D&D Moderation Feedback Thread/Suggestion Box - READ THE RULES.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > D&D Moderation Feedback Thread/Suggestion Box - READ THE RULES.

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

I think that Main Paineframe pretty accurately sums up my thoughts, so I'll just quote them again here and spend the afternoon trying to disentangle myself from Fancy Pelosi's puppet strings.

Main Paineframe posted:

SA politics discussion is now just an extension of Twitter. Barely anyone considers "knowing what you're talking about" or "having evidence for your claims" to be important anymore. They just let the social media algorithms feed them tweets that make them feel either good or angry, and then the ones that make them feel the most emotions get cross-posted to SA so they can share those emotions. They don't care whether or not the tweets are true, from reliable sources, or even accurate descriptions of the thing the tweet links to. They just skim those 140 characters, let the rage well up inside them, and copy-paste the link to SA without even the slightest attempt to verify that it's actually true.

Nobody needs sources or evidence anymore, and there's been more and more cases of people posting well-sourced arguments linking to polling and contemporary coverage, only to be responded to by snarky insulting one-liners without even the slightest attempt to find evidence refuting those sources. And that's not even the worst of it. There's been increasing numbers of literal conspiracy theorists who openly oppose the very concept of evidence, decrying it as nothing more than a liberal scheme to make us think jet fuel can melt steel beams. A good chunk of political discussion across the political spectrum is increasingly post-fact, and that's seeped into SA as well since - again - it's increasingly just an extension of social media. People come here when Twitter loads them up with too many feels, or when they get so pissed off that they can't fit their rage into 140 characters anymore.

But that's enough about the whys and the hows. The important part is that the mods are not capable of forcing people to go back to posting evidence or checking their sources or doing any kind of due diligence at all. Dumping contextless tweets or posting nihilistic fanfiction is just too popular. The posters have changed and they're not going to change back, 2016 inflicted severe politics brain on too many people, so there's no choice but for D&D to change.

Well, that's completely separate from the people who not only think that most of the USNews posters are literally actual Nazis, but believe it enough to say that to Jeffrey with a straight face. Those people are just community poison and it's no wonder why most of them have been forumbanned already.

There is no singular D&D community. Or at the very least, there isn't any kind of community consensus. There's several separate US politics communities, all of which loathe each other and don't agree on anything, and then there's the posters who don't give a poo poo about US politics or anything outside their own regional threads and are just baffled by all the hate and bile flying around. There's a lot of will to see D&D changed, but there is no way there's ever going to be a clear community consensus on how D&D should be changed. Someone is going to have to decide which communities will be listened to, and which ones will be told to deal with it or leave.

You're right that a mod shouldn't be making that call. It should be higher than that, someone who's going to be around for a while and overall responsible for things. Ideally, it would be the owner of the site. Like Jeffrey or hate him, he gets to make these kinds of calls and absolutely no one can overrule him or oust him.

My thanks to the mods who are trying to make the discourse better, y'all are generally doing a pretty good job.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2021 20:01

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 21:49

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Genocide denial should continue to be a bannable offense. That it only has been in D&D and not forum-wide is pretty appalling.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 02:16

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Mellow Seas posted:

e: More generally, CommieGIR also seems to like posting a lot, which is fine, but it's probably better for mods to try not to post in general. I think if you asked CG which he would rather do, he would rather post, which is fine, but maybe not compatible with being a mod - probably better to post basically never (like fos) or only intermittently and in a relatively non-interactive way like GJB. Mods posting, even if they do it reasonably, just seems to get people riled up, and I think it's fair to consider accepting a modsmanship as a semi-retirement from postermanship.

It's why majorian ended up being such a lovely mod. He couldn't help but get into huge arguments and then end them with buttons.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 16:35

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

30.5 Days posted:

don't forget how are u. We don't count him as a chain probe because that was just CSPAM IKs delivering the retribution he should have gotten in the #metoo thread, but he does post regularly & get made fun of.

Uh, no I don't? It was made pretty clear that I'm unwelcome in that forum, so I don't post there anymore. That's fine tho, who cares?

