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The symptom is ideological moderation. The root cause is that conservatives, liberals, and leftists are all going to interpret bad faith, trolling, and harassment differently. D&D is overwhelmingly liberals who believe that the Democratic Party is a force for good. Leftists believe the opposite and criticize Democrats, which is interpreted as harassment, which is reported, which is moderated upon. These two groups hate each other and are going to fight. D&D can either be a "chill place for calm debate" or "inclusive of all political leanings" but not both. The whole reason this thread exists is because mods prefer the former over the latter.
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Oct 30, 2021 17:34
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 15:18 |
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fool of sound posted:Not to put you specifically on the spot, but this sort of argument, arguments about the exact definitions of politically charged terms, have a serious tendency to overwhelm actual productive discussion in D&D. Is-this-iberal-or-leftist is a common one, but is-this-genocide-or-force-assimilation is also a favorite, as is is-this-neocolonialism-or-imperialism or is-this-bad-reporting-or-propaganda. Often, arguments about these loaded terms come down to forums tribalism, and thus become both vicious and pointless. I really wish people were more willing to change their word choice in favor of actually discussing the facts of the matter. It's not as though there aren't a ton of different flavors of liberals and leftists, and a poster describing the positions they hold is way more productive than arguing about what they're allowed to call their beliefs. Liberalism attempting to co-opt leftism is a substantial point of contention within leftist spheres. There is a line of reasoning that the Democratic Party itself exists to defang and steal momentum from leftist causes. Agreeing on what terms mean is productive discussion, which is why Raenir Salazar saying "D&D is overwhelmingly leftist" needs to be addressed. Liberals are not leftists. Even Bernie/AOC/Dem Socialists are not leftists. And that they self-identify as leftists and socialists goes to my first point. Some are going to interpret this as pointless wheedling, but I guarantee nobody would be attempting to shut down this line of discussion if a conservative rolled in here and accused liberals of being communists.
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Oct 30, 2021 18:59
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fool of sound posted:My issue isn't if people want to call Raenir Salazar a liberal and he wants to call himself a leftist. Feel free. The problem is when the argument over which label is true overtakes whatever productive argument they are having about, say, welfare versus state capitalism. It matters in the context of the argument. My point is "there are two factions here with conflicting ideologies that are hostile to one another" and his point was "We're all leftists, if someone is hostile its because they're an rear end in a top hat". It's an underhanded way of arguing for moderation against leftists because ultimately leftists, having no representation in the government, are going to be attacking those in power. Liberals can (and do) claim this as unwarranted hostility and argue for the leftists being moderated against.
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Oct 30, 2021 19:32
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Yeah, and this is part of the "shared reality" that I mentioned in the QCS thread: if two people aren't even able to agree on which sources are trustworthy vs. which ones require enormous scrutiny, any other conversation between them, regardless of topic, is extremely unlikely to get anywhere. This is a perfect example of my points. You don't believe that overthrowing democratically elected governments or funding death squads should be considered criminality. Leftists do, for good reasons such as "they're murdering leftists and installing fascist governments in their place". And your casual support for an institution which murders my ideological brethren makes me want to be extremely hostile to your lovely ideology, which is going to get the mods called on me.
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Oct 30, 2021 19:38
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:My point is not that the CIA does not commit heinous acts that should be universally denounced, but that the assertion that it is not an intelligence agency is just profoundly wrong. Intelligence agencies in the modern era have many responsibilities, and spying is only one of them. And my point is that we are ideologically opposed because you appear to be able to divorce the institution from the mass murdering it's responsible for.
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Oct 30, 2021 19:49
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I thought my point of "D&D will never be a calm debate space due to the innate hostility between leftists and liberals" was going to be harder to prove, but then we had liberals falling over themselves to defend the legitimacy of an organization which kills leftists. We even had one poster concoct a scenario to get mad about where he imagined that I would say "gently caress joe biden for not dismantling it yesterday". The prosecution rests.
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Oct 30, 2021 21:23
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:The poster you're quoting was banned from D&D after this absolutely psycho post: So what's worse, the real actual violence carried out by the CIA or the imagined violence in my head? I'm going with the first one.
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Oct 30, 2021 21:46
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 15:18 |
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Koos Group posted:Doesn't seem relevant to this thread. Perhaps it isn't, but I'm not super thrilled with ad-hominem attacks in response to my argument.
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Oct 30, 2021 21:50
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