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At first I really hated CommieGIR because I thought all this aggro posting was prelude to him probating me, but he didn't and while he over-moderates now, it's not usually with the person he's arguing with (I could be wrong, this is strictly anecdotal observation) and now it kinda rules to see a moderator, who usually hide, just constantly go hard in the paint. It's like watching someone who's 6'2" in the NBA demand to be passed to in the post every time, you end up cheering for them even as you sigh every time they get swatted to kingdom come. But yes, the ideal moderator is someone who doesn't post that much. The ideal moderator is, in fact, someone not really known for their posting at all. They should be well-liked by everyone, seemingly innocuous, the essence of a groundskeeper, someone who smiles and waves at you while covered in grime and when they softly tell you to keep off the grass with their pitchfork twitching in their hand, you listen. Difficult to recruit from in this forum. Difficult to recruit a mod at all though because, even though I myself would like to see a clean house, the cerebral and not emotional part of my head knows why that won't happen: No one wants to mod this goddamn forum.
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Oct 26, 2021 16:23
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Also, USPol has always been dumb because even when I was a baby moderate who feared how leftist D&D was during the Obama years (absolute lol) I would come in to try and see what people's latest reactions were to the breaking news and be met with people's ongoing argument about some policy matter or another from two days ago. It's not a breaking news thread, it's now not a thread you can have in-depth discussion in unless it's Trump or it gets cordoned off to a separate thread entirely so now it's about handwriting or something weird half the time. It's just too broad a topic for a single thread.
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Oct 26, 2021 16:29
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Mellow Seas posted:People who prefer CSPAM to D&D, but still want to post here: what do you think D&D can do to incorporate the things you like about CSPAM while still maintaining its own identity as a distinct subforum? What should the differences between D&D and CSPAM be? Probate less. It won't kill the forum, it will disincentivize trying to bait people into probation, disincentivize over-reporting, and people will have to defend themselves more and petition to the mods less. That'd help a lot. That includes my Forum Enemies. I'll be a lot less mad with them getting away with stuff if I can get away with it too. Alternatively, go full Ozma-era SA and rule with an iron fist, but SA in 2021 probably wouldn't react well to that and it'd mostly be pointless. Probably Magic fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 17:11
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Deteriorata posted:It's a necessary condition for discussing contentious issues. Nobody learns anything from a poo poo-flinging screamfest. Det, do you think that social security post screeching for the closure of his forum enemies' thread counts as "emotions in check?"
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Oct 26, 2021 18:36
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socialsecurity posted:Sorry I don't think there should be a thread in the forum that exists to harass and stalk another part of the forum. I've literally never seen a post from you that wasn't grudgeposting at your enemies. And fine, whatever, but don't come at me with this, "We're the nice forum!" crap.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:43
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I actually don't like the CSPAM Covid thread that much because it's a little too hardcore for me about the boosters, and boosters chat in general especially within a year of vaccination gets a raised eyebrow from me, but I don't want to actually tangent on that, just make the point that no, I don't think every thread in CSPAM rules over anything in D&D. For that matter, I like UKMT the few times I've popped in because it's a trippy cross between a LAN thread and a politics thread. That's a neat atmosphere, and maybe more of the regional threads are like that in D&D, I don't know, but I think that's hard to replicate for the US because the specific regional user base is so large and, y'know, politics is so cutthroat right now. I will say, the promise mods made was they were going to keep Biden just as accountable as Trump and... that didn't happen. Part of the reason people complain about the topic quarantine threads is a #metoo thread wasn't necessitated for Kavanaugh, it was necessitate for Tara Reade. Same for immigration, etc. Bringing up Trump doing a dickish thing in 2020 got a wave of agreement, bringing up Biden doing a dickish thing gets a bunch of people playing spin doctor, raised tempers, and a mod probating a bunch of people and then saying, "Make a thread about it," where only five people bother to respond, effectively neutering the conversation, the equivalent of free speech zone. The whole, "We don't want distractions," is carefully evading the real issue, that criticizing a Blue Dog Democrat won't require a new thread if it's Sinema but will when it's Biden. That's an unkept promise, as far as I'm concerned, and heavily disincentives even engaging in threads like the metoo one. I could talk to five people who agree with me about it in D&D or I could talk with the fifty who agree with me in CSPAM, and either way I never get to challenge or be challenged. Well, my choice is made, eh?
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Oct 26, 2021 19:08
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Anyway, you guys should watch Dune. Peace.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:31
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I've had good interactions with CommieGIR over pms for what it's worth.
