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About Dune, I get that the larger book series might critique things like dynastic rule and cool intrigue with nobility etc, but the first book validates eugenics by showing that it works and makes the great man model of history look cool by showing that it works. Herbert might criticize those ideas elsewhere, but I think you have to admit that the first book thinks they’re interesting because it’s all about them. And nobody would read or enjoy it if the truth of the novel were contained in another novel. It’s not like Bladerunner where the operation of the world constitutes a critique of capitalism as it grinds its characters into hopeless misery. Dune is a successful hero’s journey where a good aristocrat trained in noblesse oblige discovers the will to power. Feudalism itself isn’t a problem other than that some of the nobles are jealous of the one that is too pure of heart. I’m ok being contradicted on this, as it’s been 15 years since I read it. The new movie is pretty and very much about being a vibe.
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Nov 22, 2021 16:37
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I haven't read the book, but isn't the eugenics program extremely long-running? That it produced someone capable of affecting great change could just as well be random chance, rather than a thousand years of effort actually succeeding. Not sure how you'd even show great man theory working. Like, the existence of individuals with what appears to be a massive impact on the course of history isn't proof of the theory in reality, so how do you "prove" it in fiction? Because he’s the main character and the working out of the story shows how he grows into greatness by learning lessons and sharpening his iron will etc. Like you can diagnose the gaps and equivocations in a story like that, which might be what the sequels do, but it’s like doing the same with Henry V. The emphasis of the story is elsewhere. The novel thinks the idea of a genetic superman is interesting, and in accepting the premise that a genetic superman is a coherent idea, the novel commits itself to a certain domain of ideas.
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Nov 22, 2021 17:25
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Disproportionation posted:It's this. Paul knowingly exploits the fact that the Fremen had a messianic legend introduced to them centuries ago by the BG and essentially uses them as a vehicle to get revenge on the Harkonnens and imperial throne, knowing full well that it could lead to a future where mass genocide and holy war, and by the end of the book he no longer cares that it will anymore. It's explicitly a takedown of "chosen one" narratives. If he leads them to victory and gives them control of the planet by virtue of his leadership, isn’t he actually their messiah? They’re instrumental to his development into a wise king and he is one of them, blood aside, like Moses or Lawerence of Arabia—he doesn’t just decide to exploit them. Does the book really say that a jihad is bad, or just that wars are regrettable but inevitable and righteous when it’s a good king against a bad king? The messiah thing is 100% real insofar as Paul actually is a genetic superman produced by the totally real art of eugenics, which makes him have way more potential than other men, something brought out by a genteel upbringing combined with the asceticism and harsh situation of the morally righteous arab rebels. Am I not reading that part right? It’s still an enjoyable story.
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Nov 22, 2021 19:07
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Baron Porkface posted:A morally healthy person can deduce that genocide is bad without a Greek choir telling them so. This is Somethingawful so maybe that isn't the case. Does this mean that every novel with a war in it presents a genocide, and by extension the working out of the plot presents the same knowing irony? Again, you can diagnose the ideological contradictions and lacunae in a text, but that’s not the same thing as saying that the author arranged a specific irony for you to discover. I agree that jihad is bad, but if you’re a 1950s guy and your only understanding of jihad comes from Lawrence of Arabia, do you think jihad is bad or do you think it’s maybe regrettable but also pretty cool and the empire deserves it? We’re not super far away from Star Wars here, where Herbert is undeniably a huge influence.
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Nov 22, 2021 23:04
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