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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:Lol yes VitalSigns, facts...exist? Yes that's what im saying just teach the facts, duh. Start at the beginning of history, tell kids every fact that has ever happened until you get to the end then stop!!!! just like when i was a kid we came to school and it was just the facts ma'am none of this political stuff it's not hard people!
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Nov 5, 2021 17:19
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when i was a kid we learned the facts. there are two genders. Columbus proved the world is round. the times tables. the Indians and the pilgrims held hands at the first thanksgiving. Pocahontas saved John Smith and they all lived happily ever after. Thomas jefferson said all men are created equal. George Washington cut down that cherry tree and he cannot tell a lie. One nation UNDER GOD Now my kids come home and i dont know what they are learning! it's all this political stuff i never heard of! New math! Heather has two mommies! who the hell is Sally Hemmings i never heard of her now my kid hates thomas jefferson thanks to all this fake political bull poo poo!!!! VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 17:34
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:Lol yes VitalSigns, facts...exist? Was I being taught facts when I was being taught a brutally whitewashed version of MLK? Or was I being taught to blithely parrot "I have a dream" whenever someone dares point out that pretending racism doesn't exist doesn't make racism go away? Decon fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 17:54
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Decon posted:Was I being taught facts when I was being taught a brutally whitewashed version of MLK? Or was I being taught to blithely parrot "I have a dream" whenever someone dares point out that pretending racism doesn't exist doesn't make racism go away?
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Nov 5, 2021 18:49
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Are kids in Texas likely to be taught facts with the passage of SB3 which eliminates the requirement that MLK be taught? Because that's where anti-CRT legislation is going. It's not targeting the realities of CRT or even these handful of anecdotes of "my kid was made to feel bad about being white". It's trying to drag American education into an even worse place than it was when I was in grade school. They're trojan horsing their ideology under a banner of "keep ideology out of school" because of course they are.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:57
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This might be getting far afield for the thread but we can start with one verifiable fact. The current United States government formed in 1783 with the Constitution of the United States. This is a true statement that really can't be disputed correct? But within that fact there are multitudes of theories, movements, and lens to study the conflation of events to make the constitution. Why were women excluded? why were black people considered property? how does that effect law to this day? why was the freedom of press and assembly written in? So on and so forth. All of these understandings, lenses, whatever, help you have a better and more clear view of what happen in history. The way you are talking about history makes it sound not only boring but takes the interesting parts of history away. Being able to critically understand WHAT maybe happening is just as important as as this happened here.
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Nov 5, 2021 18:59
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I miss the times when kids prepared for a wholesome schoolday of learning the objective truth about the history of our country by reciting a loyalty pledge that includes lines about how our nation was established by god and brought us liberty and justice for all
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Nov 5, 2021 19:14
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Mooseontheloose posted:This might be getting far afield for the thread but we can start with one verifiable fact.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:21
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So Murphy is up 2.2% (50.7% - 48.5%) with 90% of votes counted. Remaining votes are overwhelmingly vote by mail and early votes (and presumably also from more urban, heavily Dem areas.) It's annoying that "MURPHY WINS IN SQUEAKER!" has cemented itself as the narrative now because he's likely to win by at least 6 points. The Dem Senate President losing is pretty embarrassing, but it also seems like one of those cases where the incumbent was arrogant and basically didn't bother campaigning (see Crowley, Joe; Nelson, Bill; Brown, Byron [in his primary]). NJ Senate is still heavily Dem and might improve for having a new leader.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:29
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I for one have always admired the Republican party's ardent devotion to teaching critical thinking skills in school so kids have the intellectual tools to question what they're told by their parents and church elders and make up their own minds, and not make schools into indoctrination centers teaching kids to conform and obey
