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Doctor Butts posted:Since you were weird enough to re-reg to own the libs, did you also go the extra weird step of buying that red title of yours a few days back that you complained about? I would also like to know what happened to Fancy Pelosi's redtext. I believe the answer would be very revealing.
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Oct 24, 2021 23:50
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If forum & thread bans were a replacement for long probes & bans, why do other subforums keep using long probes & bans? It sounds more accurate to say, forum & thread bans were a mitigation for the fact that D&D moderators have such poor judgement that their decisions shouldn't be made binding on the rest of the forums. Seems like solving that problem would fix a lot of things up and then you wouldn't need forum & thread bans anymore.
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Oct 26, 2021 03:37
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So when GJB said they were limiting posts because they didn't want the thread to devolve into a slapfight, he meant that posting limits were the only way the mods could stop themselves from turning it into a slapfight?
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Oct 26, 2021 14:47
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I mean if I wanted to prove that the lovely posting environment in D&D was because of the moderators, the past few pages of this thread would be exhibit A
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Oct 26, 2021 14:48
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CommieGIR posted:That's called Whataboutism. And I don't think anybody was defending the US's outright Islamaphobic war. Nobody was calling it genocide either, though. And nobody here on SA calls the US's treatment of black men genocide, even though the incarceration rate of black men in america is considerably higher than the incarceration rate of uyghurs estimated by china's biggest critics. The genocide accusations always depended, at minimum, on the idea that islam was being removed from public life in xinjiang, and the associated press recently sent a reporter who determined that that was not the case. Certainly it would be accurate to say that xinjiang is in the grips of an authoritarian police state within an order of magnitude of, but considerably less intense than, the united states. But that is not something that most people would consider genocide.
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Oct 26, 2021 14:52
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CommieGIR posted:Is anybody not in agreement that the mass incarceration of black Americans is basically genocide? I mean given that the US Justice system in general is steeped in White Supremacy oriented towards doing oppressive, genocide like things? Regardless of my opinion on the subject, lots of people do not agree that the united states government is currently engaging in genocide, and I do not believe most people would consider that to be a bannable statement in D&D.
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Oct 26, 2021 15:00
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A D&D rule that you're not allowed to argue that any nation is not committing genocide would kind of own.
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Oct 26, 2021 15:05
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Mellow Seas posted:I think "is the 21st century treatment of blacks in America genocide" is a complicated question and answering it one way or another shouldn't be bannable. mods ban this mf for genocide denial
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Oct 26, 2021 15:10
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However, I agree with my right honorable friend from debate and discussion
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Oct 26, 2021 15:12
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Fancy Pelosi posted:Not to distract from CommieGIR's currently ongoing meltdown, but if all you brilliant mods knew I was trolling from the moment I showed up, why did one of you blank my redtext for free without me even asking? That's weird. YEEESSS I KNEW IT I KNEW IT
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Oct 26, 2021 15:26
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It got us a new policy on american genocide denial so who can say if it's good or bad.
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Oct 26, 2021 15:44
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Cabbages and Kings posted:Over the last six months I have mostly stopped reading D&D, and instead following the CSpam versions of the 3 threads I used to read here, basically because I developed a sense that even though most threads here move a lot slower and have far less actual shitposting in them, the signal to noise ratio had gotten worse here with lots of cliquiness and infighting, and at least timewise this relates to the USPol thread breakup and more strict enforcement of what goes where. TBH I think that cspam is in the best place it or any similar forum have ever been in during the last 15 years. There's obviously some, uh, STANDOUT EXCEPTIONS. And if you miss the extremely fyad-lite days of the past I could see how it might not be your cup of tea. But something has happened that make people try to be entertaining to each other even when they're really mad and it makes the forum good. I'm pretty flippant about D&D's chances because I don't think that anybody really pushing a side hard here, actually cares whether D&D is entertaining or enjoyable to read, so it's always going to be a problem. Or perhaps they think disagreements are the primary obstacle to that, and eliminating disagreements by limiting the points of view expressable is some kind of solution.
