own to try and point out how disporportionate the original comment was. I actually don't see much of a difference between both kinds of hyperbolic snark, but we will indeed agree to disagree. In any event, let's forget this and look forward to another fine Purple LP. I never played this is a lad and, while I do have the games on GOG they are buried in my backlog. I think that I will enjoy the writing in this one even though it looks perhaps too janky for my tastes, but if Purple has proven anything it's that he's nothing if not patient and can make chicken salad out of chicken poo poo. Held og lykke Purple! The above was my best attempt at bon courage! in Danish. It is most likely wrong and apologies to any Danes offended by same. JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Sep 11, 2021 |
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Sep 11, 2021 18:35
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Feist never really clarifies how magic works in his, well, works nor does he codify the rules like D&D, and I am absolutely fine with that. It preserves the mystery.
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Sep 14, 2021 02:05
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I just want to say that I am once again entirely in favour of the time-honoured tradition of doing every possible side activity before moving on with the bloody plot. Only way to play.Night10194 posted:I honestly prefer that they don't try to explain the exact mechanics of magic primarily because magic's existence and use in the various political struggles of the setting tends to be more important than the magic itself, especially in Betrayal. It's just a tool, it exists, magicians are an important resource and a part of politics and it takes a fair bit of training and intellectual curiosity to master it (like Owyn wants to), and then they go from there and get on with it. It worked well for the sort of story they're shooting for. I agree with this very much. It's more, well, magical if it's not codified down to the last d8 or what have you. However, there is definitely an element of 'inherent gift'. Milamber/Pug seems to be very much an innate talent originally in the wrong place, and even though his friend Hochopepa is characterised fat and lazy he is still a very dangerous man if he wants to be. Magic is very politicised, though. In Midkemia most magicians are treated with suspicion at best and as total outcasts at worst. On Kelewan, they are literally above the law because of... let's call it a great service in the distant past. A magician can literally walk anywhere and say 'give me that' and it has to be done. When Pug built his home on Kelewan, his method for doing so was to go to a rich moneylender and demand a huge sum of money to build a villa. The moneylender gets the money back from the imperial government, but it was easier for Pug than hiring contracters. Pug also is disbarred from the Assembly on Kelewan for certain extreme actions and, while he is still an insanely powerful mother fucker, he is stripped of his privileges as a Great One for a while. I'm being deliberately vague in these lore posts because I want to get people intrigued enough to read the books, which I consider very good, but I don't want to totally spoil. JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Sep 15, 2021 |
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Sep 15, 2021 02:38
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DGM_2 posted:This is a fair point. I change my vote to match that of the Shadow Minister for Sensible Gaming
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Sep 16, 2021 00:56
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When Purple mentioned finding a blue shell, I immediately thought 'Is that used to stun the most powerful enemy in a battle'? Speaking of Draken-Smokey, does this game remind anyone else of Drakkhen, that French RPG that came out around the same time?
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Sep 24, 2021 02:28
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Does the game even hint at any point, for example saying 'Trolls have very sensitive ears' or some such?
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Sep 25, 2021 02:42
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Guildenstern Mother posted:If they do its buried in a paragraph about something else entirely I rather like that this game is relatively verbose. That wasn't terribly common back in its era, and I enjoy the writing style. I've never minded a lot of reading in gaming or indeed any walk of life, so this is right up my street. Please do this, Purple. I want to see some Melty Minds. This is supposed to be a completionist LP, after all. (guilt, guilt)
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Sep 25, 2021 16:25
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I didn't get the riddle with BLADE as the answer Also, I just now realised how ridiculous the PC portraits look.
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Oct 1, 2021 03:22
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Xerophyte posted:B is the first letter of Blessed, L is the second letter of Slow, and so on. Ah, I see. I thought that it was a reference to a video game series at the time that I did not know about.
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Oct 1, 2021 14:56
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quote:Sarth has a good deal of backstory to it! It's an old robber baron fortress converted into an Ishapian chapel dedicated to knowledge, where they're transcribing, cataloguing and storing texts of all kinds. It mostly features in Silverthorn, where, while travelling north, Arutha and his gang are harried by Nighthawks and a weird, demonic abomination that attempts to hunt them from the skies. Taking refuge at Sarth, the monks give them magical cover and the lead priest uses a magical amulet to enchant Arutha's rapier, turning it into a potent artifact that can do damage to even demonic creatures. It's also noteworthy, to me, for being the worst-written part of that entire book, it feels so clunky. No way to do this without seeming pedantic, but this is not entirely true. At Sarth, Arutha finds a thin lead on Silverthorn and the monks give him an amulet that he wears around his neck. This amulet makes him immune to magical divination so that The Enemy can't find him easily. At the end of Darkness at Sethanon, Pug melds the amulet to Arutha's rapier so that he can fight the big bad guy. I never had a problem with this section of the book except that there is a major fight that seems slightly like a climactic moment too early, but I would like to know why you think it 'clunky'. This section does contain some incredibly good Jimmy dialogue that shouldn't be missed, though.