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Nov 5, 2021 19:30
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VitalSigns posted:I for one have always admired
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Nov 5, 2021 19:38
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:See how easy it is to reach a consensus on this issue if you aren't an insane ideologue? It's proving very easy for you to sidestep poo poo that's already been happening our entirely lives in public schools by playing the Enlightened Centrist and hyperfixating on some upsetting anecdotes. Again, I already wasn't taught the full scope of historical facts regarding race, nor was I given good analytical tools for relating those happenings to present-day issues. I went to a very good public school and graduated while Obama was in office, and yet I was still taught the Civil Rights Movement as though Ruby Bridges isn't literally the same age as some of my coworkers and didn't learn about Tulsa, Tuskeegee, MLK's views on public perception ("white moderate") or capitalism (he's a socialist), and other incidents until post-college. Scream ideologue all you loving want at those of us unperturbed all you god drat want. It's plain idiocy in my eyes to fail to recognize the "America is infallibly good" ideology that our post-Cold War hangover infected nigh every public school with. Some privilege-fixated teacher at some school you heard about on twitter doesn't change that my grade school education is far more reflective of the average in the US.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:47
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:See how easy it is to reach a consensus on this issue if you aren't an insane ideologue? My man what do you think the GOP freakout is about Their whole thing is trying to ban critical thinking so schools can turn out obedient office drones, that's why they're calling any kind of critical examination of history "CRT"
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Nov 5, 2021 20:00
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:This strawman keeps coming up so let me put this in unequivocal terms I can quote later: Teaching critical thinking skills and about the various analytical lenses used in the study of history is exactly what most schools do now. It's not at issue. This is not what proponents of "critical race theory" as applied in K-12 schools are proposing. Arranging elementary school children according to their "privilege scale" or teaching that the written word is "white supremacy," besides being aggressively stupid, is just good old fashioned ideology. You might as well teach Genesis to kindergarteners in public schools while loudly asserting that all facts are relative. Dems also had the audacity to tell parents to shut up and that they have no say in their children's schooling. Voters came out in droves and put McAuliffe in his place. CRT has no place in school and I'm sure every Dem official will think twice about saying or doing some stupid poo poo wrt it after VA.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:11
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SourKraut posted:This is quite the take. dont need more tanks. Dont need more lockdown either
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Nov 5, 2021 20:15
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Hey can you two tell me which one of these things I should believe I'm getting mixed messages (1) Schools should teach students critical thinking even if it makes parents mad to see their children questioning authority instead of exhibiting unthinking obedience (2) Parents should be in charge of what their kids are taught in school tia
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Nov 5, 2021 20:16
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Vorik posted:Dems also had the audacity to tell parents to shut up and that they have no say in their children's schooling. Voters came out in droves and put McAuliffe in his place. CRT has no place in school and I'm sure every Dem official will think twice about saying or doing some stupid poo poo wrt it after VA. Vorik posted:I'm sure every Dem official will think twice about saying or doing some stupid poo poo wrt it after VA. Vorik posted:I'm sure every Dem official will think twice about saying or doing some stupid poo poo  Decon posted:It's proving very easy for you to sidestep poo poo that's already been happening our entirely lives in public schools by playing the Enlightened Centrist and hyperfixating on some upsetting anecdotes. And I know accusing someone of being a centrist is standard D&D playbook stuff but come on man. Decon posted:Again, I already wasn't taught the full scope of historical facts regarding race, nor was I given good analytical tools for relating those happenings to present-day issues. I went to a very good public school Decon posted:Scream ideologue all you loving want at those of us unperturbed all you god drat want. It's plain idiocy in my eyes to fail to recognize the "America is infallibly good" ideology that our post-Cold War hangover infected nigh every public school with.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:29
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I'm just arguing in favor of teaching the objective truth *5 posts later* Even if a few anecdotes don't make a national trend, it *feels* like they do!