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Oct 26, 2021 16:10
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Like just for point of reference, most long-running threads have 12-18 hour long derails periodically that have a long tail for a few days after that of people discussing it for a few posts at a time. That's normal. It's not actually a problem. It's even fun, you get to learn about the thread regulars in another context and build some sense of community. I can understand wanting to mitigate a rage spiral when it happens but chat threads here in D&D seem to be interested in pre-emptively stopping rage spirals by setting a hard time limit on individual topics. That's not how big threads are supposed to work and it makes the thread really stilted to read. The rule is if you want to talk about something else, don't bitch, talk about something else. Having two conversations at once is really annoying and the thread tends to jettison the less relevant one on its own eventually. Mods don't need to facilitate this process. Mods here see themselves as the framework through which conversations happen in and not as a giant hook that drags bad poo poo off stage.
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Oct 26, 2021 16:17
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Mellow Seas posted:I think people who post in D&D are mostly people who don't like going out of their way to share their thoughts on something they care about and getting "lmao" (or 10 "lmaos") as a response. I think they're hardly unique in the world in that respect. I don't care if that makes us "soft" or loses us internet cred or whatever. How would it be better to receive 10 heavily-sourced effort posts? Or more likely, 1 heavily-sourced effort post and 9 people kind of trying to do that, poorly? There's really only two possibilities here: "post lmao with more words and I promise not to get mad (i will get mad)" or "stop disagreeing with me, on the internet". And these are, shockingly, two very common brands of D&D posting.
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Oct 26, 2021 16:54
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KirbyKhan posted:I was shouted down from Doomsday Econ for posting about the QCS thread, so the barometer for non-succzone engagement of dnd drama is 0% interest. don't forget how are u. We don't count him as a chain probe because that was just CSPAM IKs delivering the retribution he should have gotten in the #metoo thread, but he does post regularly & get made fun of. There's a couple periodic guys in the china thread, although most filtered out after the AP article, and "shouting down" there comprises mostly "getting a really good argument in response and then vanishing" and "everyone empty quoting a really good dunk"
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Oct 26, 2021 16:57
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UCS Hellmaker posted:nope, we were right and it was a forumwide opinion that he was a loving ghoul. again its people like you that want to denounce anything bad about china as fake. China is doing the same thing the US did to the native americans, and Canadians did to the first nation population. Its genocide China is not mass-murdering anyone.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:34
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Main Paineframe posted:The staff are generally extremely worried about even the slightest risk of anything that might discourage people from reporting. Probating someone for reporting is permitted only with admin permission. twice as many people are in cspam at any given time
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Oct 26, 2021 17:47
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Mellow Seas posted:Sometimes it feels like when people say "the CSPAM thread about [x] is better" they're saying "the CSPAM thread about [x] has less posts that I disagree with." It generally seems like your perception of D&D is "the place where I can post my opinions but people can't make fun of me for them". I don't know that this is a sustainable way for D&D to operate. For any given standard of posting, there is a way to make fun of you within the rules. Finding a way to codify not making fun of posters even if it's really clever and civil and involves a lot of sources or whatever is kind of what has led D&D to this point. I think a lot of the emnity towards cspam posters here comes down to "why do those guys have to come in here, they already have a place where people don't make fun of them"
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Oct 26, 2021 18:06
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Deteriorata posted:And that's the fundamental disconnect here. You're more than welcome to come and express any opinion you like. Just do it politely and respectfully, and have some evidence to back up your points. Mellow Seas posted:Have you considered that maybe people differ on what is "clever" and what is "civil"? And that maybe something that's "clever and civil" when directed at your posting enemies is just "being an rear end in a top hat" when it's coming from them?