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 17:02

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

loquacius posted:

I do kind of feel that D&D's culture has shifted hard into Dem party loyalism as the #1 most important value. They are by no means unique in this; it's a troubling trend which has been on the rise my entire life, but it has taken hold so strongly that, for example, anyone questioning orthodoxy is assumed to be some type of insidious right-wing (or Russian) agent, or, as has been mentioned a lot already, just trolling, and that assumption has been baked into moderation policy.

I'm not advocating any particular course of action here -- D&D loves containment zones, and I'm just fine thinking of it as one itself -- but that's the root of the issue.

You are free to post "I'm voting for Howie Hawkins" in dnd, all day long if you want. The difference is that in dnd you'll probably end up with 3 people responding with "that's a bad idea, here's why" and in cspam you'll get 14 reply of "lmao yeah gently caress the dems!"

If that's all you're looking for then just post there. If you can't handle somebody pushing back on your worldview, well, you don't need to.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 17:22

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

loquacius posted:

so it sounds like what you're saying is the main difference between the two populations is whether Dem party loyalism is the #1 most important value

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 17:28

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

I'm 100% in favor of rebranding dnd as politics chat, because man some people seem to get so incredibly worked up at the idea that it's a "big boy debate zone" and cannot seem to let go of it.

It's always been chatting with a modicum of effort, and less whitenoise posting. There is no Winner Of The Debate.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 17:34

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

30.5 Days posted:

It generally seems like your perception of D&D is "the place where I can post my opinions but people can't make fun of me for them".

This is what dnd should be. Post your opinions, be able to handle pushback on them, don't just shitpost and whitenoise post if you disagree.

If you want to shitpost all over people you disagree with well there's a forum for that. If you find that there aren't people you disagree with over there well then you have an echo chamber. Nothing wrong with that, but don't get all grumpy that you don't have anybody to poo poo on in the shitposting forum.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 18:10

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

30.5 Days posted:

Hard to argue it's all about decorum when there's a guy on this exact page arguing you shouldn't be allowed to make fun of him at all, in any terms.

Who is that?

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 18:21

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

loquacius posted:

The idea that it doesn't really matter what you say as long as you're polite about it is a big problem with American politics btw

You can be as rude as you want in cspam. Go for it, be really mean. Just let em have it with both barrels.

Let's just try to avoid that type of aggro posting in here, for people who don't care for it.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 18:33

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

30.5 Days posted:

D&D is the place for stoic posting

Sure, that sounds pretty good. It's good to have a place like this.

There's a whole other forum for hooting and hollering and shitposting.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 18:43

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

If the ideology is "weird hyper-aggro posting is not allowed" then I'm 100% down for heavy handed ideological enforcement.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 23:32

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

Is Democrat party actually getting probed for being said? I've always seen it as more of something that gets other posters angry vs something the mods are handing out probes for.

It's about as clear an indicator that the user is not in fact looking to have a conversation but rather wants to stir up poo poo and make people mad as you can get.

It's not the word, it's the intent of the person using the word. It's the intent of "I don't respect you and refuse to use the correct words just to piss you off."

# ¿ Oct 26, 2021 23:59

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

30.5 Days posted:

In my ideal Actually Debate forum, replies would be forbidden. You would not be able to reply to a thread, and the quote bbcode would not work. All conversations would have to be like 1830s pamphlet wars, just posting an entirely new thread introducing the person you are taking down and then picking apart their argument over 20,000 words.

That sounds pretty wildly unenjoyable to me. Maybe we could set up a new Debate forum for folks who would like to post like that, and change this one into Current Events and just keep it a nice, polite, relaxed place to chat about current events.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2021 20:35

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

30.5 Days posted:

I don't think anybody would like it, but there's not enough weird poo poo on the internet anymore. Anyway yeah I think probably people should just be honest that this isn't likely to turn into a place for effort posts in the near future & as time goes on more of that stuff will be in cspam. If you're happy with that then I'm happy with it.

I will be 100% genuinely and sincerely happy if all the folks who come in and say stuff like "cspam is great, it's the best place for posting, its way better than dnd, i love posting there" just....keep posting there. You have a great place to post and you love it, great! Let different spaces be different spaces.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2021 20:42

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

1337JiveTurkey posted:

Maybe it's unfair to certain posters but if someone's been hanging out in some forum for literal years at this point and can't say what they want instead of attacking what they don't want, maybe they don't have a good idea of what should be done.

