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I didn’t play with the original werewolves but I definitely think the current ones are a miserable design— you have to give up so much to get them to flip, but then your opponent has all the agency to react before you can do anything with them. It feels like it disincentivises you from doing the fun things – playing the cool werewolves, getting to attack with the cool werewolves! – while often giving you no reward at all for doing so. It reminds me of the criticisms of Saviours of Kamigawa and its “don’t play spells” designs, which is a bad place for a mechanic to be
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Sep 21, 2021 09:52
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vegetables posted:I didn’t play with the original werewolves but I definitely think the current ones are a miserable design— you have to give up so much to get them to flip, but then your opponent has all the agency to react before you can do anything with them. You can also play it as a punishment for the sort of decks that want to draw go, control decks that don't want to play on their own turn now have to spend mana or get run over with little ability to respond, plus they can't gently caress up your turns either by casting on your turns. The fun thing is building up a horde and then unleashing them when your opponent messes up, either by letting you take a turn off to transform, or by missing a turn themselves. It's an interesting balancing act that lets them make Werewolves much stronger than their mana cost suggests they should be on the backside (and they are much stronger than they should be, 4 mana 6/5 etc). Plus it gives value to cards that let you forcibly flip, and the original Werewolf design was much worse because you basically never got to see them flip at all if your opponent was being a jerk about it. During sealed I was absolutely adoring the tension of working out when to flip my wolves, or my opponent having to work out how to stop the flip happening by making sub-optimal plays that let me continue to board build without worrying about instants/flash creatures.
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Sep 21, 2021 10:21
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Lord_Magmar posted:You can also play it as a punishment for the sort of decks that want to draw go, control decks that don't want to play on their own turn now have to spend mana or get run over with little ability to respond, plus they can't gently caress up your turns either by casting on your turns. But it rarely plays out like this in practice in this Limited environment because the stronger decks have a lot of card draw/card flashback/card disturb and a lot of power at Sorcery speed anyway. The level of sub-optimality you create for your opponents is not close to what you’ve created for your opponents. Having a 6/5 for 4 that is almost never actually a 6/5 for 4 is also really bad I think. R&D generally moved away from downside mechanics because new players couldn’t understand they were good, but I think it’s much worse to have something that looks amazing – and in a way that’s really appealing to new players! – but then you never actually get it, and can’t control when you do.
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Sep 21, 2021 12:18
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vegetables posted:But it rarely plays out like this in practice in this Limited environment because the stronger decks have a lot of card draw/card flashback/card disturb and a lot of power at Sorcery speed anyway. The level of sub-optimality you create for your opponents is not close to what you’ve created for your opponents. That's the point, you can control it now (you couldn't in the past) you just sacrifice tempo for power. Then your opponent in turn has to potentially overspend options to undo what you've done. As it was before you didn't get to do Werewolf things at all because it was any player playing cards could mess it up. Now to turn it back people need to cast two of their own cards (which whilst doable, is still spending all their mana) and often as the Werewolf player I didn't have anything to play on my turn anyway, so I swung if I thought I could get favourable trades and then sat and let the flip happen. If your opponent is constantly making you flip back, you can also play the red cards that respond to when the time of day swaps and get benefit whilst still threatening with the werewolves, who even on the front sides are still plenty playable stat-lines for the most part. If both sides are good, then the opponent just doesn't have any options at all for dealing with werewolves, and if the day sides are stronger there's no incentive for the werewolf player to take the turn off and flip them. As it is now, the Werewolf Player has an option to flip them, and gets total control of if they flip them, which also of course keeps resources in hand. It also makes the Artifact and Torovald very valuable options for the Werewolf Player as well. The original werewolves are straight up if your opponent has instants at all you're not likely to get to flip them ever, because it is trivially easy between two players to have 2 spells cast every turn. Now your opponent has to do stuff on their own turn to stop you, instead of smugly messing with you on your turn. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 12:23
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You still have to announce all DFCs when drafting in person, right? I never did original innistrad or the recent Zen, and I’m afraid it being awkward going around the table saying our two flippy cards each
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Sep 21, 2021 12:38
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A 6/5 for 4 at common is loving ridiculous though, so yes, you should have to work for it, and yes, sometimes the effort isn't worth it.
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Sep 21, 2021 13:20
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TacoNight posted:You still have to announce all DFCs when drafting in person, right? I never did original innistrad or the recent Zen, and I’m afraid it being awkward going around the table saying our two flippy cards each To can't hide them, but you don't need to say anything. Just put them on the top of your pile so the back is visible, and cover them with your next pick as usual.