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Oct 26, 2021 18:19
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Hard to argue it's all about decorum when there's a guy on this exact page arguing you shouldn't be allowed to make fun of him at all, in any terms.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:20
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How are u posted:Who is that? The guy I quoted. It's in the post directly above the one you're responding to.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:22
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Mellow Seas posted:Yes, I think people who are posting with the goal of making other people feel bad, and treat posting like a contest, are not the people I want to be talking about anything with. You got me. And by contrast, deteriorata says you can do that as long as you put effort into it and are polite. These are two contradictory points of view, and I am pointing out the contradiction.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:25
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Mellow Seas posted:Absolutely stunning that you can't even conceive of the idea of polite disagreement, and how it might foster a better posting atmosphere than trying to get owns. Stunning. Someone arguing that polite disagreement is impossible? Mellow Seas posted:Have you considered that maybe people differ on what is "clever" and what is "civil"? And that maybe something that's "clever and civil" when directed at your posting enemies is just "being an rear end in a top hat" when it's coming from them? Huh.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:27
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Mellow Seas posted:Dude, you're all over the place. Done discussing this with you. Have a nice day Yeah, I bet.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:29
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D&D is the place for stoic posting
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Oct 26, 2021 18:39
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I think having the the thread is nice and keeping it open is good, and it is good not to close it so that people can give their opinions about bad modding and bad mods. I don't know why the state of the thread was considered so beyond the pale that somebody had to put their foot down, though.
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Oct 26, 2021 20:48
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fool of sound posted:Yeah I agree that this is a major problem. The problem is there's a consistent tension between posters who feel that it's unfair when people do not assume good faith on their part, and posters who feel that they shouldn't have to humor people who they have determined to be posting in bad faith. Sometimes these are the same posters. I earnestly don't know how best to deal with this. I think step one is to stop interpreting any friction as a problem that needs a solution. If a bunch of people arguing, even indecorously or loudly, inherently needs a moderator response, then it's normal & natural that the situation becomes a game of jenga for you where you're like "how can I resolve this situation by removing the fewest people". You can't solve this issue if you're still asking yourself that question.
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Oct 26, 2021 20:55
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fool of sound posted:That sure is a lot of words to call me a patholical liar, MSDOS. It's funny that you would call anyone pathological when you've spent the entire last year of your posting exclusively complaining about D&D in other forums. Don't post in this thread again. 
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Oct 26, 2021 23:01
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The thing about derails is that if other posters start to move on and there's words left unsaid then posters will start their own threads, on their own, without needing to be directed to do so by mods. I would say that getting people to talk about something if they want the thread to talk about it is the bare minimum absolute easiest thing you could do to change the posting culture for the better since it's bog standard IK behavior literally everywhere else in the forums.
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Oct 26, 2021 23:03
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CommieGIR posted:The problem is that doesn't seem to happen here as often. In fact most of the new threads were made by mods it seems like. Like I said: Its weird that nobody feels like they can open their own threads here. Yes in this forums where derails get shunted to a new thread by moderators, new threads are broadly started at moderator instructions. I do not agree that the outcome is weird.
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Oct 26, 2021 23:10
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no surprise there, free larry
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Oct 27, 2021 00:30
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Pobrecito posted:golden retrievers are great, everyone loves them. but theyre dumb as hell and absolutely should not be in charge of anything at all. Wait, seriously?! Uh, I gotta go into work.
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Oct 27, 2021 03:15
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:One request I have is for toxxes to be brought back. I used to be a big, goad people into toxxing on their prediction guy, but people almost never take the bait. I remember really drilling people who were swearing up down left and right that those dick pics were not Anthony Weiner, that it was physically impossible. But they would not bet their 10bux against mine.
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Oct 27, 2021 08:14
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fool of sound posted:You have 15 posts outside of this thread in D&D over the last 7 years, and none at all in the last year and a half. I'm not going to kick you or others out over this but tbh I'm only really interested in hearing from people who have participated in D&D alongside at least most of the current moderation team. I thought the current ruleset was specifically about hearing from people who don't post here but lurk?