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Oct 26, 2021 22:53
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Tibalt posted:I like how everyone forgets about the game show certain posters made about harassing survivors to ritualistic denounce voting for Joe Biden or prove themselves rape apologists in the blow thread. Something they themselves admit they shouldn't have done and apologized for. I don't know what you're going on about, but you don't get to use survivors as your personal shield when you're questioning other survivors' stories. If you're a survivor, please don't question other survivor's stories. It's as simple as that. Stuff like this is going to make people really uncomfortable posting here. It's not just a meme, it's actively distressing and I was really tempted right now to just ask for a forum ban so I could spare myself posting with stuff like this. Maybe I still should. I dunno. Night's late, I'll give myself morning to think about it.
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Oct 27, 2021 03:34
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Main Paineframe posted:just because that's your personal dream forum doesn't mean everyone else feels that way You really aren't the ex-mod to try to make this quip. Like, the one person after the guy who had the excessive resignation from CSPAM modding, and it's the guy who had the excessive resignation from D&D modding.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:38
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I'm going to try and address what I feel like is the main D&D userbase objections to any kind of change: D&D Isn't Ideological And Therefore Doesn't Need To Change Gonna take a sec to address this because an example that disproves another point also disproves this point. D&D Is For Politeness Unlike Those Rowdy CSPAM Boyz And Therefore Doesn't Need To Change I think Fancy Pelosi destroys both of these points out of the sky. "Well, yeah, they were trolling, but they didn't break the rules." Yeah, this doesn't work as an argument where, as soon as they debuted their gimmick in QCS, it got slammed. If QCS, complete with its QCS Whitenoise Crew and the like, has no patience for Fancy Pelosi, it is very strange that D&D does. A lot of the reasoning behind what is and isn't against D&D rules seems post-hoc: If you were probated, you were a rule-breaker, and if you weren't, ipso facto you weren't. People are assholes because they were forum banned, therefore, the people who aren't forum banned aren't assholes. That's bad logic. It's why I don't love Jeffrey of YOSPOS's insistence that he'll only act if he feels the probations are bad, because context is needed. D&D's problems are like jazz - it's the probations you don't hear. You guys aren't polite! I am a mainline protestant from the midwest, I know what enforced politeness looks like, and D&D doesn't meet its standards. Just because you aren't saying "gently caress" doesn't mean you're being respectful! D&D Is For Effortposts And Therefore Doesn't Need To Change I've seen only one or two posters demand D&D have less effortposts. Most people who want to post in D&D versus CSPAM want to precisely because effortposts will be less awkward here. Also, sorry, not every D&D regular is doing effortposts or even (huge emphasis here) putting in as much effort as the CSPAM outsiders. The problem isn't people doing effortposts, it's sneaking in some lovely dig at an epileptic poster as you're doing a long spiel about epilepsy which, honestly, unless you're a doctor or a sufferer yourself I'm only so interested in. CSPAM Just Wants D&D To Turn Into CSPAM Which Is Why They're Complaining Here And Therefore Nothing Needs To Change This logic seems to defeat itself. People from CSPAM are clearly in here complaining because part of them wants to post here. There doesn't need to be a CSPAM 2. There needs to be a serious politics forum and a joke politics forum, and what we get instead is an organic politics forum with plenty of warts and then a very forced, over policed, unnatural politics forum at least for American politics. I Don't Want To Argue With People And Therefore Nothing Needs To Change So many different outlets on the internet provide this service. You can just go to r/pol. You can go to Twitter. On this site, you can go to Ask/Tell or what have you. There was a D&D chat thread that happened for awhile, I have no idea what happened to it. If you want a safe space, your own personal echo chamber, I don't care if you have a thread to do that. You can make it your own Succ Zone even and complain about MSDOSKapital or the like. Some of you guys really went to town in the Blow Thread, clearly you're not allergic to rudeness, you just are afraid others will be better at it than you. I can relate! It's why I don't post in FYAD, I'm just not that committed to being rude. But I don't think that thread needs to be US based threads like Media Analysis or USNews or what have you. You have to allow some space for people to argue with you or you really are, in fact, trying to turn D&D into CSPAM. And judging by how much so many of you guys cry about ramps not coming fast enough and how the mods are clearly biased towards CSPAM posters by allowing them to even exist in your forum, that seems precisely what you want: You want a CSPAM 4 U. Cool, but encode that, IMO. It'll save all of us a lot of time.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:25
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Killer robot posted:"Badposted" really stuck out there. Horrible mouthfeel.
