Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Kikas
Oct 30, 2012
I also just realized - Tails never gives Sonic a lift in this game. They all run everywhere. Like Tails' big thing is "I have a plane" and "I can fly Sonic places" but everyone just uses their legs in this game. Or, in case of Elise, is carried by Sonic.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Kikas posted:

I also just realized - Tails never gives Sonic a lift in this game. They all run everywhere. Like Tails' big thing is "I have a plane" and "I can fly Sonic places" but everyone just uses their legs in this game. Or, in case of Elise, is carried by Sonic.
I'm trying hard to think of an example where it's implied that Tails gets Sonic somewhere, but failing. In Wave Ocean, Tails presses a button to trap the orca. In White Acropolis, he presses a button to open a door (how does that actually help Sonic get over the chasm? Hmmm). In Aquatic Base, it's yet another button to open a door - Sonic for some reason ends up where Tails is at anyway, but I think the idea is that Sonic sits in the big room twiddling his thumbs until Tails opens the door to progress.

Actually, in Kingdom Valley where you switch to Silver, he doesn't actually do anything - just floats over to an arbitrary point which makes Sonic spawn next to an eagle going "thx". I think the idea is that Silver repairs some stairs so Sonic can take them, but it's funnier to think that Silver just carries him through the level. Actually he could just yeet him to the eagle platform. It's No Use!

Gertrude Perkins
May 1, 2010

Gun Snake

dont talk to gun snake

Drops: human teeth
There's so little interaction between playable characters in actual gameplay - maybe they planned on some kind of baton-passing animations or something before realising they had no time to do more than "I'll take it from here!"

Admiral H. Curtiss
May 11, 2010

I think there are a bunch of people who can create trailing images. I know some who could do this as if they were just going out for a stroll.
Re video length, I think I'd go for the split videos instead of one long one but either way is fine.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Gertrude Perkins posted:

There's so little interaction between playable characters in actual gameplay - maybe they planned on some kind of baton-passing animations or something before realising they had no time to do more than "I'll take it from here!"
They didn't have character swapping in levels at all before, I suspect this got implemented early as a great idea and evolution of the buddy system (and I do think it is a good idea!) with a "make this smoother later" note, and, well

Admiral H. Curtiss posted:

Re video length, I think I'd go for the split videos instead of one long one but either way is fine.
Thanks for this (and the other opinions, I'm using yours as representative). YT poll also is exactly divided tho it skewed towards split earlier. I think I'll make an executive decision and split, because it's slightly easier for me to post-commentate over a separate video, and I personally prefer shorter vids. I'm not "with it" at all anymore so if public opinion had told me noooo loooonger then I'd had listened, haha

Also, I wanted to share this excellent analysis from a YT comment:

Leylite posted:

I'm going to take a brief opportunity to talk about something easy to overlook, and nonetheless crucial for a good game. The sound design.

A lot of the sounds on display here (particularly easy to hear during the non-commentated run), work very well! Their timing is on point, they are clear enough to indicate what's going on (e.g. exactly how many times you hit a robot in the ankles during an Anti-Gravity slide), and in general are short and punchy enough to get the point across without becoming too overbearing or annoying.

The lightning shield in particular, has a nice lightningy thematic sound, it's quiet and unobtrusive, and you can still hear all the other sounds clearly on top of it! That is good! Lots of other games do not get this right!

The only examples I can think of where this goes wrong are cases where a lot of events happen at once, like glitchy collisions (in which case, the sound code is not at fault, it is just accurately reporting that a Terrible Glitchy Collision is occurring, probably with some ducking or de-duplication maybe?), and other instances that you could probably blame on scripting and mission design (e.g. it being hard to tell in the Radical Train level how much time you have left). Maybe there are some other examples that I can't remember.

I think it's very reasonable to say the sound (and music!) design and programming in this game is effective and good! There are plenty of other problems with this game, but not sound.

Which I absolutely agree with. Hearing what projectiles are coming your way is invaluable when you're trying not to get hit for Silver S-Ranks, and it works extremely well.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015


Im pretty sure the entirety of Kingdom Valley’s Silver section could be pretty easily navigated by Sonic aside from a set of iron bars at the very beginning of the section which are only an obstacle because an invisible wall prevents you from trivially jumping past them

Augus fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Nov 21, 2023

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
We back in this with our FAVORITE hog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cjZjNfRzAI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFVogXzF9Rk

Every Silver vid will be a double feature. Enjoy and merry Christmas!

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.
Crisis City continues the trend of the edits showing way more knowledge of how to use the engine, and some remarkable bullshit with those under-fire ring trail steps. Having the goal ring just out in space at the end is an incredible troll.

I don't recall the armored red giant robots appearing anywhere else- and I noticed some other robots had red and black livery, too. Is there a term for those? Are they crisis city-specific and I just didn't notice?