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Nov 5, 2021 20:33
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I heard from a friend of a friend that thanks to liberals math and science have been replaced with struggle sessions where AOC yells at your kids for 8 hours that they are scum until they cry and their homework is to atone for the shame of being white by going home to kill they are parents
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Nov 5, 2021 20:35
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Twelve by Pies posted:I know I for one am over people practicing safety and keeping their family healthy, I'm ready for people to sacrifice their lives to make number go up for the rich. plenty of death coming down the pipeline when the economy suffers. We share control of the government with people who disagree with how the lockdown was handled. The others are just as unhappy with your world view as you are with theirs. Its even possible your wrong about how much lockdown should be done. The general population is ok with some death to keep the economy from burning down. I understand you are not
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Nov 5, 2021 20:36
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Srice posted:I'm sitting at home, virtue signalling right now and feeling too happy about it. Jealous? why would I be jealous? Theres so many people on this forum who "disagree" with their parents about so many things. But cant do anything about it because parents pay the bills. So keep sitting in your room as a dependant and let the adults run things (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 5, 2021 20:37
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Decon posted:Sitting at home because there's a deadly respiratory virus: vile far left virtue signaling. business have the right to require masks. The people lashing out on planes and restaurants are acting childish. This can exist at same time as...lockdown completely overdone
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Nov 5, 2021 20:38
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The general population is ok with some hearts being cut out on the temple of the sun to ensure a good harvest, I understand you are not and that's OK but there will be plenty of death coming down the line if the crops fail
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Nov 5, 2021 20:41
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VitalSigns posted:The general population is ok with some hearts being cut out on the temple of the sun to ensure a good harvest, I understand you are not and that's OK but there will be plenty of death coming down the line if the crops fail Yeah, it's hosed up but I see a lot more people mad about mild inconvenience than 750,000 deaths. (That's right, we broke 750 guys!   )
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Nov 5, 2021 20:44
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thewalk posted:why would I be jealous? Theres so many people on this forum who "disagree" with their parents about so many things. But cant do anything about it because parents pay the bills. So keep sitting in your room as a dependant and let the adults run things 
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Nov 5, 2021 20:48
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Clearly anybody who disagrees with me that capitalism is hosed up must be a fat neckbeard manchild living in their parents' basement. Us cool, handsome, rational adults realize that you must let yourself be enslaved to our rich overlords and sacrifice your life to them to improve humanity.VitalSigns posted:The general population is ok with some hearts being cut out on the temple of the sun to ensure a good harvest, I understand you are not and that's OK but there will be plenty of death coming down the line if the crops fail Can you believe that Srice thinks it's wrong and hosed up to cut people's hearts out so we can have a good harvest? Sounds like they've got some growing up to do, I'm sure one day they'll become a productive member of society who sees the value in cutting out people's hearts.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:49
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Mellow Seas posted:Yeah, it's hosed up but I see a lot more people mad about mild inconvenience than 750,000 deaths. Nah this has been discussed in the covid thread but public opinion showed strong majorities in favor of more covid restrictions not less all last year, OPEN 'ER UP was a business decision made by the 1% who wanted to get back to making profits regardless of lives, and what you saw was the astroturf campaign that the media ginned up to give the appearance of popular consent. Most people did not actually want to die for the Dow, we just don't live under a democratic system of government where that kind of thing matters
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Nov 5, 2021 20:50
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The idea that "most people are ok with a bunch of deaths to keep our economy strong" is the most insane poo poo to me. Like at best, people just ignore that opening mid pandemic would result in lots of deaths. They handwave it away, "Oh it wouldn't be that bad, nobody would really die from this," or concern troll with poo poo like "Actually keeping closed is deadlier with the mental health and domestic violence issues." They just push it out of their mind that people will die and think everything will be just fine. It takes a real hosed up person to just go "Hell yeah I'm fine with people dying so the Dow won't crash" and the fact that thewalk admitted that they are fine with that is really disturbing.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:01