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Oct 28, 2021 05:52
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A hyperstrict forum doesn't work because the forums in general have drifted from that. I remember when I first started posting on this site, I was terrified of posting (probably a bit too much), and things were in full capitalization era, etc. The site evolves, and while I (again) have no problem with D&D being the effortpost forum, much more shitposting is expected to be forgiven now than it would've been in the past due to evolving relationships between the userbase/their expectations and the mod. Probably because the userbase is smaller, people have more places to shitpost than they did before, or something more elusive that I can't enunciate. Even the sports forums are loosening up on rival puns after years of that being the firmest line drawn in the sand. I think it's a slippery slope to say, "Anything but the strictest application of the rules will lead to CSPAM 2.0." The cure for most toxic cultures on this site was either looser and more diplomatic moderation or, if it wasn't something that could benefit from that, nuking the problem area from orbit, a la GBS 2.0. I think D&D is the only forum on the entire site whose user base is asking for more probations and, like, okay, if that's what the user base wants, but don't expect to get outsiders of any stripe, even the most innocuous Goons with Spoons poster, to join in any time soon because it'll feel like a time warp for them and not in a pleasant way.
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Oct 29, 2021 16:02
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Deteriorata posted:The answer to this is "lurk before posting." Get a feel for what the forum is like before you jump in. I'm indifferent, I could certainly live without them, I could live with the occasional one. (If it became obsessive, I'd hope the mods would crack down.) Like, I believe the criteria was, "If it's funny, I won't punish," which is where a lot of the forums are at... and then we're going to have the one forum that punishes for Onion tweets. I realize each forum conforms to their users, but also, over and over again, the forum has to conform a bit to the rest of the site as well. If it doesn't, well, there's going to be more QCS threads, and they're not all going to come from the rival politics forums. It's going to come across as overly exclusive.
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Oct 29, 2021 16:14
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In CD, you can say you like Bruce Willis as much as you like Kevin Spacey in a film. In D&D, support of anything Trump did was automatically support for his worst crimes, but more importantly, pointing out flaws with Biden during the election was also treated as support for Donald Trump and his worst crimes. These are cases that continue to be made in D&D to this day. Biden supporters seem to object to being characterized as they've characterized third party supporters, but they aren't stopping anytime soon. I don't think the answer is, "Turn Reade into a meme," and the grudgeposting is excessive, but it's not a unilateral offense, if you get my drift, and is also a paradox of D&D's own cultural making.
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Oct 29, 2021 18:22
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How are u posted:See this is where we disagree and it is hard for me to imagine ever seeing eye to eye. I do not think a vote is necessarily an endorsement of a candidate, a vote is a political tool to exercise the small amount of power we have as citizens. A vote could be a wholehearted endorsement of a candidate, or it it could be something much less. No vote is a complete endorsement, not even a vote for myself since I hate half the things I do, but some things should morally exclude a vote or there is no point for debate, campaigning, etc., just lodge votes by people's party registration and be done with it.
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Oct 29, 2021 18:29
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If you want to say, "Hey, Probably Magic, you didn't give a poo poo about Libyans when you voted for Obama a second time," you'd.. be right? I did a lot of soul-searching in 2016, some very uncomfortable realizations with myself. Voting is a morally perilous act. What's frustrating is people saying Biden is a rapist and then, "But I'm voting for him in 2024." Of course you are. This is the frustrating aspect of electorate decisions right now, it's all fait accompli. Anyway, this isn't to do a debate on the thing, just showing that there's self-interrogation going on.
Probably Magic fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Oct 29, 2021 |
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Oct 29, 2021 18:53
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1337JiveTurkey posted:Look, nobody just goes "Tara Reade is a CIA plant and should be shot for her counterrevolutionary tendencies" and expects that's not going to result in a ban. Nobody brings up what she wears or wore, or expects her to be more careful. But bringing up the CIA elsewhere is supposed to be not only acceptable but this sort of trump card that the mods for some reason won't allow. Who cares if it's pissing all over the suffering of real people, there's points to be scored! If there's any reason people keep pushing it, it's because they want violence and want it any way they can get it. There's a much, much higher ratio of cases where the CIA made some poo poo up about what a country was doing than there is of women making up rape accusations.