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Oct 6, 2021 17:43
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PurpleXVI posted:Oh, no, that's perfectly fine pedantry, because I literally cannot keep track of what happened in Silverthorn and what happened in Darkness At Sethanon, since they start out extremely similarly with a Nighthawk attack and then a secret departure from Krondor on the part of Jimmy, Arutha, etc. Now that I think about it, Silverthorn and Darkness at Sethanon do repeat some themes. I never minded the fight at the Abbey just because Jimmy's lines are solid gold.
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Oct 6, 2021 20:12
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Perhaps the dog was gravely ill and the stress of the fight sent him to the boneyard.
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Oct 14, 2021 01:37
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I belive that the Lysle/James thing is intimating that (minor lore spoiler) both are sons of the Upright Man. This is confirmed during a face-to-face meeting in Silverthorn. The Upright Man says this to Arutha who agrees to keep quiet; James has no idea how his father is, though he did occasionally remark that he seemed to get away with poo poo that most people couldn't. Not completely, though... in this same meeting, Arutha has to bargain for Jimmy's life because Jimmy broke one of the unpardonable rules of the guild. It's one of my favourite scenes. An another note... Purple, sometimes I think that we didn't read the same books.
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Oct 20, 2021 03:35
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The problem with most RPGs is that a nearly dead enemy is as dangerous as a fully healthy one, so spells that kill slowly but are more efficient... aren't, really. Debuffs and over-time effects work well in games with longer fights, but that's not the majority.
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Oct 26, 2021 00:26
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MagusofStars posted:Interestingly, that's not the case here. Enemies suffer from the same health-based stat penalties that your characters do - an enemy with low health is basically useless (and might already be actively fleeing). In fact, there's even a legitimate strategy where you leave the last enemy alive at a sliver of health so you can spam the 'rest' button to recover some health. You are correct in this case - I had forgotten about that entirely - but by and large this is true. Mind you, that's not praise... I very much wish that more games allowed for debuffs, DoTs etc
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Oct 26, 2021 23:43
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The chapter title was clearly chosen as a clever alliteration that sounds good but says bugger all about the actual game.
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Oct 27, 2021 15:22
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One would think that a spell called 'Dragon's Breath' would involve fire in some form, but what do I know? Purple, is there a comprehensive list of word chests for this game somewhere?
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Oct 28, 2021 02:11
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1) It's no surprise that this game has never been released in any other languages. Even putting aside, the word-chests, this would be a rough translation job. 2) I have heard the word 'enfeoffed' before, but never seen it written down. I had it entirely wrong in my head. 3) Apparently I don't the inside of my shoe very well. I once found the USB dongle to my wireless headset in an old trainer.
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Nov 4, 2021 02:27
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The thing about the relative value of elven (and dwarven) children actually cames up in the books several times. Bog-standard fantasy etc etc, but elves and dwarves live a long time yet only have one or two children a century, so every loss in war etc is a big deal. Art imitates life in that humans reproduce rapidly, push everyone out and then act like the wronged party if anyone complains.
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Nov 11, 2021 17:14
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I just wanted to share a hard-core moment as I just finished rereading Murder in LaMut. It's set well before this game during the war between the Tsurani and the Kingdom. The book is set around three jaded mercenaries, who at one point caught a Tsurani officer who deliberately set fire to a a wood. They stuffed his mouth full of acorns and buried him alive in a shallow grave so that new oaks would grow from his corpse. Blimey
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Nov 14, 2021 20:39
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I must confess, having neither played the game for read the novel I was surprised by that plot twist about the lost child.
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Nov 16, 2021 20:31
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I'm an easy mark for games with random, often very modest loot. I can climb a mountain to find a pair of warm socks, two bent coppers, a tin of peas and a confused goat and think that it was a wonderful adventure. (I do like peas) Question: Does this game have, or not, a spell to provide light in dark places? If so, what is it called? If not, forget I asked. Lastly, speedrunners are... curious people. I mean that in every sense of the word.
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Nov 18, 2021 02:53
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PurpleXVI posted:It actually has two! Candle Glow for indoors areas and Stardusk for outdoors areas. I knew that you had mentioned such, but I looked at a spell list for the game and it didn't mention either. Odd things to miss. Also, it's 3 AM in Denmark. Go to bed, Purple.
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Nov 18, 2021 03:08
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There might be contrary accounts in the later books, but all I have read is that when a Moredhel 'returns' to the Eledhel people it's a cause for great rejoicing and very rare... only about once every many decades. After that point, again as far I have read, Moredhel are treated as well as any other Eledhel. In the book Honoured Enemy, a returned Moredhel points out that, while an Eledhel and Moredhel cannot have a child together, a returned Moredhel and a born Eledhel can. At least in the early books, the differences between those two branches of the elven people are rather complicated.