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:If you were taught "America is infallibly good" in your public school then I hate to break this to you, but you went to a poo poo-rear end public school! At mine we learned about the horrors of manifest destiny, massacres of Native Americans, the failures of Reconstruction, Jim Crow, the KKK, antisemitism, wars of aggression in Latin America, etc. If you aren't learning about this stuff in K-12 in your district, that's a bad K-12. I think maybe if I explain this a different way it'll help. Let's ignore the content of school curriculum and look at the structure. In schools, children learn that their physical needs are secondary to the hierarchy -- when you eat is decided for you, when you can go to the bathroom is decided by whether or not you're able to get permission. Bodily autonomy is conditional and it is right and normal for those with power over you to decide when you get to exert control. Children also learn that punctuality is important. Not simply arriving and doing well, but arriving at a predetermined time. This is not a universal concept, as you likely know, lots of cultures are significantly more lax about time. This value is taught, implicitly, if never explicitly, and it is reified by virtually everything a child ever does in school or afterwards by general societal norms. For most schools, it's normal for people to learn that people who are different are segregated from them in some way or another. Most schools don't have a mainstreaming program, so kids with disabled family members typically won't attend school with them, and if they do, they don't attend the same (or even similar) classes. It's not "separate but equal" but it does establish that certain sorts of people are often going to be out of sight, out of mind, and that's good. Add to that, it's understood that if you stand up against the established order, you will be punished. You will be punished, and it's extremely unlikely anyone will stand with you. It teaches that obedience to authority is good, and that your peers can't be counted on to make solidarity with you in things. You also learn that if someone is failing the class, it's their fault and you shouldn't help them. You might feel bad for them, but if you give them information to help them cheat, you're robbing them and discrediting yourself and the institution. It's an ideology that fits in rather nicely with the way Manchin expresses his disdain for people becoming 'dependent.' Why someone may be failing the class is irrelevant, you are not to assist them except in pre-understood ways. It's also very likely that if you have a minority student acting out, they will be punished more severely for the same behavior than other people would. It's an inherent bias to the system, but that's projected onto the student body as being a normal, regular occurrence, and retroactively understood to be "deserved." That sort of thing is mirrored in greater society all the time, and part of why people are so quick to assume that some people are just bad and deserve their lower status. Like an innate thing. Does that help explain what I'm talking about any? Ideology exists in structure as well as in content. The buildings themselves express an ideology just in the way they're laid out -- these sorts of things are inescapable and may even be unintended, but as the sapir-whorf hypothesis shows (if you buy into it at all) something having an inherent value to it causes people to behave in certain, measurable ways. tl;dr: You can not have a school without an ideology.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:01
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:It didn't really prove very easy for McAuliffe to "sidestep...some upsetting anecdotes." It looks like he lost over them! That's what we're trying to discuss here - a lot of people see those anecdotes as being fairly representative of a national trend, which they are, and are pretty upset about it. Prove they're representative of a trend. Show me actual stats on students coming home feeling guilt for being white as some kind of widespread phenomena, and not some isolated anecdote presented by some mom at a PTA meeting. KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:And I know accusing someone of being a centrist is standard D&D playbook stuff but come on man. lol look at my post history. My account's young and I've mostly posted in the Trump lol thread on GBS. If I'm playing some "standard D&D" playbook stuff despite not posting here till today and hardly lurking, then maybe there's a god drat problem with this do-nothing centrism timorously bringing down the American left. You're playing the playbook I'm most tired of: "both sides are bad but dems are worse because of <something I heard about on facebook>". How actually common are these instances? What are the actual stats around students being made to line up based on privilege? Because it sounds a shitload to me like the same bullshit I have to hear nonstop about my trans friends and their supposed feelings that in no way align with the reality I see whenever I hang with them. KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:If you were taught "America is infallibly good" in your public school then I hate to break this to you, but you went to a poo poo-rear end public school! At mine we learned about the horrors of manifest destiny, massacres of Native Americans, the failures of Reconstruction, Jim Crow, the KKK, antisemitism, wars of aggression in Latin America, etc. If you aren't learning about this stuff in K-12 in your district, that's a bad K-12. Oh no I used hyperbole for my argument.  