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Oct 27, 2021 20:21
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In my ideal Actually Debate forum, replies would be forbidden. You would not be able to reply to a thread, and the quote bbcode would not work. All conversations would have to be like 1830s pamphlet wars, just posting an entirely new thread introducing the person you are taking down and then picking apart their argument over 20,000 words.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:31
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How are u posted:That sounds pretty wildly unenjoyable to me. Maybe we could set up a new Debate forum for folks who would like to post like that, and change this one into Current Events and just keep it a nice, polite, relaxed place to chat about current events. I don't think anybody would like it, but there's not enough weird poo poo on the internet anymore. Anyway yeah I think probably people should just be honest that this isn't likely to turn into a place for effort posts in the near future & as time goes on more of that stuff will be in cspam. If you're happy with that then I'm happy with it.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:40
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enki42 posted:I honestly don't see why D&D has to be explicitly liberal. Every regional thread and a bunch of topical threads does fine accommodating multiple voices (well, left of center-left), are we seriously going to have to redefine the forum because of a US exceptionalism argument? Because ultimately serious debate has to get to the bottom of why people believe what they do. There is a difference in belief between two posters and even if we accept beforehand that their views are both alike in dignity, the difference comes from various assumptions and short cuts in reasoning and being misinformed or just confused or just miscommunication. You can't have a serious debate where these things aren't on the table to be discussed. So you have to be okay with either friction or homogeny. Or you could just not dig too deep into things and keep discussion light. If you refuse to accept any of these options then the thread will whip back and forth between them. There are a lot of people here who, if you made them choose, they'd choose homogeny and I think that's just fine. The moderators insist on not deciding that they're going to have a space with none of the above, despite the fact that they have never been able to accomplish this, ever. The non-uspol threads get by because they are willing to make a loving decision, even if only subconsciously.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:45
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The news thread is not the place for you to debate the finer points of each posters belief and they are not required to engage with you. I think it's completely reasonable to say that this is not the place for debate, but you can see from jeffrey's conclusions, posted above, that he wants to double down on this being a place for serious effortful politics posting. This is going to happen with, what, zero adversarial engagement between posters? You want a place with less friction. Like I said, that's fine. But that is contrary to what has been posted as the direction of D&D, by the owner of this site, just a page earlier.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:49
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"I want it all in one bag, but I don't want the bag to be too heavy". You will have to choose between serious, effortful posting, and friction-free newsfeed poo poo. You can't have both. It seems like most of the actual current-day participants of D&D prefer the latter. Even the smaller threads that are easy to moderate are easier to moderate because they actively choose to foster that environment. Jeffrey says he wants something different. I think most people are ignoring htat because that's what the SA staff always ays at the end of these threads & nothing ever happens to change things so the current D&D posters know there's no risk of Jeffrey getting what he wants.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:51
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 06:24 |
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is pepsi ok posted:This is a better version of what I was trying to say and I probably shouldn't have mentioned the Democrats. But this post nails it. If you really want this to be a debate forum with varied views you need to understand that there are two ideological factions on this site with fundamentally irreconcilable beliefs. So you can have a debate forum with non-stop mudslinging, or you can have an ideologically homogeneous current events chat forum. Those are your options. What you can't have is a debate forum where everyone gets along and no amount of rules or bans or feedback threads are gonna change that. I think it's fine to say that there's a range of behaviors that you can engage in even as you question a poster's priors and that some of them can be considered unacceptable and some of htem can be considered acceptable. But if you go through the posts by how are u and mellow seas in this thread, it's pretty clear that they do not want their priors interrogated. And I think that's a pretty clear indication that they are not interested in debate. So how are you going to have a forum that's about debate where they are among the most prolific posters? Heck Yes! Loam! posted:That's what the other threads are for... fool of sound posted:There is place for serious debate, but A) it's not in the news thread, and B) the mods aren't going to compel someone do debate to another poster's satisfaction. This is an asynchronous, open, minimally formatted medium. This isn't Lincoln-Douglas debate. Nobody is going to declare winners and losers, and people aren't always going to gracefully admit defeat and change their minds. That isn't what this forum is for. Debate is an educational exercise both for the participants and audience. Yes, nobody is forced to participate in debate. That is my point. You plan to have a debate forum where people by and large do not want to debate. So given that they are not going to be forced, how successful do you foresee that being?
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Oct 27, 2021 20:57
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