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Sep 21, 2021 13:58
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:To can't hide them, but you don't need to say anything. Just put them on the top of your pile so the back is visible, and cover them with your next pick as usual. I’ve always heard you need to announce them on opening but you don’t need to announce if you’re taking it.
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Sep 21, 2021 14:00
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Look Around You posted:I’ve always heard you need to announce them on opening but you don’t need to announce if you’re taking it. It's to basically even the playing field for everyone involved, so that people next to you who see you open it but people down the table who don't see you open it have the same knowledge.
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Sep 21, 2021 14:07
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Ok I looked it up. The tournament rules don't actually have that much to saytourney rules posted:Players may not reveal the front face of their card selections or the contents of their current packs to other
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Sep 21, 2021 14:14
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sit on my Facebook posted:I genuinely don't understand what people itt find so objectionable about the day/night template. It's wordy and I think you could have come up with singular game words for the actions of turning day into night and night into day and made cleaner cards. Also they were (for maybe good reason I don't know I haven't played with them yet) very conservative with the non-transforming day/night cards that only turn it into day if it's neither night/day.
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Sep 21, 2021 14:19
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HootTheOwl posted:It's wordy and I think you could have come up with singular game words for the actions of turning day into night and night into day and made cleaner cards. It's because everything that starts the process starts it in day (because Night is when all the Werewolves are extra strong and under-costed so if you could trivially make it night the person with the werewolves just gets to play one over-statted card a turn instead of taking the tempo loss to do so). Turning Day into Night needs a cost because all the Werewolves Night Forms are (as usual) big under-costed monsters. Plus it makes the mechanic a bit simpler to understand when it starts, because it's day and the only way to turn day into night is the no cards cast, or very specific cards. Plus those cards like seeing it switch, so if you could do it by say. Casting it's day it's night it's day in a row you'd get a lot stronger synergy instead of at least needing to naturally perform the 2-spells no spells thing for effects like discard 2 draw 2 (for no mana), draw a card and heal 1 (for no mana), deal 1 damage (for no cost) so on and so forth.
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Sep 21, 2021 14:42
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HootTheOwl posted:It's wordy and I think you could have come up with singular game words for the actions of turning day into night and night into day and made cleaner cards. So you make these supposed "singular words", then have to put reminder text on everything so that they're all longer and wordier anyway. I don't think this solves any problems here.
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Sep 21, 2021 15:12
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The World Inferno posted:Well for one there's no 'golden hour' time of day which is the best time of day. What do you think it is by default before it becomes day or night?
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Sep 21, 2021 15:21
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:What do you think it is by default before it becomes day or night? It's twilight, c'mon! Vampires vs werewolves. Sure, it becomes day first, but that's just because of Teferi mucking around.
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Sep 21, 2021 15:30
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:What do you think it is by default before it becomes day or night? Lunch imo
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Sep 21, 2021 15:36
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W7 is so good lol. It's going to be Gideon AOZ annoying after a few months but right now I'm having a lot of fun with it.Mike N Eich posted:Man, I'm extremely bad at this format but I enjoy it so much more than AFR. You can draft any color pair as long as it has Black in it. mcmagic fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 15:40
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Lone Goat posted:So you make these supposed "singular words", then have to put reminder text on everything so that they're all longer and wordier anyway. I don't think this solves any problems here. I don't know why you think this is any different from Magic in general.
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Sep 21, 2021 16:01
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mcmagic posted:
black isn't even the best colour in MID limited
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Sep 21, 2021 16:21
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Arivia posted:I don't know why you think this is any different from Magic in general. My point was the current wording is fine, and adding more words isn't better.
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Sep 21, 2021 16:22
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Lone Goat posted:black isn't even the best colour in MID limited the best colour is bREaD
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Sep 21, 2021 16:22
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Lone Goat posted:black isn't even the best colour in MID limited 
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Sep 21, 2021 16:23
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Yeah I'm not sure what the best color is in MID draft, I think blue has really been impressive and any of the Esper colors is pretty strong. The one thing I think we can all agree on is that RG is very bad. Which is funny because it's supposed to be the Werewolf set, which is base in RG. I don't know if that's due to the awkwardness of the Day-Night mechanic or if the overall card quality is just low in those colors. I have noticed that the removal in Green is a bit weaker than it typically is, only one bite effect and the common fight card is just not that strong and more difficult to turn on (The 2 mana fight that needs coven to just add a counter).