Yes, I learned about the various racial misdeeds of America. Again, they were presented as an intangibly farfetched past, and they were never presented as a means of teaching how to actually incite change even when we pretended to analyze MLK's activism.Did you learn about MLK's stance on white moderates? Did you learn that he called himself a socialist? Were you given the tools actually used by MLK and his movement? Or were you just presented some times where America was bad and never prompted to think about how those events relate to the present and future? thewalk posted:business have the right to require masks. The people lashing out on planes and restaurants are acting childish. There's no reason for white collar workers to go back to the office yet besides that it hurts boomer feelings and they're bad at Teams.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:10
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VitalSigns posted:Hey can you two tell me which one of these things I should believe I'm getting mixed messages youll need to find something in the middle. It may be hard to believe but parents get really upset when someone tries to control how their kids are raised. This can exist at the same time as schools teach facts CRT might be great in law school. But can also be presented in a way thats too hyper woke
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Nov 5, 2021 21:12
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:If you were taught "America is infallibly good" in your public school then I hate to break this to you, but you went to a poo poo-rear end public school! At mine we learned about the horrors of manifest destiny, massacres of Native Americans, the failures of Reconstruction, Jim Crow, the KKK, antisemitism, wars of aggression in Latin America, etc. If you aren't learning about this stuff in K-12 in your district, that's a bad K-12. Sounds like a bunch of america-hating commies infiltrated your school and brainwashed you. Thank god we have heroes like the new Governor of Virginia who will empower parents to control their kid's educations and stop that "woke culture," nonsense.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:20
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Twelve by Pies posted:The idea that "most people are ok with a bunch of deaths to keep our economy strong" is the most insane poo poo to me. Like at best, people just ignore that opening mid pandemic would result in lots of deaths. They handwave it away, "Oh it wouldn't be that bad, nobody would really die from this," or concern troll with poo poo like "Actually keeping closed is deadlier with the mental health and domestic violence issues." They just push it out of their mind that people will die and think everything will be just fine. Yeah there were onesy twosies at the beginning who came right out and said that (that "human capital stock" guy, the Las Vegas mayor who said workers should get back to work to be our control group in a giant experiment to see who dies) but they realized immediately that this was hilariously unpopular and made everyone hate them, which is why they quickly settled on the narrative that covid is fake or harmless or it's just a casedemic or whatever so get out there and suck in everyone else's respiratory droplets it builds character! Also why there are a ton of videos and posts of people going "oh my God I thought it was fake until my wife died and I almost died, be careful and don't be like me you guys" and exactly zero of people going "*hack* my only regret is that I had but two lungs to give for the Dow  , ah to sleep perchance to dream"And even with all that propaganda polling constantly showed large majorities wanting more covid restrictions not less, even among Republicans
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Nov 5, 2021 21:21
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Decon posted:There's no reason for white collar workers to go back to the office yet besides that it hurts boomer feelings and they're bad at Teams. Theres plenty of reason to have workers in the office. You might have a job where it doesnt impact productivity...much But all jobs are impacted to some degree. That you need me to say that shows how isolated you are in year understanding of the world. A business may decide to keep their staff at home just to not deal with blowback from employees who want to stay home. They balance the lost productivity versus sparing employees traffic, the joy of staying home with netflix in background while you work and being around the kids. These are valuable factors Some jobs the impact is too severe vs the benefits to workers and they are better off pulling people in. That may mean raising pay to compete with other jobs where keeping workers at home is more acceptable. Keeping schools closed is a clear instance where the impact is too severe
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Nov 5, 2021 21:29
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Nix Panicus posted:Oh no, I'm not saying that fear wasn't *part* of it. It certainly was! But its not helpful to phrase everything in terms of white fear, which is kind of a D&D thing to do. I think it would also be useful to look into how Youngkin got even part of the minority vote while simultaneously appealing to racist white fear to the extent he did. Surely there must have been something more there than *just* white fear. There obviously is more than white fear, so rather than assume that was the only thing, or that something is a "D&D thing" just try engaging with the people making arguments instead of whatever caricature of forum drama you have in your head. There not only white fear, but there is also white fear. And yes I know this is a couple pages late.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:30