I, personally, want a relaxed politics and current events discussion forum where people can 1) treat each other politely and 2) handle disagreements of opinion and/or analysis like grown-up adults.

I don't actually care about debating. I know I'm not going to change the mind of, say, a poster who professes to believe that China isn't actually committing a genocide. That's so out of this world that I just don't have the energy or inclination to bother.

I'm genuine in saying that I think removing "Debate" from the forum title would be a fine and good thing. Take away the fig-leaf of "debate me! I want to engage you in a debaaate! :byodood:

" that some posters use to justify their insistence that they are doing something more than just wanting to scream at people who see the world differently.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2021 00:17

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Mellow Seas posted:

Yeaaaaah that makes sense. Sorry, I was literally on drugs when I thought of that.

Maybe we could have a month where everybody is required to post...on drugs. :catdrugs:

# ¿ Oct 28, 2021 01:22

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Here's an example of the type of doomerism that gets pretty tired and old, from earlier this morning.

Zero effort, zero engagement, just a driveby poo poo on any expressed optimism or hopefulness. I don't particularly begrudge the poster for feeling hopeless, I've been there plenty, but it's not the type of engagement I'd hope for in D&D.

That's the type of completely unconstructive nihilism I'd prefer people avoid.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2021 21:55

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Every offensive or rude avatar I've ever been given, I feel, has said a lot more about the buyer than about me. They don't bother me at all, but I do think mods across the forum should feel free to exercise their judgment for avs that are egregiously gross or offensive.

I turned avs off in 2014 and never looked back.

# ¿ Oct 29, 2021 02:26

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Cease to Hope posted:

Posting evil poo poo should cop a lot more punishment than posting aggro poo poo.

Saying something like "If you voted for Joe Biden you support rape" is pretty evil poo poo, and shouldn't be tolerated.

e: It's a cudgel that excises all nuance from the world, boiling morality down to some sort of binary choice between black and white.

How are u fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Oct 29, 2021

# ¿ Oct 29, 2021 17:32

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

silicone thrills posted:

A vote is an endorsement of a candidate imo.

See this is where we disagree and it is hard for me to imagine ever seeing eye to eye. I do not think a vote is necessarily an endorsement of a candidate, a vote is a political tool to exercise the small amount of power we have as citizens. A vote could be a wholehearted endorsement of a candidate, or it it could be something much less.

I think the idea that a vote should be considered a full 100% endorsement of the candidate + their morality + their worldview + an endorsement of anything wrong they've ever done in their lives is absurd and throws all nuance and understanding of political reality out the window.

# ¿ Oct 29, 2021 18:25

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Cease to Hope posted:

Again, supporting potential offenders you don't know as part of large collaborative works is not equivalent to directly supporting a single identified person with a high-profile accusation. This sort of argument, that rape culture is everywhere so what can you even do, is obnoxiously common but it is still apologia.

The electing of a member of the Democratic Party to the office of President of the United States is, quite clearly, a large collaborative work with stakes far beyond the personal endorsement of any one candidate's history.

It was not an up/down vote on whether Joe Biden is a good person or deserves the job, it was so much more than that.

# ¿ Oct 29, 2021 18:46

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

The Eurasia thread in cspam is chock full of 'just asking questions' about the Uighur genocide. I've seen some posts denying that the Tiananmen Square massacre happened as well. There are definitely safe spaces on the forums to ask those questions.

# ¿ Oct 29, 2021 19:52

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

I am more than comfortable and onboard with telling people doing genocide denial "you are doing genocide denial". Then, if they continue the genocide denial after this is pointed out, they can properly be called a "genocide denier". That seems eminently reasonable to me.

# ¿ Oct 29, 2021 20:58

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 21:49

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Bishyaler posted:

And my point is that we are ideologically opposed because you appear to be able to divorce the institution from the mass murdering it's responsible for.

The guy said "the CIA commits heinous acts", what more are you looking for?

e: would "the CIA commits heinous acts and gently caress Joe Biden and gently caress the Democrats for not dismantling it yesterday!" have been better?

How are u fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Oct 30, 2021

# ¿ Oct 30, 2021 19:52

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