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Dec 23, 2023

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

I don't think we've ever had a reason to learn the VERTICAL hitbox of the goal ring, but I bet your head would just about brush it if you just held the hover button.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Discendo Vox posted:

Crisis City continues the trend of the edits showing way more knowledge of how to use the engine, and some remarkable bullshit with those under-fire ring trail steps. Having the goal ring just out in space at the end is an incredible troll.

I don't recall the armored red giant robots appearing anywhere else- and I noticed some other robots had red and black livery, too. Is there a term for those? Are they crisis city-specific and I just didn't notice?
1) I talk about that in the Tropical Jungle video, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of challenges in these Very Hard stages absolutely require you to know the hover trick - that is, tapping the button to extend the hover without losing much or any height. Otherwise, I don't see how this goal ring can be reached (though admittedly I didn't test the vertical hitbox), and there's other examples too

2) https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Egg_Keeper_(Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(2006))

"The Egg Keepers are the least common enemy in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), only appearing in White Acropolis (if one excludes their appearance in the Very Hard mode versions of some stages)."

Notably, White Acropolis for Shadow in the first section. There's more examples of e.g. the hovering robot with the options appearing in its black and red form. Note that because they have lasers instead of machine guns, they are actually less of a threat in most situations!

Admiral H. Curtiss
May 11, 2010

I think there are a bunch of people who can create trailing images. I know some who could do this as if they were just going out for a stroll.
That last failure was just beautiful. Pure Sonic 06.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x30cDitlRO0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZFHuKB1S5k

something to tide you over while you wait for midnight tomorrow

Gertrude Perkins
May 1, 2010

Gun Snake

dont talk to gun snake

Drops: human teeth
Hoggy new year, Simon!

Kikas
Oct 30, 2012
Goddamn, the big-rear end wooden palisade breaking with the sound of weak balsa wood will never not be funny to me. I know it's like "we have a soundbank 'wood_breaking_01.wav' for all our wooden objects" but it's just doesn't fit so badly.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gXvOCd6miM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7RcqdLGvNA

"Let's get sandy!"

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

Those lasers from the giant robots are making me think of Indi Belra from Phantasy Star Online. It's a big, tanky, stationary enemy that turns to face you and shoots its arms as giant missiles. The trick is that if you stand still, the arms will never hit you, and you're free to whittle its HP down with any gun or tech. But they're usually teamed up with other enemies that force you to move around to aim at them, and even the slightest deviation in the wrong direction will let the Belra's arms hit you.

Dabir fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Jan 7, 2024

Kikas
Oct 30, 2012
Wait hold up. Can you check if you even need to open the door to trigger Amy in Dusty Desert? In the blind playthrough you didn't press the switch, just approached the door after killing the big laser robot, and in the S-rank it kinda looked like her trigger extended past the door the switch opens...

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Dabir posted:

Those lasers from the giant robots are making me think of Indi Belra from Phantasy Star Online. It's a big, tanky, stationary enemy that turns to face you and shoots its arms as giant missiles. The trick is that if you stand still, the arms will never hit you, and you're free to whittle its HP down with any gun or tech. But they're usually teamed up with other enemies that force you to move around to aim at them, and even the slightest deviation in the wrong direction will let the Belra's arms hit you.
There's some setups like that (we'll see it in White Acropolis), but often they're just super irrelevant

Kikas posted:

Wait hold up. Can you check if you even need to open the door to trigger Amy in Dusty Desert? In the blind playthrough you didn't press the switch, just approached the door after killing the big laser robot, and in the S-rank it kinda looked like her trigger extended past the door the switch opens...
Excellent catch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNF9Xs-yX0g

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.
Great work, post-launch DLC intern!

Kikas
Oct 30, 2012
Hah, I knew it!

FeyerbrandX
Oct 9, 2012

Silver's psychic, so he just can project his mind through the door to tell Amy to do the thing.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSshgYH81Mc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5nPpgrWqvU

I'm intimately familiar with this snowfield now

Gertrude Perkins
May 1, 2010

Gun Snake

dont talk to gun snake

Drops: human teeth
You can actually hear how much more joy is in Simon's voice when he's playing as Blaze versus basically every other character. She's the MVP

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Gertrude Perkins posted:

You can actually hear how much more joy is in Simon's voice when he's playing as Blaze versus basically every other character. She's the MVP
this tbh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPsQzDR0tQM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ArDk4EGWcw

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Only two more levels of Silver to go wooo (yes I am getting kinda tired of him)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahME64B_Gl8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF4bsvlBnp4

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta
Grimey Drawer

Simply Simon posted:

(yes I am getting kinda tired of him)

Silver_the_hedgehog.txt

Kikas
Oct 30, 2012
I don't agree that there is nothing intersting in Aquatic Base - the closing doors in the tunnel segment is the one thing I remember from that level.