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thewalk posted:CRT might be great in law school. But can also be presented in a way thats too hyper woke Hey I got a cool idea: let's stop letting reactionaries dictate language. I feel like I've been saying this poo poo since before Trump announced his campaign... but I'm some nobody so I'm just screaming into the void. You know what gets called "(hyper) woke"? Literally any trans issue. Hell my generally liberal/leftist family has bitched about people going by "they" being "too woke"... and I've had to take poo poo from them for being like "literally who cares it's just a pronoun and anyone that gets mad at you for accidentally loving up their pronoun here or there is an rear end in a top hat." You know why conservatives call everything from a trans woman literally just existing to some dipshit teacher doing some privilege ranking exercise "woke"? Because they want that vague, far-reaching mental map in you and they want your brain hitting those pathways as much as possible. "Woke" is one big mental map they've nicely built, and our dumb asses are in here making sure all the peaks and ravines are nicely detailed. If the problem is the anecdotes cited ITT, call them what they are. Some mixture of race essentialist and original sin style thinking. Use the precise language, not some bumper sticker poo poo. But, gently caress it, I'm just screaming into the void anyway. thewalk posted:Theres plenty of reason to have workers in the office. You might have a job where it doesnt impact productivity...much The studies I've seen indicate the opposite; WFH was associated with a productivity bump. The logic is simple: happy people do better work; unhappy people bullshit their way through the day. Here's my real stance There's literal monetary value in employees that feel happy and respected; it's literally a major tenet of my employer and they ascribe it to their success and I work for a Fortune 500. Have a couple WFH days and a few in-office days each week. Be able to go to your manager and say "Hey, <manager>, I'm gonna work from home on <day>". Overall, take things on a case-by-case basis, and trust that you've hired good people that don't need to be babysat because they're literally adult professionals with goals and deadlines. That's where you find your productivity.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:49
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God March 2020 was such a magical time. The 0.1% hadn't got their propaganda points organized and uniformly pushed out yet, so there were still slip-ups where some inbred hedge fund lord would get on the morning show and just say what they were all really thinking "what's the big deal I was playing virtual golf with the board of directors and we all agreed a servant's life is worth at most a thousandth of a basis point off our stock price! Just keep replacement peasants cheap and plentiful and we'll all still get a stock buyback with our bailout money! Pip pip!"  But then they all got behind Plandemic and it got sad. I imagine the media training sessions after those disasters were funny though. "You can't just say we can buy more Irish indentures to clear the bodies and man the machinery you idiot it's not 1850! This is 2020 America, now repeat after me: the numbers are fake because Jews control the hospitals, just drink pine needle tea and storm TGI Friday's to show you won't be enslaved!"
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Nov 5, 2021 21:54
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VitalSigns posted:God March 2020 was such a magical time. The 0.1% hadn't got their propaganda points organized and uniformly pushed out yet, so there were still slip-ups where some inbred hedge fund lord would get on the morning show and just say what they were all really thinking "what's the big deal I was playing virtual golf with the board of directors and we all agreed a servant's life is worth at most a thousandth of a basis point off our stock price! Just keep replacement peasants cheap and plentiful and we'll all still get a stock buyback with our bailout money! Pip pip!" Yeah, both the period after the CARES act and the period after 1/6 show how quickly right wing media (and enablers in mainstream media) can undo a positive consensus among Americans and turn it into just another culture war shitshow.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:59
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Mellow Seas posted:Yeah, both the period after the CARES act and the period after 1/6 show how quickly right wing media (and enablers in mainstream media) can undo a positive consensus among Americans and turn it into just another culture war shitshow. Again, propaganda works.
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Nov 5, 2021 23:04
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VitalSigns posted:God March 2020 was such a magical time. The 0.1% hadn't got their propaganda points organized and uniformly pushed out yet, so there were still slip-ups where some inbred hedge fund lord would get on the morning show and just say what they were all really thinking "what's the big deal I was playing virtual golf with the board of directors and we all agreed a servant's life is worth at most a thousandth of a basis point off our stock price! Just keep replacement peasants cheap and plentiful and we'll all still get a stock buyback with our bailout money! Pip pip!" Got me curious, any good articles/videos of this?
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Nov 5, 2021 23:28
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