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Nov 23, 2021 19:50
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Schwartzcough posted:Apropos of nothing, I really dislike how this game lists your money in [X] s (sovereigns?) and [Y] r (royals?), but then lists everything for sale as [X] gold and [Y] silver. I had this game as a kid and I always thought that my [X] s were silvers, and therefore everything was orders of magnitude more expensive than I could afford. (Gold) soverseigns and (silver) royals are consistent with the setting, but I agree that for anyone who doesn't know the setting it is loving annoying. Not keeping it consistent on both ends of the transaction is proper odd no matter how one slices it, though. JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Dec 2, 2021 |
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Dec 2, 2021 01:48
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Duke Martin saying that he doesn't know why the moredhel want Sethanon so badly, or at least pretending to not know why, is I believe non-canon. In the books he is one of the few who known, including the king, as both are brothers of Arutha who is directly involved with the supernatural aspects of what went on there. A very young James and Locklear were both at Sethanon, but they weren't privy to the final magical battle elements of the battle at Sethanon, just the 'nearly killed by an army of tens of thousands' bit.
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Dec 10, 2021 06:11
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I disagree a fair bit on the role of Macros in the early books, but Pug in this game looks like Rowan Atkinson after someone dumped custard on his head.
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Dec 13, 2021 00:53
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I generally don't let real-world morality seep into my opinion of fantasy literature. Reading fictional work is going to mean fictional values, and if I don't want to see that sort of thing then I shouldn't read fiction. Real-world morals are already horrid; I read for escapism.cugel posted:I didn't mind that while reading the books, but I agree with this reading. I didn't mind because I never cared about the heroes, so them getting short-changed narratively wasn't a problem. Pug and Tomas were interesting for the world building around them. The princes were nobility and gently caress that, even if I'm more accepting of nobles in a fantasy setting (I hate nobility in contemporary settings). I've read the French translations of the early novels; I assume that they are the same as yours. I thought that they were quite well done.
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Dec 13, 2021 16:12
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Your ability to do game after game and put out frequent updates with loads of pictures and texts never ceases to amaze me, Purple. I assume that you're a Danish prince (surely the queen has loads of children/grandchildren) with a great internet connection and gently caress all else to do.PurpleXVI posted:I mean, I can generally separate the two by going: "Different times, different standards for what was done and what was progressive." But at the same time, some authors REALLY just slather on, say, the monarchist longings and loathing for the common peasant so thickly that it seeps through my suspension of disbelief. I will confess that the classism and slavery of the Tsurani homeworld really rubs me the wrong way, but I suspect that the authors were genuinely trying to paint them as the objectively bad guys. I could be wrong, though. Not that feudal societies are grand, mind you, but if you read the Empire trilogy it's quite stomach-churning.
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Dec 14, 2021 04:23
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I did find humour in Pug offering to let Owyn study at Stardock like some kind of fledgling mage after Owyn has murdered hundreds with an impressive variety of spells. That's a bit like letting someone play in the Champions' League after they single-handedly beat Real Madrid 11 on 1 in a friendly match.
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Dec 15, 2021 00:57
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Jokymi posted:I just caught up as well. Brought back a lot of great memories. Thanks for the LP Early Feist, for me, are the only fantasy novels that do hold up from my youth these days, though the Dragonlance Legends trilogy also has legs. As a counter-example, I am re-reading the Avatar trilogy, where the gods in the Forgotten Realms are cast down, in translation and my esteem for it is definitely lower than before. Simply put, too many odd character behaviours, plot holes and the like. Mind you, the ones I remember most fondly are not the original trilogy (Shadowdale, Tantras & Waterdeep) but the two indirect sequels that followed, so we'll see. I just started Waterdeep. I do at some point need to read more deeply into Feists later work. I've re-read Magician (especially) and Silverthorn/Darkness many times, and I also recently re-read those three one-off novels set during the Riftware. My most recent finish was Servant of the Empire, but I started Mistress, read the first few pages, became annoyed and put it down. Of the 30-some novels that he has written, I've only read ~11.
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Feb 4, 2022 15:41
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He has a sad tendency even in the earlier novels to forget lovable characters. For example, Suli is such a well-done character in Prince of the Blood, then Nakor and Ghuda show up, Suli dies and we are expected to be sad when he's been ignored for a long time. Then, in Buccaneer, I was so happy to see Ghuda back, they ignore him for the whole book, and then his death is flat because he's been ignored. I don't know if there were too many characters and he got lost in the shuffle, or if the author was trying to bury him (literally and figuratively).
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Feb 5, 2022 02:43
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I've always found that Feist's work is better when it's focused on more humanistic plots involving politics, war, scheming and character conflicts. When he goes full 'high fantasy', it loses something for me.
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Feb 8, 2022 16:54
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