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Sep 21, 2021 16:33
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I went to six wins with white/green in draft, so my sample size of one says thats the best combo. Thank you
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Sep 21, 2021 16:33
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Lord_Magmar posted:It's because everything that starts the process starts it in day (because Night is when all the Werewolves are extra strong and under-costed so if you could trivially make it night the person with the werewolves just gets to play one over-statted card a turn instead of taking the tempo loss to do so). I don't think you understood what I said. I'm saying the Celestus only makes it day if it is not night or day, what real difference does it make if the Celestus always made it day on ETB? Sure it makes the werewolves a little weaker, but ... ok? Like I said, I haven't tried the cards yet so maybe it is a huge deal that 10 cards in a set of 277 are a little better. Lone Goat posted:So you make these supposed "singular words", then have to put reminder text on everything so that they're all longer and wordier anyway. I don't think this solves any problems here. Currently quote:If it's neither day nor night, it becomes day as The Celestus enters the battlefield. quote:As The Celestus enters the battlefield, daybreaks.
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Sep 21, 2021 16:48
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It's blue
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Sep 21, 2021 16:54
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I don't get why they didn't go with "whenever the time of day changes" instead of "when night becomes day or day becomes night". I do like "daybreak" and "nightfall" as trigger words, though.
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Sep 21, 2021 16:56
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I'm absolutely certain they just didn't want to add more vocab words. Personally I'd say it's intuitive enough, but I've taught enough people to play to know that the vocab is a huge barrier.
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Sep 21, 2021 17:12
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Fantastic Foreskin posted:I'm absolutely certain they just didn't want to add more vocab words. Personally I'd say it's intuitive enough, but I've taught enough people to play to know that the vocab is a huge barrier. Yeah making two new words to save like 9 characters seems like a horrendous idea. Given all the keywords we already have, which one saves the least amount of space in the text box? Off the top of my head Defender is just "this creature can't attack", though also gives the game a cleaner way to ignore defender like on High Alert.
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Sep 21, 2021 17:17
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Lone Goat posted:Yeah making two new words to save like 9 characters seems like a horrendous idea.
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Sep 21, 2021 17:25
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Day breaks and night falls. Daybreak and nightfall are nouns.
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Sep 21, 2021 17:27
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Lone Goat posted:It's blue Blue is the best support color but all the best commons and uncommons in the set are in black. (I actually think that White is the second best.)
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Sep 21, 2021 17:40
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I'm guessing they'd rather be wordier than more elegant but use idioms, when a lot of people playing aren't native English speakers.
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Sep 21, 2021 17:43
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mcmagic posted:W7 is so good lol. It's going to be Gideon AOZ annoying after a few months but right now I'm having a lot of fun with it. Cat car into wren make a tree attack with car get a second tree is real strong.
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Sep 21, 2021 17:44
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Bugsy posted:Cat car into wren make a tree attack with car get a second tree is real strong. Yeah it's pretty dumb. Chariot is also kind of a littler Gideon AOZ too. I do think a standard format where a card as cool as W7 is the best thing to be doing is probably going to be a fun format.
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Sep 21, 2021 17:45
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Bugsy posted:Cat car into wren make a tree attack with car get a second tree is real strong. I did this last night and it whipped rear end
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Sep 21, 2021 17:47
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vegetables posted:But it rarely plays out like this in practice in this Limited environment because the stronger decks have a lot of card draw/card flashback/card disturb and a lot of power at Sorcery speed anyway. The level of sub-optimality you create for your opponents is not close to what you’ve created for your opponents. IDK I've been playing a ton of MID limited and it's very possible for *the variance* to gift you 6 lands in a row while your opponent clogs up the board with a bunch of Werewolves. Alternatively you can get forced into playing out multiple spells on your turn just to flip the switch, even if the outcome is suboptimal, leaving you in a vulnerable position to once again get run over by burly lycanthropes. The Day/Night mechanic is much better than OG Werewolves, it feels intuitive and strong without being overpowering and adds some nice complexity to games.
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Sep 21, 2021 17:58
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mcmagic posted:Blue is the best support color but all the best commons and uncommons in the set are in black. (I actually think that White is the second best.) nah 
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Sep 21, 2021 18:00
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Surprised that shipwreck sifters is so high. I never seem to get enough spirits or disturb cards to make it worthwhile
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Sep 21, 2021 18:03
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I hadn't seen this but it's interesting that the community pick order is way higher on the black commons than their metrics. I guess i'm in the middle of that group think lol
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Sep 21, 2021 18:28
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