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Oct 30, 2021 01:14
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1337JiveTurkey posted:Yes when you travel to the magical world of make-believe you can just attribute anything you don't like to the CIA and then declare it false. That's so much more pleasant than actually engaging with the real suffering of real people. I mean, I just talked about doing soul-searching over buying into Obama's treatment of Libya, but go to town, man. Easily my favorite part of D&D is constantly being treated as the real biased, unfeeling, bad faith one here. GreyjoyBastard posted:While fos covered things pretty well, I'm still going to do a small followup on the history of readechat policy. It's a little bit interesting, it clarifies what we've tried, and if I'm very, very lucky it might persuade one (1) user that we're trying not to be shitmods, moderating is just hard sometimes. Honestly, I feel somewhat to blame here because I was one of the people you contacted and I think I was the one who said, "I'm okay with people saying they don't think Biden is a rapist as long as they don't mention or smear Reade." A lot of people, including other survivors, probably wouldn't agree to my advice, but as I mentioned in the QCS thread, I believe it or not try to be careful about how much I impose my experiences on others and don't want to speak with any "total authority" on the matter. I did want more conversation to occur than just, "Moratorium on this subject at all," and that became what happened, though I'm unsure how much mods could've affected that. There've been multiple iterations of the #metoo thread, and the thread where people felt more comfortable talking about their doubts and insecurities about the case from the start was the one that still persisted and the one that had the better conversation. Clearly there needs to be some space to discuss this, while at the same time victims need to feel safe as well. I was contacted recently by a D&D mod who very respectfully asked me my thoughts again, and this time around, I went, "gently caress if I know, impossible situation to shake out." I doubt I'm the only one they contacted (I sure hope I'm not at least), and I thought what I advised would be the best compromise for the community, but it clearly hasn't. I think a big part of it is our media cycle destroys people's collective memories and many people, myself included, don't want Biden's sins forgotten like has been done so many times before. He had multiple accusations against him, more than one, and people have totally memory holed that the same way many, even the most well-meaning, have memory holed how many accusations Kavanaugh faced. It feels like a fight against the brutal nature of news cycles now just as much as society, and when people come into USPol and seemingly forget Biden was ever accused of anything, it feels like a failure has occurred. That's when people question the efficacy of the spinoff threads, etc. How to balance it out, I think, is something that ultimately has to come from group consensus because I don't think any one person has the perfect insight on how to deal with it. I've learned I sure haven't.
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Oct 30, 2021 01:49
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Cease to Hope posted:i am the real biased I feeling bad faith one though Depends who the mods rename this first. 
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Oct 30, 2021 02:06
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1337JiveTurkey posted:The Libya that was already selling all its oil and natural gas to British Petroleum? Like whatever grand geopolitical strategy you're going to ascribe to everyone, Libya's about as economically exploited as it gets and Gaddafi was getting the money. Statistically Libya's no different from a random Middle Eastern petrostate, just moved to the west. That is unsurprising seeing where the oil and the money was going. But you feel things so who cares what that means for the people facing the actual consequences? Like I said before why are your feelings so much more important than what happened to them? In Anakin Skywalker voice: "Now this is D&D!"
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Oct 30, 2021 02:49
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Like, how can you have a serious discussion about US foreign policy with someone who genuinely thinks that the CIA is not an intelligence agency, but an international crime syndicate? You cannot. ...why... couldn't you? Like, the CIA's involvement in global drug trade and the like has been documented for decades.
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Oct 30, 2021 19:37
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:My point is not that the CIA does not commit heinous acts that should be universally denounced, but that the assertion that it is not an intelligence agency is just profoundly wrong. Intelligence agencies in the modern era have many responsibilities, and spying is only one of them. Crime is also one of them. A frustrating aspect of arguing in D&D is how often qualitative analysis gets debated as if it's quantitative analysis. Like, I don't care if Raenir thinks of themselves as a leftist, it's a meaningless term, but that's the thing, so often arguments like, "Who is better, X or Y?" gets treated as something that has to be proven and if you can't "prove" it, you fail. Key point, "proving" people would do worse under Trump's second term than Biden. That's not possible because it's a hypothetical. Yet it gets treated on this forum constantly as something people need to "line their evidence up for," and when evidence is offered, it then gets blown off as not a true "smoking gun." But what does smoking gun to prove a hypothetical look like? It leads to the most impossible to conclude arguments imaginable. So how do you prove the CIA is "not" a crime syndicate? I disagree with the person who said it was an either/or between that and being an intelligence agency, but someone trying to prove it's an either/or the other way around will hit the same problem. This is kind of what I meant in QCS about D&D always believing an "objective" reality - There is no objective way to prove the CIA is not a crime ring, only to show whether they do or don't do crime.
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Oct 30, 2021 19:53
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It was an overly aggressive way to assert things, I agree, but it also wasn't worth a tangent. Though that may be because I have family members who insist politicians are fascist and then when I try to say, "Sorta, but that's not quite what fascism means..." they angrily go on about fascism being pro-corporation so I've just learned to sigh and say, "Probably," to which they say, "Definitely," and then I leave the room. But also, people were trying to debate that poster that the CIA regularly commits crimes more than any kind of defense work, and that deserves an eyeroll from me.
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Oct 30, 2021 20:02
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Lot of "royal we" going on in this thread right now.
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Oct 30, 2021 20:55
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My deeply important thing to say to close out this thread is this: Raenir, I'm changing my, "Check out Fena: Pirate Princess because I don't know what to think of it," to, "Check out Fena: Pirate Princess because it's hilarious." If you like Fate, I imagine you'll have some patience for its goofiness. That is all.
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Oct 30, 2021 23:46
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Beautiful.
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Oct 31, 2021 03:38
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