It's just that Silver doesn't get that :v: I cannot believe that they made this level so boring for him, but that's another Sonic 06 moment for you.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Kikas posted:

I don't agree that there is nothing intersting in Aquatic Base - the closing doors in the tunnel segment is the one thing I remember from that level.

It's just that Silver doesn't get that :v: I cannot believe that they made this level so boring for him, but that's another Sonic 06 moment for you.
Yeah, the tunnel rules, especially for Shadow. I think that's about the only time including his own game where him being on the motorcycle is actually good and fun without being mandatory (see: Radical Train).

Now I'm imagining Silver s l o w l y having to go through the tunnel, breaking the glass doors with objects that fly any which way, and I realize why it's not in his level.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpDNl8vL15w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv-LrxDGZJU

Much better level than Aquatic Base. Still kinda happy that there's only one more left.

SatansOnion
Dec 12, 2011

never going to get over the towers that fall over like so many cardboard box forts. lol, lmao

that and the lab are both so transparently hedgehog obstacle courses, completely unusable by humans :psyduck:

Gertrude Perkins
May 1, 2010

Gun Snake

dont talk to gun snake

Drops: human teeth
The tower falls are so silly-looking, I kind of love it at this point

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Turns out buying and then planning refurbishments for a house takes up a lot of your time! Who knew. At least my LP money paid for it.

Anyway...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCOcS9B0ZD0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef_5omCEftU

...our long national nightmare is over.

We've already recorded half of Shadow, so I can say with full confidence: the final part will be much more fun again.

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.
Congratulation on ORB

Kinu Nishimura
Apr 24, 2008

SICK LOOT!
now we can get to shadow's very hard levels, the best part of sonic 2006

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta
Grimey Drawer
I feel like you're being way too generous with your estimation of Silver being 80% of the way to being fun. I'd call it more like 60. Also it's been a while since I've seen any of these Very Hards and drat I'd forgotten that those laser dog enemies are absolutely criminally bad.

Gertrude Perkins
May 1, 2010

Gun Snake

dont talk to gun snake

Drops: human teeth
When Simon talks about levels of fun in this game we must remember that he has spent more time with Sonic 2006 than almost any other human on the planet, and so he is grading on a curve.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

TwoPair posted:

I feel like you're being way too generous with your estimation of Silver being 80% of the way to being fun. I'd call it more like 60. Also it's been a while since I've seen any of these Very Hards and drat I'd forgotten that those laser dog enemies are absolutely criminally bad.
You have to keep in mind that "80% on the way to being fun" still means "not fun". He's not fun 80% of the time, he's 80% of "fun" all the time, and those times can be individually unfun (laser dogs)





ooooor it's just a number I threw out on a whim

Gertrude Perkins posted:

When Simon talks about levels of fun in this game we must remember that he has spent more time with Sonic 2006 than almost any other human on the planet, and so he is grading on a curve.
also this

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.
What strikes me in particular about the 06 suck is that it permeates essentially all levels of decisionmaking. This is especially visible with these post-launch DLC, where there are occasional spots where it's clear that the existing toolset could be used competently from a level design standpoint, but it still overwhelmingly isn't in any way.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Discendo Vox posted:

What strikes me in particular about the 06 suck is that it permeates essentially all levels of decisionmaking. This is especially visible with these post-launch DLC, where there are occasional spots where it's clear that the existing toolset could be used competently from a level design standpoint, but it still overwhelmingly isn't in any way.
I value fresh ideas and clever setups extremely highly which is why I'm so fond of these DLC levels, but it's clear that they are still saddled with the two big issues of the engine being trash and the levels they have to remix also not being great a lot of the time. Silver once again has it the worst because his moveset is so limited, his combat is so clunky, you can't really give him much beyond what was already present in his base game. As we'll see in Shadow, they can easily do stuff like "Sonic's mach speed section but on foot and backwards" or "this part of the level but on a glider" because the two are so similar, and that leads to entirely new experiences. You can't plop Silver into a Sonic level and make it work.

The laser dog pushing the boxes off is a great example of an actually new and innovative level design element being ruined by the horrific physics engine, by the way. And that's not only an 06 issue either. Shadow the Hedgehog has an overall extremely disappointing Very Hard mode, with barely any changes in the levels, except for one level where in a staggeringly bold move they removed the floor of one section entirely and make you do hardcore platforming. It's brilliant, took a lot of effort, and ends up the single worst room in the entire game because the engine is completely unsuited for the challenge it asks of you.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I've started working on the Shadow Very Hard levels - will take my time though, as I did before Silver. In the meantime, I recruited myself as a guest on FPZero's stream for the Super Metroid Romhack Eris! I didn't shout that out last time, but there's a VOD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdDv8xFWWvE&t=57s

As far as I know, he'll also make them into smaller videos, so do be sure to watch this spot:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4049666

(and check his thread out in general! It rules)

Why am I telling you this now? Well, because we'll be live soon (on the full hour):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTc8zVf9tHA

Would be happy if you were able to join us :)

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply